Police chases and bystanders

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The police put way more people at risk, a whole crowd and they killed 2 people, probably more than those robbers would have.
And you think the van has unlimited fuel? The police does not have multiple helis for cases like this?



This is even far from the first time innocent bystanders get killed by the police, you got far worse cases. yet.. somehow, this sort of stuff never happens in a lot of european countries, although they are very far from perfect.

I’ve already said the police did poorly in this case with the shoot out, that how ever doesn’t mean just leaving them at large or waiting for some magical window where no one is at risk is the good idea.

The van also doesn’t need unlimited fuel when they have already shown they are capable and willing of car jacking people and keeping them hostage.

As far as multiple copters go I don’t know they aren’t mentioned in the story.

[Themius]

Yes and I've said thing could have ended up different but it's kind of like a heat in the moment kind of deal the idiots open fire and everyone else opens fire I'm sure luck is involved to and with abit of luck thing could have ended up different but it didn't. It is what it is.

Im sure if they had enough time and swat team would have been there things would have been better but it went down pretty fast when they opened fire.

You can't just let criminals open fire with alot of bystanders there either.

So what I am hearing is that the officers were too rash and should have tracked them with gps and helicopter until more equip backup came.

[Dextroden]

what are you confused about exactly?

What is the protocol for being mugged, what typically is taught? To hand over everything and comply. Why? Because generally they're not going to kill you, but they will threaten and rob you, and if you fight the likelihood of you being killed is higher.

Or you do you disagree with this known convention?

So, why didn't they run off since all they wanted was money and not lives?

[Themius]

I’ve already said the police did poorly in this case with the shoot out, that how ever doesn’t mean just leaving them at large or waiting for some magical window where no one is at risk is the good idea.

The van also doesn’t need unlimited fuel when they have already shown they are capable and willing of car jacking people and keeping them hostage.

As far as multiple copters go I don’t know they aren’t mentioned in the story.

What the fuck are you talking about? That is exactly what they're trained to do that is exactly what they're supposed to do.

[Themius]

So, why didn't they run off since all they wanted was money and not lives?

So now you're shifting goal post.

First you say I say "fuck the store owner" for simply pointing out the above convention, that when you're being robbed you're generally taught to not fight over it, because the likelihood of you ending up dead's much higher.

Then when I point out the convention, now you move on to something else without address your bullshit comment from before.

[Dextroden]

So now you're shifting goal post.

First you say I say "fuck the store owner" for simply pointing out the above convention, that when you're being robbed you're generally taught to not fight over it, because the likelihood of you ending up dead's much higher.

Then when I point out the convention, now you move on to something else without address your bullshit comment from before.

You said they shot him because he had a gun. So, again, it's his fault for defending himself in your world.

Themius. Lay down for armed robbers but be standoffish to cops.

[Krastyn]

When they got out would have been a good opportunity. They likely wouldn't take the hostage with them at that point as that would slow them down if they're about to try to take another car.

The whole point is to follow the truck, but on other roads, and close in when the opportunity is best.

You're assuming that they're getting out and fleeing on foot. Your position is that they should have kept a fair distance, which means it would be impossible for them to react quickly to a change in the situation.

What if they decided when traffic stopped to drag the UPS guy and carjack the car next to them, gaining additional hostages? What if it was a school bus? What if they split into two different vehicles?

What isn't entirely clear from what I can tell, is who started firing first. If the robbers started firing first, it is highly unlikely they were going to be "negotiated" with at any point.

[Dextroden]

No, he's saying that they weren't just shooting for the fun of it. That means you cant act like they're mass shooters that will just start doing drivebys for the hell of it. So the arguments that they would just start shooting random people for no reason and needed to be stopped asap doesn't hold water.

Nah. They just shot up a jewlery store. And kidnapped someone. And tried to kill more to escape.

[ParanoiD84]

So what I am hearing is that the officers were too rash and should have tracked them with gps and helicopter until more equip backup came.

Best thing would have been if the two criminals shot themselves in the head saving everyone else the trouble but sadly they didnt.

Cops are also not trained with hostage situations to my knowledge it's for the swat teams and im sure they would have done a better job but when criminals starts to open fire around alot of people the cops will of course try to take them out.

[Themius]

You're assuming that they're getting out and fleeing on foot. Your position is that they should have kept a fair distance, which means it would be impossible for them to react quickly to a change in the situation.

What if they decided when traffic stopped to drag the UPS guy and carjack the car next to them, gaining additional hostages? What if it was a school bus? What if they split into two different vehicles?

What isn't entirely clear from what I can tell, is who started firing first. If the robbers started firing first, it is highly unlikely they were going to be "negotiated" with at any point.

Okay so they're going to... switch cars by teleporting?

[ParanoiD84]

Police are supposed to be capable of making intelligent choices that mitigate risks. Not do something insanely risky that has no upside to it.

True but things happen pretty fast in these situations and when criminals starts to open fire around alot of people they need to act fast, I'm sure they also think today that they could have handled things different and perhaps they try something else next time.

[Themius]

Best thing would have been if the two criminals shot themselves in the head saving everyone else the trouble but sadly they didnt.

Cops are also not trained with hostage situations to my knowledge it's for the swat teams and im sure they would have done a better job but when criminals starts to open fire around alot of people the cops will of course try to take them out.

Our cops are trained about a few months, with the majority of departments not requiring any higher level education.

[Themius]

True but things happen pretty fast in these situations and when criminals starts to open fire around alot of people they need to act fast, I'm sure they also think today that they could have handled things different and perhaps they try something else next time.

Too late for next time, they killed to people.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When they got out would have been a good opportunity. They likely wouldn't take the hostage with them at that point as that would slow them down if they're about to try to take another car.

The whole point is to follow the truck, but on other roads, and close in when the opportunity is best.

That’s what happened. They got stuck and traffic and the police approached which then let to them shooting at the police. Unless you the police were suppose to clear the traffic and let them keep going or something.

[Orange Joe]

I'll take my infraction for this. but imo anyone who says that collateral damage is ok, will hopefully become collateral damage themselves one day.

[Dextroden]

Okay so they're going to... switch cars by teleporting?

By carjacking. And it'll work because they either get the car from someone because they don't want to be shot. Or you'll get mad at the carjacking victim for not surrendering to them.

[Themius]

That’s what happened. They got stuck and traffic and the police approached which then let to them shooting at the police. Unless you the police were suppose to clear the traffic and let them keep going or something.

Note I said when they had a good opportunity. Being stuck in traffic because... it is a busy area is not a good opportunity.

[Dextroden]

None of that makes the leap to them suddenly deciding they want to become mass shooters. They steal because they want money. The shoot because the guy had a gun. They kidnap for insurance. They shoot at group of people with guns.

None of that comes close to doing random drivebys for the hell of it. There's a large distinction between mass shooters and criminals that are willing to kill to get their way. A mass shooter just wants a high death toll while the criminals kill because it gives them an advantage.

Remember folks. No one is defending them or their actions.

[Themius]

By carjacking. And it'll work because they either get the car from someone because they don't want to be shot. Or you'll get mad at the carjacking victim for not surrendering to them.

That would require them to get out of the car, which would mean they're on foot at some point. Do you even know what the poster I'm quoting said? No one was mad at the shop owner? Why are you assuming this suddenly? Is it hard for you to make any argument without trying to attache some emotion to the other person's argument that you pull out of your ass? Hallmark of a pathetic argument.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What the fuck are you talking about? That is exactly what they're trained to do that is exactly what they're supposed to do.

So they are trained to let them go indefinitely then? Because as long as they are armed willing to kidnap/shoot people and have a hostage there is no point where no one is at risk.