Yeah... so? How about we stop stripping the game of features because SOME top top raiders feel like it's work.
Let's put all raids on the same lockout, cause raiders might burn out.
Let's remove gear sets from LFR cauase raiders might burn out.
Let's remove titanforging cause raiders might burn out.
Let's remove gear from any other source cause raiders might burn out.
Let's remove legendaries cause their RNG makes raiders burn out.
Let's remove "paragon"-type of time-based nerfs (like AP) cause raiders might burn out.
How about we just remove gear altogether and just have a passive 5% nerf to bosses every week? That way raiders won't burn out and do raid only but they won't be stuck at a boss because they self nerf.
You know, the staple of MMOs is repeating the same content over and over. You can't strip everything because raiders might burn out. This stems from your top top end raiders who have to do 500 Island expeditions in a VERY short time span to be world first. And then there's all the sheep thinking they have to do the same.
You think your average Mythic raider (which isn't even an average player) with like 4/8M progression and 2-3 days of raiding is burning out doing 100 Mythics a day to get some BiS ring? They don't. At best they'll try to do a 10+ a week, which isn't much different from doing the VP cap back in the day.
Last edited by Loveliest; 2019-12-06 at 09:28 AM.
Stop this "MOP was great" pink tinted glasses crap. MOP was as bad, as BFA is. Including class mechanics.
Because:
1) WotLK -the strongest classes in Wow's history. Yeah, there were balance problems, like OP Paladins, but it was more exception, than rule. But you should remember, that back then tech was very limited. There were no hotfixes, you know. Only fixes with content patches.
2) Cata - flashback to Vanilla with all that "enough mana to barely kill one mob, healers that can't heal, tanks that can't tank, etc.", but recovered by the end of xpack due to stat inflation. Back in old times 4.0 was considered "the best" and 4.3 "the worst". Strange people, you know. May be there were many Vanilla fanboys back in that days?
3) MOP - first round of class mechanic nerfs. I always give mana-burn healing as example of such nerf. Back in WotLK/Cata you could temporary boost your HPS via burning your mana. Wipe actually meant healer going OOM, that was giving players some room for mistakes and at least allowed them to try encounter - not just insta-wipe, like in 4.0. But since MOP all healers had that crappy boring fixed HPS, i.e. couldn't help their party, if it took too much dmg even with full mana. And this is only one example of taking any forms of control over dps/hps from players. Since then it was just simple boring ilvl = DPS/HPS.
Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2019-12-06 at 09:37 AM.
I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.
Oh boy... this word "toxic" sounds bad - let's use it. What are you even talking about? How can a feature be toxic? At best it can enable toxic behaviour. And AS USUAL, you're talking about PUGGING. Which, guess what, is "toxic" no matter the content.
Go clear an 18+ key in a pug without communication. But no, you're talking about low keys - now you're just bloody complaining you don't need to talk to do a dungeon you're overgearing by miles. Complaining for the sake of complaining - isn't it tiresome?
Multiple difficulties were added in the first place because casuals complained that raiding was too hard for them.
LFR was added because even with the dead-easy puggable 10 man normal difficulty that was added in WotLK, casuals still wanted even easier.
Titanforging was added because casuals weren't satisfied with running the same content as raiders. They wanted to be as geared as raiders too.
Alternative forms of progression were added because casuals weren't satisfied with getting sick loot from LFR. They wanted sick loot from roflstomping daily quests too.
Legendaries were a shit system that were equally bad for both raiders and casuals alike. And that's why Blizzard BTFO'd them in BfA.
Which were added because casuals wanted to repeat the same content ad nauseum instead of moving on to more difficult content.
So why is it okay to pander to casuals but pandering to raiders is a sin?
The ones who are not in the 1% but think that they are. Apparently they want to be there but without the work somehow.
And there's also the snowflake syndrome ... "I do mythic raiding therefore no other system or rewards can exist outside of it"
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You're not serious are you? WoW's decline had nothing to do with having more options. Look at how good WoD did which had absolutely no other progression than raiding. It had an amazing world and really fucking good raids but nothing else, and that took it's toll.
<<MAJOR SPOILER>>
Raiding got never harder.
Blizzard just gave us additional difficultys for the bored regular players.
And now the catch, the new harder difficulty, that got even much harder since LEGION, takes more and more preparation, more and more practice and more and more additional help with addons (DBM > WA > WA+PLATER).
You see, the base difficulty never changed that much. Todays LFR might be harder as MC/BWL thats for sure, but its still comerable. Everything else is added on top of that. Not casual got EASY difficultys, but regular players got HARDER modes into the game.
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Fully agree with your point. It's a critical point.
And ppl like Jester Joe, or in general the first comment on mmo-champ after OP are always ppl who have to argue, no matter how clear the problem is. Sorry dude, but how can you not see this problem is real.
Blizzard is currently catering to people who like to play the game and get gear for it. They are currently not catering to people who only like to play a very specific part of the game and complain whenever Blizzard is catering to someone else then them. I wouldn't call that a corner.
"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."
Reading OP's post recalled some old discussions...
- taken from M+/stats/x-forge discussion -
- taken from gear discussions -
- taken from Cata discussion (classes in particular) -
In order not to quote everything with regards to specifically discussed problem, I'll just leave links here:
ps. As you can see, it's not something new here
Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-10 at 08:43 AM.
__---=== PM me WHERE if I'm unnecessarily "notifying" you ===---__
The solution is obvious. Put a weekly cap on how many items you can get; that way you can play M+ or raid and not feel compelled to do everything; all has the same loot and going beyond to no-life the game has no benefit because you reached your weekly item drop cap.
