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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Yeah mechanics in Wrath was dope. I remember on my Holy Pala the only ability I really used was Holy Light. Very deep and engaging gameplay mechanics indeed. Not to mention some specs were broken due to ArP stacking. 100% ok.
    I remember farming heroic dungeons for tokens. As a mage that meant that, apart from bosses I just used Blizzard for about 30 minutes. I really loved that engaging dungeon gameplay.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    And that's why competitive players have to do both M+ and raids to stay relevant. It's not sustainable once people start to burn out (hint, they already have).
    Yeah... so? How about we stop stripping the game of features because SOME top top raiders feel like it's work.
    Let's put all raids on the same lockout, cause raiders might burn out.
    Let's remove gear sets from LFR cauase raiders might burn out.
    Let's remove titanforging cause raiders might burn out.
    Let's remove gear from any other source cause raiders might burn out.
    Let's remove legendaries cause their RNG makes raiders burn out.
    Let's remove "paragon"-type of time-based nerfs (like AP) cause raiders might burn out.

    How about we just remove gear altogether and just have a passive 5% nerf to bosses every week? That way raiders won't burn out and do raid only but they won't be stuck at a boss because they self nerf.

    You know, the staple of MMOs is repeating the same content over and over. You can't strip everything because raiders might burn out. This stems from your top top end raiders who have to do 500 Island expeditions in a VERY short time span to be world first. And then there's all the sheep thinking they have to do the same.
    You think your average Mythic raider (which isn't even an average player) with like 4/8M progression and 2-3 days of raiding is burning out doing 100 Mythics a day to get some BiS ring? They don't. At best they'll try to do a 10+ a week, which isn't much different from doing the VP cap back in the day.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2019-12-06 at 09:28 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Solarflash View Post
    MOP was soooo much better than WotLK in every way. The story is probably the only point where there is debate, and that is only due to the connection fans had to northrend prior to the expansion. Where as MOP was original content story wise to the franchise.
    Stop this "MOP was great" pink tinted glasses crap. MOP was as bad, as BFA is. Including class mechanics.
    Because:
    1) WotLK -the strongest classes in Wow's history. Yeah, there were balance problems, like OP Paladins, but it was more exception, than rule. But you should remember, that back then tech was very limited. There were no hotfixes, you know. Only fixes with content patches.
    2) Cata - flashback to Vanilla with all that "enough mana to barely kill one mob, healers that can't heal, tanks that can't tank, etc.", but recovered by the end of xpack due to stat inflation. Back in old times 4.0 was considered "the best" and 4.3 "the worst". Strange people, you know. May be there were many Vanilla fanboys back in that days?
    3) MOP - first round of class mechanic nerfs. I always give mana-burn healing as example of such nerf. Back in WotLK/Cata you could temporary boost your HPS via burning your mana. Wipe actually meant healer going OOM, that was giving players some room for mistakes and at least allowed them to try encounter - not just insta-wipe, like in 4.0. But since MOP all healers had that crappy boring fixed HPS, i.e. couldn't help their party, if it took too much dmg even with full mana. And this is only one example of taking any forms of control over dps/hps from players. Since then it was just simple boring ilvl = DPS/HPS.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2019-12-06 at 09:37 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Just realized that I didn't mention this in my initial post, but the current iteration of M+ is way more toxic than even the worst iteration of arena.
    Oh boy... this word "toxic" sounds bad - let's use it. What are you even talking about? How can a feature be toxic? At best it can enable toxic behaviour. And AS USUAL, you're talking about PUGGING. Which, guess what, is "toxic" no matter the content.

    Go clear an 18+ key in a pug without communication. But no, you're talking about low keys - now you're just bloody complaining you don't need to talk to do a dungeon you're overgearing by miles. Complaining for the sake of complaining - isn't it tiresome?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's put all raids on the same lockout, cause raiders might burn out.
    Multiple difficulties were added in the first place because casuals complained that raiding was too hard for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's remove gear sets from LFR cauase raiders might burn out.
    LFR was added because even with the dead-easy puggable 10 man normal difficulty that was added in WotLK, casuals still wanted even easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's remove titanforging cause raiders might burn out.
    Titanforging was added because casuals weren't satisfied with running the same content as raiders. They wanted to be as geared as raiders too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's remove gear from any other source cause raiders might burn out.
    Alternative forms of progression were added because casuals weren't satisfied with getting sick loot from LFR. They wanted sick loot from roflstomping daily quests too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's remove legendaries cause their RNG makes raiders burn out.
    Legendaries were a shit system that were equally bad for both raiders and casuals alike. And that's why Blizzard BTFO'd them in BfA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Let's remove "paragon"-type of time-based nerfs (like AP) cause raiders might burn out.
    Which were added because casuals wanted to repeat the same content ad nauseum instead of moving on to more difficult content.

