Ion Hazzikostas to German Magazine: Sub Rogue Redesign!?

[Kithelle]

Let’s wait and see. The majority of the players in WoW focus on PvE content so everything will always be designed to mainly cater to raids and dungeons. I think you’ll might be disappointed

Remember...they're taking a lot from classic...which had plenty of specs which were only good for PvE or PvP...if that happened again it wouldn't surprise me at all with how lazy class design has been for a while. Just copy and paste and they think everything is good...

[Boricha]

I'd be very happy with Cata or WoD sub. The only thing I didn't like about Cata was getting energy from recup, I wished it had been tied to SnD. I'd take back any pre-Legion version of sub though tbh, I just want to get rid of this shadow warrior thing we have right now.

[shoegazing]

I mean to be fair, my first character in Vanilla was a Rogue and I was only a "Rogue Main" for BoD and EP.

As someone who has only mained this class since 2005, I can't fathom why you even feel the need to open your mouth in this thread. You know absolutely nothing.

Infracted.

[Kaver]

As someone who has only mained this class since 2005, I can't fathom why you even feel the need to open your mouth in this thread. You know absolutely nothing.

Well you clearly have no problem with opening your mouth in PvE oriented threads even though you clearly hate and don’t do PvE content. So I guess you shouldn’t be so judgemental of what other people say you big hypocrite.

Are you also teaching your students to keep their mouths shut unless they are experts on the field? If so, that would be extremely bad and sensoring mentorship. Well, I hope it’s not the case and that you’re just another internet warrior

Infracted.

[KyleEverett]

I like the shadowblade style of Sub currently. It's unique. Is there things they can do to help it, absolutely, but making it a weaker version of Assassination is boring.

[Tyrannica]

I like the shadowblade style of Sub currently. It's unique. Is there things they can do to help it, absolutely, but making it a weaker version of Assassination is boring.

i am all for more teleport and mobility options.... and some evasion like stuff and be fine with it. I think whats missing is the toolkit of rogues(all 3 specs). it got removed in legion, first shadow rogue design in legion(the first month after release) was stupid fun. Stupid because of the constant teleports with your main attack and fun, cause of overscaled numbers. Not too many complained, because of dumbed down rogue design, complains started to come in after huge damage nerfs.

So yeah, wod is certainly the most friendly rogue expansion by design i would say.(also benefiting of the weakness of other classes pruning)

i think in wow every class should have at least 1 special spec, that is more complex and fun than the easy to go specs. like frost vs unholy dk. I think that works quite well in this game.

Like if you just want to play quickly an alt for some WQs or transmogg runs and you are not really a dk player just play frost. Its probably the best one can do in this kinda situation, but if you want see some great pvp, better go unholy.

with rogues its odd now, there is assassin which works ok in its mechanics and design(numbers can change if needed, but i have no doubt this is the top seller of the class) then there is sub, that used to be very cool in one way or another like complex wod gameplay vs legion teleport nuke dmg.

maybe sub could also redesigned to be a more tanky spec?(pvp wise) i like the idea to have more vanishes, def cds and heal more in stealth and also move quicker in stealth.(soothing darkness in pvp allready got nerfed in legion beta to 1% and blizz never changed this back)

well, the removal of azerite traits alone will increase class design. Its really boring to see every class with identical azerite traits that got nerfed to 50%-75% while in pvp.

something like stealth tankiness should be unique - but i do not see how a sub or any other kind of rogues could compete here with a tank and heal druid....at all. I think blizz should go more wild with the rogue next expansion, more deadly uniqueness to combat tanks and healers, would be great and a bit less group pvp design... cause most often than not i find myself and my rogue doing stuff solo - think about AV towers.(where is my healer that should be in my pocket at all times by that kinda blizz pvp design?)

[Coldkil]

Avoid personal attacks. If this devolves into a pointless bickering it's going to be closed.

[Naiattavain]

i remember that wod subtlety was really fun during ashran. sneaking to get the keys to unlock the generals held captive during the battle was a real treat for subtlety rogues. it was an overall fun experience. blizz should get back to their creative efforts making the game brimming with fun activities. lol i don't really play the rogue for entertainment purposes anymore. with legion and bfa i stay logged out of the game mostly.

[shoegazing]

Shadow Dance was easily the most exciting and interesting dps cooldown in the game. The issue became when it was redesigned to be the entire basis of the rotation and gameplay, rather than a burst of awesomeness once per minute that complemented the outstanding classic Rogue toolkit and rotation.

The Shadow Dance charges, and more importantly cooldown reduction mechanic, should be removed in returning to a static 1min CD Dance. This accomplishes:

Reducing the Dance uptime to let classic Rogue abilities like Gouge, Crippling Poison, and Shiv shine in controlling the battlefield rather than relying on one dimensional Cheap Shot spam.

