Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Ragedaug]

Canon as a term is utterly useless as it is. I don't care what someone or something tries to dictate to me as "this is the REAL truth of a thing you like!" Nah. I'll do what I do with religion and cherry pick my favorite parts while ignoring the other parts. I don't particularly care about canon at all. Only thing I do care about is if I like it.

In regards to the movie itself, since my head-canon starwars universe is still my favorite fantasy universe, I'll still go see it, but I couldn't be any less hyped. I assume it's going to suck, if for no other reason than the last jedi being the worst starwars thing to happen in recent history (rogue one > all, solo was mediocre, the force awakens was fine). The flip flopping between all the setup force awakens did and then the last jedi... and now probably attempting to salvage and return to whatever the force awakens was setting up again (thanks for changing creative visions 3 times in 3 movies disney) has just left me totally uncaring about what happens. While I may love the universe of star wars, I just don't give a shit about this particular little story they're telling any more.

I fell very much the same. I'm trying not to go in assuming Ep 9 will suck, 'cause I think sometimes you can decide to dislike something before you try it, whereas you might have enjoyed it approaching it with an open mind. That said, I'm going in with little to no expectations and just hoping it's somewhat enjoyable. After Ep 8 I don't think there's anything they could do to further disappoint me, so Ep 9 has that going for it.

[Frontenac]

This is what I don't get. If you like it and didn't feel defensive about it, why do you have to pretend things that happened didn't happen. Why, if you like it, can't you just say, "yeah, I don't understand why Mark Hamill didn't like it. It's clear he didn't and I'm just not sure why". Instead of fooling yourself to pretend he did. That's what makes me think you are feeling insecure about liking it, or having to convince yourself that you like it when deep down you have doubts.

I dunno. Just saying, it doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you that people can change their own opinion? That explains a lot...

Also to note, you are comparing Mark Hamill's understanding of Luke, a guy who played Luke under the creator's direction and supervision, who explained to Mark exactly who Luke is, to Rian Johnson, a guy who got his understanding of who Luke is by watching Mark Hamill play him. For the record, other than Lucas, every one of us got our understanding of who Luke is by watching Mark Hamill. So I'm not sure how you dismiss Mark saying he doesn't know, but someone we know better than Mark does based on us watching Mark play him. You got me on that on.

Again: people change with time, depending on what they lived, who they met, what they read, etc. Hamill knew who Luke was in the OT, but knew nothing of what Luke lived afterwards and how these events changed him. He knew Luke in his 20s, not Luke in his 50s. That's the writers to decide that and in that case, it was Rian Johnson and J.J. Abrams.

Canon is a generic term that just means "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works". So anyone can say anything is canon as it applies to themselves. You don't get to decide what I accept as genuine. Sure, the official SW canon is determined by the owner of the IP. But the canon the person you are trying to nitpick is not the official canon. It's his personal Star Wars canon.

No, not everybody gets to say what is canon or not, that goes against the very definition of what a canon is. You say that a canon is: "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works." You omit to say one thing: by whom. The term "canon" implies an authority that sets the canon. So you can hate and pretend that TLJ is not canon all you like (if it can help you sleep at night), the reality is that TLJ exists, that it has been made by the owners of Star Wars and therefore it is considered as part of the official storyline and will be referenced to in all SW story that happens after it.

[Ragedaug]

That is my opinion of the film as well. There's good ideas there, they just aren't well executed at all.

Rian Johnson's a good director. I really enjoyed Knives Out. But The Last Jedi was not a good movie. I don't think it is the apocalyptic disaster that people on forums or reddit claim it is, and I certainly don't think it is any sillier or has significantly worse story/dialog than any other Star Wars movie, but it just fails to offer a cohesive package or (most crucially for such a movie) likeable characters.

I like the idea of subverting/deconstructing Star Wars as much as anyone, but you should do that in spin-offs or games, like Rogue One or KOTOR 2. Trying for something completely different in the middle of a trilogy is a risky move at the best of times.