    So why is it okay to pander to casuals but pandering to raiders is a sin?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    So? Who cares if the 1% "have" todo both.
    The ones who are not in the 1% but think that they are. Apparently they want to be there but without the work somehow.
    And there's also the snowflake syndrome ... "I do mythic raiding therefore no other system or rewards can exist outside of it"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Actually the most successful iterations of WoW (vanilla - early Cata) were world of raiding. Raiding was the only meaningful form of endgame progression. Everything was designed around raiding. But for some reason people who didn't want to do organized raiding kept playing WoW instead of finding a game more suited to their style of gameplay and they bitched and bitched and bitched until Blizzard started to add alternative forms of endgame progression.
    You're not serious are you? WoW's decline had nothing to do with having more options. Look at how good WoD did which had absolutely no other progression than raiding. It had an amazing world and really fucking good raids but nothing else, and that took it's toll.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Multiple difficulties were added in the first place because casuals complained that raiding was too hard for them.
    <<MAJOR SPOILER>>

    Raiding got never harder.
    Blizzard just gave us additional difficultys for the bored regular players.
    And now the catch, the new harder difficulty, that got even much harder since LEGION, takes more and more preparation, more and more practice and more and more additional help with addons (DBM > WA > WA+PLATER).

    You see, the base difficulty never changed that much. Todays LFR might be harder as MC/BWL thats for sure, but its still comerable. Everything else is added on top of that. Not casual got EASY difficultys, but regular players got HARDER modes into the game.
    -

  8. #68
    Fully agree with your point. It's a critical point.

    And ppl like Jester Joe, or in general the first comment on mmo-champ after OP are always ppl who have to argue, no matter how clear the problem is. Sorry dude, but how can you not see this problem is real.

  9. #69
    Blizzard is currently catering to people who like to play the game and get gear for it. They are currently not catering to people who only like to play a very specific part of the game and complain whenever Blizzard is catering to someone else then them. I wouldn't call that a corner.
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  10. #70
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Reading OP's post recalled some old discussions...

