PVP ruined PVE

[Niroshi]

Elitists ruined the game, top elitist now game-director. 1+1=2

/thread

The game is designed almost entirely around casual players though.

Also PvP hasn't "ruined" PvE, they've got virtually nothing to do with each other these days. We hardly even see class balance and they balance the two separately now unlike in the past. The GCD change wasn't made strictly for PvP it was also made for PvE, probably the MDI specifically since that has been their big push.

The reason PvE is shit is because gearing is completely out of whack due to Mythic+, and outside of Mythic raiding and very high M+ keys there is no challenge left in anything because Blizzard is terrified of somebody not seeing something.

[Zarvel]

The game is designed almost entirely around casual players though.

Also PvP hasn't "ruined" PvE, they've got virtually nothing to do with each other these days. We hardly even see class balance and they balance the two separately now unlike in the past. The GCD change wasn't made strictly for PvP it was also made for PvE, probably the MDI specifically since that has been their big push.

The reason PvE is shit is because gearing is completely out of whack due to Mythic+, and outside of Mythic raiding and very high M+ keys there is no challenge left in anything because Blizzard is terrified of somebody not seeing something.

Do you even read back whatever you type mate?

PvP and PvE are linked once again ever since templates were removed. If you think otherwise, you don't have a grasp of the concepts and how they rely on each other. Class balance still takes into account both PvE and PvP. The only thing they do separately balance wise in PvP is the tuning, the classes still play the same baseline in all modes.

The GCD change was not for MDI. Ion literally said in one of his dev QnAs that it was to remove the impact of silly macros that players were creating to blow cds in different combinations that was taking away from real decision making. Unfortunately, it backfired because slowing GCD's down was never the right solution given how many "setup" type classes/specs there are in the game. Their approach should've been different to tackle the problem as they claimed it to be.

Gearing is not completely "out of whack" as you put it. The whole "i'm forced to do M+ if i raid or vice versa" situation only applies to the top 1-2% of the wow population at end-game. At that point it's a matter of perspective, compulsion and self-control rather than "the game is broken". It is ENTIRELY possible to raid without setting foot into M+, it is ENTIRELY possible to do M+ without setting foot into raids. It is also ENTIRELY possible to do high m+ or mythic raiding without touching the other piece of content, but you'll reach those high levels slightly slower, is all. It is ENTIRELY your prerogative to play other forms of PvE content in the game or sometimes even PvP to earn those Elite pieces early in a patch because you want to speed up your own timeline in comparison to others. You're the ones driving each other to do the stuff you don't need to do. It's kind of ironic how most 'hardcore' players who visit forums such as this miss such basic points or just choose to willfully ignore them when making their arguments.

I play on 6 characters, all ilv 440-ish and 1.1k-1.2kish rio scores. I don't enter raids on all except one of those characters, and even that just to get curve. I do ALL my gearing in M+. I never feel like i'm missing out on anything because I'm not raiding. Stuff like coral and inkpod trinkets are nice-to-haves, sure, but must-haves? Nope, not for me. And guess what, 98% of the game's population sees it that way too. I still enjoy the game, getting a different perspective of M+ affixes every week on multiple classes/specs/roles. But apparently, according to hardcore players i'm not supposed to be enjoying my time doing so? Yeah, sure.

Also, "No challenge left in anything" ? Really? If i was to go through your armory and Rio, would I see 20+ keystone levels + CE + 2.3k+ CR on your characters?
What other challenge do you want outside of ALL the end-game content? First complete what's in front of you and then talk about other challenges. If anything, WoW players are spoiled for choice. It's OK not to have content in the game that would keep you hooked for more than 5-6 hours at a stretch. If you want more challenge outside those hours, create your own. Game Designers these days are not paid to design mechanics and gameplay to hook players for Hours on end. They're paid to hook players in for a reasonable amount of time and still drag the cash out of you. That's just the reality of the industry as a whole. Best come to terms with it real quick.

It's people like you who are also already trashing the Tower of The Damned from shadowlands before the shit is even out for alpha testing......

[Craaazyyy]

We have said this since vanilla. PvP has always been messing up PvE. If anything it got better in Legion when they decided to actually try to differentiate how powerful your abilities are between PvE and PvP. Still messing it up though.

it was the other way around 99% of the time

[Pandragon]

It has been like that since Cata, you know. Because stronger classes = no problem in PVE, cuz Blizzard could simply increase boss HP/dmg, but one-shots in PVP. Stronger healers? No problems in PVE, cuz Blizzard could simply increase incoming dmg, but immortal healers in PVP. Same for tanks. Etc. PVE - no matter, how many buttons you have, cuz PVE is about pressing them at right moment or in right order. PVP - more simple class mechanics = win. That's why 3-button style specs were so popular back in that time, when not all classes were 3-button style. So Blizzard simply decided to turn all specs into 3-button style ones in order to make them equally popular.

Yeah but, we still have all this in pvp. I did one bg where it took 5 people 2 minutes to kill a disc priest I think it was.

[Mermeoth]

I thought they added GCD to force you make desicions instead of pushing one macro on demand.

[Dorthonion1]

PvP is literally dead because they decide to focus on PvE because it makes more money, they make only changes in PvE and don't care how it affects PvP balance.