I can get on board with that. I think Rian's made some good movies as well. This one just felt like he had his own story he was trying to tell, but with the restrictions of using preformed characters and preset plot devices (like the force), so the blending of two (his story & existing SW lore) just ended up not working well.

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No, not everybody gets to say what is canon or not, <yes they do> that goes against the very definition of what a canon is <nope it doesn't>. You say that a canon is: "a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works." You omit to say one thing: by whom. The term "canon" implies an authority that sets the canon. So you can hate and pretend that TLJ is not canon all you like (if it can help you sleep at night), the reality is that TLJ exists, that it has been made by the owners of Star Wars and therefore it is considered as part of the official storyline and will be referenced to in all SW story that happens after it.

I didn't omit the by whom. I clearly said that's the most critical part, and is the very thing that gives 'canon' any meaning. If he said, "EP 8 is not part of the offical canon" he would be wrong. the "by whom" is the IP owner, and they've stated EP 8 is part of their official canon. That doesn't mean it has to be part of his personal canon, which is what he was referring to.

[BeepBoo]

They really should have had a story already written and fleshed out before even considering making the movies, and they absolutely should not have had the directors writing their own movie's stories. Ideally, they wouldn't have even changed directors.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Rey isn't overpowered"

(Is equal to Kylo who killed Snoke, all while not having actual training)

Sure.

[tromage2]

You don't get to have an opinion regarding that. This just means you're willfully wrong.

What is "canon" to a particular IP is determined by the owner of the IP. Not the fans. The fans don't get any say at all in what is or is not canon.

Since the IP is not made anymore by the creator you can ignore all of Disney Star Wars. And to ignore these movies is 100% up to the fans.

The books, videogames and comics (pre Disney) are approved by George Lucas so those are more canon then any Disney movie.

[Frontenac]

I can get on board with that. I think Rian's made some good movies as well. This one just felt like he had his own story he was trying to tell, but with the restrictions of using preformed characters and preset plot devices (like the force), so the blending of two (his story & existing SW lore) just ended up not working well.

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I didn't omit the by whom. I clearly said that's the most critical part, and is the very thing that gives 'canon' any meaning. If he said, "EP 8 is not part of the offical canon" he would be wrong. the "by whom" is the IP owner, and they've stated EP 8 is part of their official canon. That doesn't mean it has to be part of his personal canon, which is what he was referring to.

"Official canon" is a pleonasm. Of course a canon is "official!" That's part of the very definition of what a canon is! Personal canon does not exist. Everytime he will watch a movie or read a novel that refers to a character or an event in Ep. 8, his "personal canon" will be challenged. That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

As Endus said, he may hate it, but cannot say that it did not happen in the storyline.

[Beefhammer]

Remember guys: having to suspend your disbelief to some degree means you can have no internally consistent logic whatsoever.

It was all about selling cool looking toys. Consistent logic was never part of the equation.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

- "gets the Falcon from her junk planet"..you mean when she stole it. (Rey, ..and Finn, stole it)
- Obiwan stole it (Luke didn't steal it)
- Jawas stole it (Luke didn't steal it)
- Luke wasn't AWOL, he announced where he was going to one of the leaders of the Alliance. She did not say no, meaning he had her leave.

You tried to defeat hyperbole with even greater hyperbole. Would have been better to just explain the Rey stuff.

Unless the junk planet is named Han she didn’t take it from Han.

Just gonna copy what I said in my last post as you apparently didn’t Read it and are just repeating what I already said.

Luke on the other hand got Vader’s saber from obiwan who stole it.

He then buys a stolen r2 from some jawa’s which actually belonged to leia.

As for him going AWOL I don’t care to dig though the comics at the moment so sure let’s say he didn’t.

[Ragedaug]

"Official canon" is a pleonasm. Of course a canon is "official!" That's part of the very definition of what a canon is! Personal canon does not exist. Everytime he will watch a movie or read a novel that refers to a character or an event in Ep. 8, his "personal canon" will be challenged. That. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

As Endus said, he may hate it, but cannot say that it did not happen in the storyline.