    - taken from M+/stats/x-forge discussion -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    --- Edited ---
    I can even fantasize over some stupid "addition" as a parameter (and design of this game was initially completely tied to control only through characteristics, but not the way they trying to push in last expansions). For example: raid gear will have separate additional line that will add a couple of percent of "benefits" in case when there are more than 5 people in the group (but only! raid gear) or something else trickier, but only! as characteristic. I hope you got the gist. Let's call it just for laughter "team spirit". This will some kind as resilience was for PvP, but for raid content. Here you go, now you have "your" content separate. If you do everything right, you don't even need higher ilvl (same for PvP) But what is now not making this part separate, only allowing "cheating with progress" and even worse - delivering huge demand for RNG to the market. Yes, I know that this role was performed by sets earlier, but since they conflicted with new designers' stormy "revolutionary" spirit to change everything, so now they don't work, and they're absent in new content.
    - taken from gear discussions -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Chosen characteristics are your role customisation mechanism and gear is its main keeper, so customisation = gear matters.
    No matter how many items of this level exist with different characteristics, the main thing is that you have a controlled choice. Therefore, the more items at your disposal, the more opportunities you have for customization, but since gear=customization, than it remains important.
    - He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your castimization):
    You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
    - Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    ----------------------------------------
    As for "this plan" with corrupted equipment, it, like all other attempts to create temporary solutions, is exactly what I called them - a temporary and often ineffective solution. We discussed this in topics with AA, in topics with x-forge equipment, since everything that they try to solve separately continues (no matter how much they would like to change it, but) to be interconnected. For example, you raised question of “who is worthy to get improved equipment”
    - - -
    honestly, this so called fact that "people, for current system, can choose content based on their preferences" is universal nonsense (OK, they can, but), current system has corrupted community so much that those majority, for which all this was sort of done, will choose not what they like to do, but what will be easier and faster = more efficient, and none of your arguments change this, just current system "taught" them to acting this way... so yes, but *shaking head negatively* NO - be careful with whom and how you try to help, because bad help is no help; just stick to base design rules, this is what was originally expected from you, these are your direct purpose and responsibility
    - - -
    but according to progress hierarchy, raids should be the most difficult PvE content (so endpoint of full accessible content/story and progress), both from mechanical and social point of view (your challenges with stupid systems with infinitely amount of complexities should never (not just appearing, but) ever even be considered within framework of this concept; you want challenge? - do it for fun/optional-cosmetics and don't ask to spoil working system for this) => changes in organization of progress and accessibility of content, in social regulation led to destabilization of entire system: growth rate of characteristics, prioritize in RPG-customization, and thus approach to creation talents, and thus damage class design ideology and as result - you get here *pointing at current game version* Therefore, no matter how much you say about fact that “people just leave the game from difficulties”, you aren't right simply because you proceed from its current design: from availability of universally fast and easily accessible equipment, from incredible growth of stats and characteristics within (now), not even expansions, but portions of content, from short, but with many difficulties dungeons and same stupid raids, from "depersonalizing/individualizing gameplay" social organization of servers, etc. In other words, when we argue, we not only look from different angles of view, but also at completely different "resulting" design systems... but it's if we assume that you're able to think more globally, and not only within "current private inconvenience".
    - - - snip - - -
    What do I think of characteristics such as hit, mastery, expertise, spirit, mp5, etc? - excellent characteristics, which not only help in organizing limits of power growth rate, catch-up mechanics, separation of interests in players’ participation (PvP vs PvE), sequence of progress, but also in separation of game roles and maintaining integrity of fantasy of particular game universe (immersion price).
    - taken from Cata discussion (classes in particular) -
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    1) Pruned talent trees, bias toward specs (rather then classes) began, also cutting of class mechanic + abilities + stats/characteristics. Before BfA advent, Cata was the worst of both systems options (bordering with Legion in case of Artifact weapon expulsion due to its “limited existence” and absence of at least any customization system - there was no choice, their fate was to be completely open) and survived only due to unfinished cutting of previous developments.
    - - - snip - - -
    Well, impressions are relative/individual, but from mechanics point of view - this was the worst option of "old system". For example, MoP was the best option of "new system" but! new one is worse than old in coherence with RPG component of this game. Ie, I can say that I liked MoP classes design, but I continue to argue that in general it's bad system for this particular game. Is that more clear? Mastery was crap in way they implemented it, but reforging was good. Glyphs was added during WotLK, in fact, they were additional "talent" options and could be easily realized inside talent trees, but they found a good place for a new profession, which isn't bad in itself.

    - I could like smoking, but this still doesn't mean that it's healthy for my organism.

    I may like system, but this doesn't mean that it's correct/better. Just as for current game design, todays class system design is appropriate (*shudders&frowns* it's disgusting to associate this filth with word "design" in general, but let's say this way), but here already conflict is much more global and flawed is entire game design, because it was created in attempt to divide indivisible (аnd the first steps were laid exactly by Cataclysm with its "separation into specs"/LFR/CRZ/phasing attempts). Most evident and obvious present ex.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The team wants to see more class representation in Mythic + and the MDI and will consider this when adding affixes in the future.
    - it was needless to take into consideration such shitty additions during class design in MoP (as well as in previous expansions), so... but exactly Cataclysm was transition from old global design to new one, and it fully concerns class design too - it wasn't old and it wasn't new, it was transitional hybrid that had no independent future, because it had disadvantages of both systems together.
    In order not to quote everything with regards to specifically discussed problem, I'll just leave links here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    5. About dungeons&requirements also M+/modes (+RNG+g.tokens+t/wf) +(+/+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+)
    ps. As you can see, it's not something new here
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-12-10 at 08:43 AM.
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  11. #71
    The solution is obvious. Put a weekly cap on how many items you can get; that way you can play M+ or raid and not feel compelled to do everything; all has the same loot and going beyond to no-life the game has no benefit because you reached your weekly item drop cap.