Find Weakness baseline and buffed appropriately for a 1min Dance playstyle. That creates interactivity with our core mechanic, Stealth, for creating burst windows.

Subtlety is at its best as a control spec that picks moments for devastating single target burst. The 1min CD of Shadow Dance is important for the pacing of the spec and the way it creates its windows.

Finally, a note about “rotational” Shadow Dance. This didn’t make the rotation more interesting, it made Shadow Dance worse. What makes oldschool Subtlety so much fun is the management of timing created by having many finishers (slice and dice, rupture, eviscerate, kidney shot), DR categories, pooling energy, and Find Weakness windows.

Playing the spec in PvP meant managing the timings of all those things, and the way they interacted with each other was extremely satisfying.

But the current “rotational Dance” design has removed the things that made the rotation interesting outside of Dance, while also making Dance itself much, much less exciting. This has been a terrible recipe.

They should consider a passive that lets Rogues restealth in PvE without completely dropping combat. Or use PvE traits, legendaries, or some specific system to lower Vanish CD in PvE to allow more frequent Find Weakness application. The key is that there is the variety between the classic Rogue toolkit and rotation, and Shadow Dance as an exciting moment of different possibilities. Both interact with Find Weakness (Stealth), energy, and combo points to control the delivery of our damage and crowd control in ways that create two separate but connected phases in a larger cycle.

The only thing I can think of from Legion and BFA that isn’t altogether terrible is the 2nd charge for Shadowstep. I think that’s a fine design and doesn’t create the same degenerate side effects with the current charge (and CDR) design for “rotational shadow dance”. Assuming going forward that Feint isn’t a spammable shield wall, considering whether Preparation is coming back, and assuming that other classes are getting back tools as well. Then you have to properly evaluate the ability and understand that its value doesn’t scale with encounter length and the real value is that is it allows you to sit on a charge in your pocket without losing the value of regenerating the cooldown. In other words, the charge mechanic interacts in a different and far less disruptive way with our mobility (step) than it does with Dance.

Finally a note about Burst of Speed (since I’m on the topic of mobility) for the few fans you hear mentioning it. You will have to understand that this ability while not preferred over Shadowstep in competitive arena play was still too good in more casual PvP. With that said, it does have value in casual PvE particularly in soloing old raids and farming. You could tune the ability to retain its value in a more casual setting without creating problems in PvP. The way to do so is to preserve the ratio of its energy cost (such that it can be maintained out of combat but not in combat while maintaining a rotation) while proportionately increasing the cooldown so that it can be used less frequently, and scaling to greater energy cost per press, as a snare breaker. Thus it remains useful for out of combat zooming but not for sticking to players with little counter play. Shadowstep is ultimately a much more rewarding in combat button than BoS, BY FAR, and should be basically default for serious play.

[Nervyz]

Shadow Dance was easily the most exciting and interesting dps cooldown in the game. The issue became when it was redesigned to be the entire basis of the rotation and gameplay, rather than a burst of awesomeness once per minute that complemented the outstanding classic Rogue toolkit and rotation.

The Shadow Dance charges, and more importantly cooldown reduction mechanic, should be removed in returning to a static 1min CD Dance. This accomplishes:

Reducing the Dance uptime to let classic Rogue abilities like Gouge, Crippling Poison, and Shiv shine in controlling the battlefield rather than relying on one dimensional Cheap Shot spam.

Find Weakness baseline and buffed appropriately for a 1min Dance playstyle. That creates interactivity with our core mechanic, Stealth, for creating burst windows.

Subtlety is at its best as a control spec that picks moments for devastating single target burst. The 1min CD of Shadow Dance is important for the pacing of the spec and the way it creates its windows.

Yes, I totally agree. Bust of Speed however, is one that shouldn't be re-added as it was since it was simply too strong. If we could keep the double step as sub that would already fix it imho (for those of you who didn't play back then, it was only 1 charge). We shouldn't forget the amount of additional snares and snare breakers that other classes received since then, so the double step imho is very important.

Regarding the utility of Dance, and the cd, I feel like some *minor* reduction system should still be there, just to reduce the cd to max 50 sec (don't forget that in cata there were 2 less classes who bring both their types of interrupts. We also had the offhand weapon chain to reduce disarm uptime.) They could also make dance un-disarmeable like bladestorm is currently. Being disarmed by 3 opponents every time during dance was simply not fun as disarm is on a 45 sec cd with a duration of 6 sec. Alternatively, reduce disarm to 3 sec or something. Inb4 ppl start saying this would make it too strong, please don't forget that Clos was on a way lower CD back then, there was also no Dampening, relentless wasn't in the game unless you were an orc (not counting the gem that most ppl wouldn't take anyways) DK's could actually be slowed, there was infinite dispel,...