My personal canon is not official. That's nonsense that you would think it is.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"Rey isn't overpowered"

(Is equal to Kylo who killed Snoke, all while not having actual training)

Sure.

Force power levels have nothing to do with training Rey can have the same raw strength as kylo but not the mastery of it.

[Frontenac]

Since the IP is not made anymore by the creator you can ignore all of Disney Star Wars. And to ignore these movies is 100% up to the fans.

The books, videogames and comics (pre Disney) are approved by George Lucas so those are more canon then any Disney movie.

George Lucas wiped his ass with every videogames, comics and books he "approved" when he made the Prequel Trilogy. Don't make me laugh.

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My personal canon is not official. That's nonsense that you would think it is.

What is nonsensical is the way you cope with reality. If I were to think the way you do, then for me, cats are really called dogs.

[Ragedaug]

Unless the junk planet is named Han she didn’t take it from Han.

Just gonna copy what I said in my last post as you apparently didn’t Read it and are just repeating what I already said.

If he said she stole it from Han, then yeah, that's would be a stretch. She did steal it though.

As for him going AWOL I don’t care to dig though the comics at the moment so sure let’s say he didn’t.

You are right on this one. As far as we know he was AWOL. I was thinking he talked to Leah, but I was thinking of the scene from RotJ when they were leaving Jabba's palace and he told them he would meet them back at the fleet and Leah told him to hurry. In ESB, he was told to meet at the rendezvous point, but we were never shown that he told anyone but R2 that he was going to make a side trip.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Since the IP is not made anymore by the creator you can ignore all of Disney Star Wars. And to ignore these movies is 100% up to the fans.

The books, videogames and comics (pre Disney) are approved by George Lucas so those are more canon then any Disney movie.

Lucus didn’t ever approve the EU he said it he thought of it as a different universe the the one he made.

I don’t read that stuff. I haven’t read any of the novels. I don’t know anything about that world. That’s a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.” – George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337

[exochaft]

If you really think this then you just weren't paying attention to return. Luke post training still struggles with the dark side this is shown multiple times in return and twice in just the fight with Vader/confronting the emperor. There was no regression to pre return Luke as your idea of post empire Luke has never existed.

I think you really weren't paying attention to what I wrote, as I described that the culmination of that event symbolizes that Luke finally overcomes that hurdle at the very end. He's constantly tempted at the end of RotJ, but the entire point of him confronting his father while affirming he'd never turn to the Dark Side to the Emperor's face is all to say that he's finally overcome his doubts/anger/fear and become a Jedi. It's heavily implied at Yoda's death scene (heck, it's rather on the nose about it) that Luke has all the skills to be a Jedi, but until he overcomes his doubts/anger/fear he's still not a Jedi. Now, this doesn't say he couldn't fall from grace later, but all the setup in RotJ implies that he's conquered his doubts/anger/fear at the very end and won't be tempted (hence Luke proclaiming he's a Jedi after throwing down his lightsaber and the Emperor's tonal shift and attempts to kill him versus turning him). This is why I say the narrative in TLJ is a completely regression of what happened in RotJ, hence why said narrative was so jarring. I'm not saying Luke can't fall from grace, but the reasons given and execution of the scenes in TLJ trying to convey this were very poor.

Using another movie reference as it relates to things religion and this conversation, it's the difference between knowing the path and walking the path. In TESB, Luke knows the path but he doesn't really walk it and even ends up paying for his hubris by losing his hand. In RotJ, he tries to walk the path yet stumbles several times off the path, but ultimately walks the path at the very end of the film after confronting his father and completely rejecting the Dark Side. Following the same theme, Luke in TLJ just plain rejects the path entirely. Again, it's ppossible for what results in TLJ to happen to Luke, but the way it was set up was so counter to what was established in the original trilogy for Luke. In order for the flashbacks to make sense for Luke, they needed to establish at least something credible in TFA/TLJ about what happened to Luke in the past couple decades that leads up to his drastic change in character that leads him to even think about killing Kylo during training. They could've even done something as cheesy as a montage showing Luke descending into Dark Side mannerism and struggling against such temptations as he got older, maybe disenfranchised by seeing how people treated each other after the war, watch him actually struggle with teaching other students and getting frustrated, etc.