  12. #72
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    ...but raiding isn't an esport... Nor is mythic+. Sure, people make a sport out of it because they want to be the very best, but it ain't an esport like pvp or some moba.
    Maybe they aren't, but Blizzard surely treats them as such, with all the Arenas and MDI crap they try to shove down the players' throats.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    There needs not be class or spec parity in M+. It's the one area of the game where you'll see faster shifting meta
    Faster shifting meta? The meta for m+ has been the same since at least 8.1, with very small differences. Majority of push groups are rogue + dh + rdruid + prot warr (now also monks came up for top tank spot but warrior is still there) + 1 flex spot. The meta is stale as fuck and seasonal affixes change nothing, season 1 was rogue / dh / range, season 2 was triple melee but could work with 1 range as long as it had burst aoe, season 3 is again rogue / dh / range with some triple melee teams as well.

    The only difference is blood dk was king of legion and season 1 in bfa, then got completely dumpstered with nerfs, and since then it's warrior or warrior / monk reigning supreme. Monk healers had some small appearance in season 1 as well when blood dks covered battle rez, but since they got pushed out, it's resto druid no contest.

    Tbh the raid meta has been stale since BODA as well with the only difference of fire mages coming back to meta.

    This leaves a lot of specs without any niche in pve, can't speak about pvp, but atm in pve melees that aren't rogue / dh / warrior struggle to find a spot, dks did see some usage in "mass pull" m+ and do a bit better in EP than BODA but nothing hot. WW Monks could be used for the buff, but since brewmaster is so widespread in both raiding and m+ that makes WW obsolete.

    Same with tanks, monks everywhere with some warriors in m+ and some dks in raiding but the other 3 tank specs have no niche to excel in.

    At least with healers is a clear split, druids for m+, priest / paladin and some shaman for raiding, still that leaves monk completely out of meta in pve.

    Seasonal m+ affixes were meant to shake up the meta, yet only affected it by tiny amount.

  14. #74
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Most People that feel forced to do content in MMO's are idiots anyway. Either play the game for Fun or don't. If you feel like it's a chore perhaps stop playing.

    Content for everyone shouldn't be limited because some People have lack of self-control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    So why is it okay to pander to casuals but pandering to raiders is a sin?
    Because Casuals are the main audience of the game and pandering to manchildren pseudo-elitists is what removed a lot of good things from WoW

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Actually the most successful iterations of WoW (vanilla - early Cata) were world of raiding. Raiding was the only meaningful form of endgame progression. Everything was designed around raiding.
    Serious question: do you think that, if Blizzard released 'Wrath of the Lich King Classic' or some equivalent, that it would once again achieve 12 million subscribers?

    A little common sense will tell you that the industry has changed in the ten years since Wrath of the Lich King, so it's highly unlikely that WoW, or indeed any MMO, will be able to reach or hold 12 million subscribers. Pretending that the success of earlier expansions can be solely attributed not only to game design, but a very specific part of game design ('world of raiding') is nonsense.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except that still relies on luck, and circumstances.
    Except the bar is much lower for M+ and ability to repeat it without lockout makes it much easier.

    Which is something you just keep ignoring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It doesn't matter if you have a M+10 key and people can clearly see you're 390 ilvl after they join.
    If you have the key, that gives you the power, they can't do an +10 (of a specific dungeon) without someone having a key.
    Anybody can open a group for a raid because no key is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    but that Blizzard also designs the game so that people keep coming back week after week without getting burnt out on...gear they don't even need?
    If you don't get everything within a lockout, you come back next week.
    Do you have everything after a single lockout?
    Probably not, so there's a good chance you come back next week.

    Raiding, especially Mythic raiding, has worked for 15 years under this rather simple principle.
    M+ bypasses this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You realize you should take bloodmallet with a grain of salt, right?