Faster shifting meta? The meta for m+ has been the same since at least 8.1, with very small differences. Majority of push groups are rogue + dh + rdruid + prot warr (now also monks came up for top tank spot but warrior is still there) + 1 flex spot. The meta is stale as fuck and seasonal affixes change nothing, season 1 was rogue / dh / range, season 2 was triple melee but could work with 1 range as long as it had burst aoe, season 3 is again rogue / dh / range with some triple melee teams as well.
The only difference is blood dk was king of legion and season 1 in bfa, then got completely dumpstered with nerfs, and since then it's warrior or warrior / monk reigning supreme. Monk healers had some small appearance in season 1 as well when blood dks covered battle rez, but since they got pushed out, it's resto druid no contest.
Tbh the raid meta has been stale since BODA as well with the only difference of fire mages coming back to meta.
This leaves a lot of specs without any niche in pve, can't speak about pvp, but atm in pve melees that aren't rogue / dh / warrior struggle to find a spot, dks did see some usage in "mass pull" m+ and do a bit better in EP than BODA but nothing hot. WW Monks could be used for the buff, but since brewmaster is so widespread in both raiding and m+ that makes WW obsolete.
Same with tanks, monks everywhere with some warriors in m+ and some dks in raiding but the other 3 tank specs have no niche to excel in.
At least with healers is a clear split, druids for m+, priest / paladin and some shaman for raiding, still that leaves monk completely out of meta in pve.
Seasonal m+ affixes were meant to shake up the meta, yet only affected it by tiny amount.
Most People that feel forced to do content in MMO's are idiots anyway. Either play the game for Fun or don't. If you feel like it's a chore perhaps stop playing.
Content for everyone shouldn't be limited because some People have lack of self-control.
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Because Casuals are the main audience of the game and pandering to manchildren pseudo-elitists is what removed a lot of good things from WoW
Serious question: do you think that, if Blizzard released 'Wrath of the Lich King Classic' or some equivalent, that it would once again achieve 12 million subscribers?
A little common sense will tell you that the industry has changed in the ten years since Wrath of the Lich King, so it's highly unlikely that WoW, or indeed any MMO, will be able to reach or hold 12 million subscribers. Pretending that the success of earlier expansions can be solely attributed not only to game design, but a very specific part of game design ('world of raiding') is nonsense.
Except the bar is much lower for M+ and ability to repeat it without lockout makes it much easier.
Which is something you just keep ignoring.
If you have the key, that gives you the power, they can't do an +10 (of a specific dungeon) without someone having a key.
Anybody can open a group for a raid because no key is required.
If you don't get everything within a lockout, you come back next week.
Do you have everything after a single lockout?
Probably not, so there's a good chance you come back next week.
Raiding, especially Mythic raiding, has worked for 15 years under this rather simple principle.
M+ bypasses this.
They are using the best builds for Single target.
Feel free to check Warcraftlogs, compare them to what Bloodmallet suggest, it lines up in a lot of cases.
Nobody in their right mind would pick SE because that build removes one of the core strengths of Ele, which is gaining single target dps out of multi dotting FS.
If you go for SE, you basically play an entirely single target focused build that gets punished like hell by movement.
And is even worse on ST than the regular MotE / Icefury build.
Yeah, i simmed that one awhile ago.
And if you check the actual numbers and not just look at the massive bar, you realize that those trinkets aren't even 2k dps apart from the best M+ trinkets.
No, it's just relevant to the ring which you are going to use, but makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.
A socket is just +50 secondary stat, that's all you get out of it, whether it's on your gloves is irrelevant, that's your total bonus.
The socket only causes a massive swing within that respective slot, but that swing is an absolute number, which only has a greater impact on a slot that in itself is rather weak, but the absolute gain remains the same.
You need to start looking at the greater picture, not just razor focus on a single slot.
Rings are trash, a 445 ring gives you a total of 540 secondary stats, of course a proc that basically gives you 50 additional secondary stat has a huge swing in comparison to other rings, but that doesn't change the total value of gain those 50 secondary stats have on your dps.
I'm just going to take a random guess and say:
Not everybody liked killing 10 Wolves / Boars / Bears / Zombies / whatever you had to kill during your first quest.
Yet every WoW player still did that, did all of them enjoy killing those 10 npc's? Probably not, but they probably liked getting XP and the reward from the quest.
Progression is a source of fun in games such as WoW, it's that simple, if the most efficient progression however comes from sources you don't enjoy, that's a problem.
Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-06 at 12:58 PM.
The industry hasn't changed on its own. BLIZZARD changed the industry since they completely dominate it. Previous iterations of the game achieved high subscription numbers because the game was set up in such a way as to foster long-term challenges and community-building. People had to commit months to progress from Karazhan to the Sunwell and they had to be a part of a guild to do that. Current game design fosters a "subscribe for the patch and then fuck off after a month" design. What's the point of striving to clear the most difficult content in the game (mythic raids) when you can get equivalent or better gear from other sources and see the content in LFR? It's pug, pug, pug life all the way. When you don't feel like a part of the community, you aren't invested.
you can have balance in all facets of the game(or relative balance), but blizzard suck at balancing.. they're bad at realizing what's op and why it is op, they're slow as fuck at fixing stuff, they usually change numbers too much... or they don't change broken stuff at all despite a lot of feedback(remember warrior taste for blood stacks or hunter stampede in mop? or 8 second kidney in wod?)
oh and also i think balance is overrated and people stopped playing pvp not only because of balance, but mostly because of overall changes to gameplay that made pvp worse.. class design is way more important to pvp in wow than balance, way more..