I can't stress this enough: I'm not contesting that the Luke portrayed in TLJ couldn't exist given the previous movies portrayal, but the execution of the narrative in TLJ just doesn't sell me on the idea and feels half-baked at best. I still think it was likely a divergence from JJ's original idea and likely a "Hey, what would really subvert expectations is to..." decision, none of which is bad on it's own, but it feels like the narrative setup to explain this subversion of expectations was an afterthought.

[Ragedaug]

What is nonsensical is the way you cope with reality. If I were to think the way you do, then for me, cats are really called dogs.

To some people cats are called gata/gato. To other people they are called macka or pisica. So if you say, "what is that animal called", it depends on who you ask. Just like personal canon. What I accept for canon, whether it be religious, or otherwise, may not be what you consider canon, and is likely not what any agreed authority considers canon. I still recognize there is an official canon, so I stay in the bounds of that when discussing matters, but it doesn't mean I don't have my own personal canon that may differ.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

lots o words.

That’s a lot of nice speculation and all but we already know from yoda that it doesn’t work that way you don’t just turn off the dark side like a switch. Luke pulls back from the dark side every time but can never be free of it.

[Ragedaug]

I can't stress this enough: I'm not contesting that the Luke portrayed in TLJ couldn't exist given the previous movies portrayal, but the execution of the narrative in TLJ just doesn't sell me on the idea and feels half-baked at best. I still think it was likely a divergence from JJ's original idea and likely a "Hey, what would really subvert expectations is to..." decision, none of which is bad on it's own, but it feels like the narrative setup to explain this subversion of expectations was an afterthought.

I couldn't agree more with this paragraph. That's my main take away for what I disagree with on Luke's portrayal in TLJ. The change to his character wasn't earned.

[Puupi]

That’s a lot of nice speculation and all but we already know from yoda that it doesn’t work that way you don’t just turn off the dark side like a switch. Luke pulls back from the dark side every time but can never be free of it.

Silvio explains it better!

[Jastall]

I can get on board with that. I think Rian's made some good movies as well. This one just felt like he had his own story he was trying to tell, but with the restrictions of using preformed characters and preset plot devices (like the force), so the blending of two (his story & existing SW lore) just ended up not working well.

There's no denying that his particular style was really unsuited to Star Wars in the end. That said, sometimes directors who have little prior experience in a genre can create a pleasant surprise; most recently, Todd Philips managed to make a great, dark Joker movie despite having a background in comedies. I can understand wanting to take a gamble sometimes, but Star Wars is not the franchise to do so. It's as formulaic as entertainment gets, the main movies at least, and engaging in a deconstruction of the setting should be left to its own standalone flick, not smack dab in the middle of a trilogy, and not after a movie that tried its damnest to be a shot-for-shot replica of ANH to boot.

The MCU could get away with it a bit more since, while the various films exist in the same canon, they are more loosely affiliated. That's how you can have modern spy thrillers, movies about reality-bending wizards, silly planet-hopping adventures and desperate endtimes scenarios involving omnicidal tyrants in the same universe and it works well. Star Wars movies directly follow one another but somehow feel like they have a less harmonious continuity in-between them than the 20+ Marvel movies (by the by, this is also a criticism I could very easily levy at the OT and the prequels). It's clear that the new series needed a strong hand at the helm to enforce its themes, tone and general direction, and that is not what happened.

I still think a lot of the shit flung at the new series is ridiculous, however. The main character being too competent is classic Star Wars-ism. The science making no sense whatsoever is par for the course. The dialog being mediocre at best is in direct continuation with what Lucas wrote (and at least it's not episodes 1 and 2). The silly nonsense aimed at kids has been there since day 1. The technology being stupidly impractical was a given the moment we had dogfights and explosions in space around a moon-sized station that can obliterate planets. There's more than enough to criticize here without pretending that Star Wars was far more high-brow entertainment that it actually was.