[owbu]

Slowing down the game is the worst possible decision. Nobody has fun pressing a cooldown, or even multiple cooldowns in a row while waiting for GCD's with nothing happening. The best joke is having cooldowns with an 8 second duration being subject to a 1.5s GCD. I mean what even in the fuck were they thinking, almost as hilarious as having split second tank reaction abilities on the GCD.

Fast satisfying gameplay > Slow deliberate gameplay any day of the week. This is a real time combat based MMORPG, not online chess.

I enjoy it. So do other people. People like different things.

[MoanaLisa]

GCD change was to slow the game down a bit and stop people from relentlessly stabbing at keys. I don't know how much it affected the latter but the change itself didn't have anything to do specifically with PVP.

The fact is that most of the player population for WoW isn't interested in doing mythic raiding or high-level mythic+ where a quicker GCD matters a lot more.

There's a lot of ways that adjusting abilities for PVP has impacted PVE abilities badly but this isn't one of them.

[toffmcsoft]

Pvp is a cancer for the game since they gived free epics with same power level than raid for doing 10 arenas in tbc, rank13 and 14 epics used to be naxxramas power for some classes(nearly worthless or bwl for others) but it requires months and months of no life pvp. Gladiator gear in tbc? Literally invented the free epics

Sorry but PVP is the reason why the game is fun for many people. It's not cancer.
What's cancer is blizzard trying to balance the 2.

[Dch48]

More specifically, Arenas ruined PvE. PvE balance at least. The single worst addition to the game IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -

By this point, everything has ruined everything.

I haven't really noticed it, but people keep telling me.

Best answer yet. I love it.

[Viikkis]

PvP has always been second to PvE. No way Blizz makes something for PvP that affects PvE gameplay.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Poking around in Classic I honestly don't think it's PvP in general that ruined PvE.

Honestly I think it was Blizzard's esports mentality circa 2012-2014 that ruined PvE and PvP. They wanted to turn Arenas into an esport and to do that they started stripping WoW down to the studs to rebuild it as an easy to balance, 4 button rotation, MOBA.

[Frosteye]

Pretty sure I can speak for most PVPers when I say that we didn't ask for the GCD change either

aka everyone hates it except the backpeddling clickers who were already slow

[AeneasBK]

The pvp ranks you describe always belonged to players who never interacted with pve so your argument is completely redundant. No "free epics" were ever given its a known fact that pve gear was always better for both scenarios and was only surpassed in pvp by items with resilience which was useless for pve.

Depending on your spec, some of your pre-raid BiS items for PvE was Arena gear. Particularly those expacs/patches when resilience had no stat cost (TBC, and it was either Cata or MoP I can't remember).

[nexellent]

The only affect pvp has ever had on pve was making gearing slightly easier at different points in time, while pve ruined a ton of seasons of pvp with absurd trinkets/weapons or even now with traits. Get your head out of your ass carebear

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Depending on your spec, some of your pre-raid BiS items for PvE was Arena gear. Particularly those expacs/patches when resilience had no stat cost (TBC, and it was either Cata or MoP I can't remember).

Weird take but I kinda miss the days when PvP gear was useful in PvE. BiS it should not be but it gave more options for farming gear.

[AeneasBK]

If you have played then you surely remember that the first 2 seasons were SHIT GEAR that couldnt even get you invited in an HC dungeon.

Again, spec reliant, but this is false.

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Weird take but I kinda miss the days when PvP gear was useful in PvE. BiS it should not be but it gave more options for farming gear.

Sure, multiple gearing routes is always good if it's balanced moderately well - it was my counter argument to whiney guildies at the start of MoP complaining that they *had* to do dailies *every day* or they were failing to play WoW properly; I'd just point out that some of my BiS items were gated behind weeks of Arena so they could shut the fuck up and not do the dailies if it was just too stressful, the raid loot which was better would drop within a few weeks anyway :P

[Unholyground]

It is an empirical fact that it ruined PvE in a lot of ways, this is why they should have separated the two game modes expansions ago creating unique versions of each class for PvE and PvP respectively.

[Trend]

It is an empirical fact that it ruined PvE in a lot of ways, this is why they should have separated the two game modes expansions ago creating unique versions of each class for PvE and PvP respectively.

LMAO, I love forums. "It is an empirical fact" = "This is totally just my opinion but it's really really important that you agree with me".

My "empirical fact" is that the game is better when you have to make choices involving tradeoffs and you can't be optimized for every single kind of content you want to do.

[Dhrizzle]

Elitists ruined the game, top elitist now game-director. 1+1=2

/thread

Yeah but Ion was an elitist raider, shouldn't he have been pushing fornPvE changes that ruin PvP?

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The pvp ranks you describe always belonged to players who never interacted with pve so your argument is completely redundant. No "free epics" were ever given its a known fact that pve gear was always better for both scenarios and was only surpassed in pvp by items with resilience which was useless for pve.

The only thing one can "accuse" pvp of is the changes in skills to prevent one shots but even that was never an issue for pve players.

Arena epics won out because they were so easy to get with no RNG issue, especially for more casual guilds who could get S2/3 gear while they were still in T4/5 content. The season 2 staff with all its crit and hit was an awesome item for destroyed 'locks.