    It sims based on predetermined builds, but that isn't always the case for every single class.
    They are using the best builds for Single target.
    Feel free to check Warcraftlogs, compare them to what Bloodmallet suggest, it lines up in a lot of cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    For your elemental shaman case, you can pick Primal Elementalist or Storm Elemental.
    Nobody in their right mind would pick SE because that build removes one of the core strengths of Ele, which is gaining single target dps out of multi dotting FS.
    If you go for SE, you basically play an entirely single target focused build that gets punished like hell by movement.
    And is even worse on ST than the regular MotE / Icefury build.

    Yeah, i simmed that one awhile ago.

    And if you check the actual numbers and not just look at the massive bar, you realize that those trinkets aren't even 2k dps apart from the best M+ trinkets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    There's a huge difference between sockets in rings and sockets in gloves.
    No, it's just relevant to the ring which you are going to use, but makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.
    A socket is just +50 secondary stat, that's all you get out of it, whether it's on your gloves is irrelevant, that's your total bonus.

    The socket only causes a massive swing within that respective slot, but that swing is an absolute number, which only has a greater impact on a slot that in itself is rather weak, but the absolute gain remains the same.

    You need to start looking at the greater picture, not just razor focus on a single slot.
    Rings are trash, a 445 ring gives you a total of 540 secondary stats, of course a proc that basically gives you 50 additional secondary stat has a huge swing in comparison to other rings, but that doesn't change the total value of gain those 50 secondary stats have on your dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Most People that feel forced to do content in MMO's are idiots anyway. Either play the game for Fun or don't. If you feel like it's a chore perhaps stop playing.
    I'm just going to take a random guess and say:
    Not everybody liked killing 10 Wolves / Boars / Bears / Zombies / whatever you had to kill during your first quest.
    Yet every WoW player still did that, did all of them enjoy killing those 10 npc's? Probably not, but they probably liked getting XP and the reward from the quest.

    Progression is a source of fun in games such as WoW, it's that simple, if the most efficient progression however comes from sources you don't enjoy, that's a problem.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-12-06 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by KYZ123 View Post
    Serious question: do you think that, if Blizzard released 'Wrath of the Lich King Classic' or some equivalent, that it would once again achieve 12 million subscribers?

    A little common sense will tell you that the industry has changed in the ten years since Wrath of the Lich King, so it's highly unlikely that WoW, or indeed any MMO, will be able to reach or hold 12 million subscribers. Pretending that the success of earlier expansions can be solely attributed not only to game design, but a very specific part of game design ('world of raiding') is nonsense.
    The industry hasn't changed on its own. BLIZZARD changed the industry since they completely dominate it. Previous iterations of the game achieved high subscription numbers because the game was set up in such a way as to foster long-term challenges and community-building. People had to commit months to progress from Karazhan to the Sunwell and they had to be a part of a guild to do that. Current game design fosters a "subscribe for the patch and then fuck off after a month" design. What's the point of striving to clear the most difficult content in the game (mythic raids) when you can get equivalent or better gear from other sources and see the content in LFR? It's pug, pug, pug life all the way. When you don't feel like a part of the community, you aren't invested.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Get some friends then...

    Pug life was always the same 15 years and counting, people looking for meta picks first when dealing with randoms is not some sort of M+ thing, it is simply a PuG thing for any activity in any period of time in WoW history.

    Not terribly sure why you want to pretend it's some sort of exclusive M+ thing.

    Other than that for something casual like weekly M+10 things are usually chill anyway, I'm a lock and it's definitely not M+ meta and I can still land into any M+ PuG for weekly no problem, when I even do this outside of guild.
    a lot of problems people have with the game would be fixed by having friends. but if people are as shitty in game as they are on the forums, i can understand why that would be a problem.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Maybe they aren't, but Blizzard surely treats them as such, with all the Arenas and MDI crap they try to shove down the players' throats.
    'Cus they have the shareholders so far up the rear they can taste it.

  20. #80
    you can have balance in all facets of the game(or relative balance), but blizzard suck at balancing.. they're bad at realizing what's op and why it is op, they're slow as fuck at fixing stuff, they usually change numbers too much... or they don't change broken stuff at all despite a lot of feedback(remember warrior taste for blood stacks or hunter stampede in mop? or 8 second kidney in wod?)

    oh and also i think balance is overrated and people stopped playing pvp not only because of balance, but mostly because of overall changes to gameplay that made pvp worse.. class design is way more important to pvp in wow than balance, way more..

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