Dance to be used as an offensive set-up, or defensive peel cd (stun/silence/ *Disarm Trap!*) + preparation (without double bomb since that was waaay to powerful) with gouge and shiv was great. Shadowblades should stay imho, but it should be reverted to what it was in the past, just a slight increase of dmg, unlike the dmg it provides now.

This post is also to show that getting a lot of the skills back will DEFINITELY bring back way more fun and skill, just that it's not as easy as many people make it out to be. (Imagine being a ret against a mage with the 2 different snare DR's )

my 2cents

[Polarthief]

Just make BoS out of combat only and not usable in PvP instances, if we can actually get it back. For the brief times I've used it, I loved it, but it's absolutely busted and I don't really see how you can tune it to be "balanced". It'll either be too cheap and therefore too good or have a cooldown or cost too much and just be worthless. Instead, it could be a fun out-of-combat mobility option over being mounted (or just a nice boost to indoor mobility when trying to solo old stuff).

Also hell, if it's out-of-combat only, you could make it a toggle (like a mount), in that you activate it and it's just a permanent speed increase until you enter combat, enter a PvP instance, or cancel it yourself. It'd just be a fun addition that has the practical use for hauling ass (and hauling loot you claim from legacy content).

[StillMcfuu]

BoS.

I think easier still, if you are tagged in combat with another player or in a BG, BoS has a cooldown that brings it in line closer to sprint. But for non pvp, and pve it can be up all the time as it used to be.
This might effect wpvp slightly, but that doesn't matter. If you aren't a rogue you are food for a rogue, breaking combat and BoS infinitely isn't going to change much for non-rogues.

[Polarthief]

I think easier still, if you are tagged in combat with another player or in a BG, BoS has a cooldown that brings it in line closer to sprint. But for non pvp, and pve it can be up all the time as it used to be.

Do we really need a third cooldown though? They could easily make Manuverability better by reducing the CD of Sprint/Hook/SS or something if it's actually necessary (I wouldn't know, I don't PvP, but last I checked, Rogues are pretty good there, right?), but I don't think it is.

[shoegazing]

For the record, I am 100% fine with Burst of Speed never seeing the light of day again. It is not a healthy ability for the game. With that said, I am simply pointing out that it is possible to tune it so that is remains useful in casual PvE while rendering it useless in more competitive play due to cooldown and energy cost. Someone made the point that it would be worthless if the CD and energy cost were raised, and well.... yes, that's the entire point. It should not ever be an attractive option.

Truth be told, I'm quite disappointed to see Burst of Speed mentioned in threads about unpruning when it's hardly comparable to real classic Rogue buttons that we've lost like Gouge, Poisons, Shiv, Bleeds, Slice and Dice, Premeditation, Preparation, etc..... But it's clear from the # of mentions that there is an audience that misses the button.

[Cyanu]

personally i like the shadowy aesthetics of sub as something to set it apart from assasination... i mean how different can 2 stealthy, dagger-wielding poisoners be?

in terms of mechanics sub deserves more control/mobility than the other specs. if they become too similar sub ends up as the gimped cousin of assasination

that said gameplay is clunky and could use some refinement from both the older variations and new ideas

[Polarthief]

Truth be told, I'm quite disappointed to see Burst of Speed mentioned in threads about unpruning when it's hardly comparable to real classic Rogue buttons that we've lost like Gouge, Poisons, Shiv, Bleeds, Slice and Dice, Premeditation, Preparation, etc..... But it's clear from the # of mentions that there is an audience that misses the button.

They miss it because running around at high speeds is fun and saves you time from the monotony of going from point A to B to C, especially in old legacy content when you're just there to farm a specific boss for vanity or other reasons.

For an actual kit, I don't really care to see BoS brought back, but I will gladly accept free speed for out-of-combat scenarios. In combat, we have Sprint and a spec-specific second option (Hook/SS).

personally i like the shadowy aesthetics of sub as something to set it apart from assasination... i mean how different can 2 stealthy, dagger-wielding poisoners be?

in terms of mechanics sub deserves more control/mobility than the other specs. if they become too similar sub ends up as the gimped cousin of assasination

that said gameplay is clunky and could use some refinement from both the older variations and new ideas

TBH I'd love to see Sin become a sneaky archer (and become a ranged spec) or something. Sneaky archer ("One shot, one kill") is still an archetype not yet in WoW.

If they wanted to instead, they could also go with throwing weapons, instead of traditional ranged weapons, that would just replicate your daggers and since they're magical and shit, they return to your hand or they don't even need a reason because where the hell does Sub get its thousands of Shurikens it throws, or Sub all its poisoned knives anyway?

But you get my point. It'd be nice to fill that Sneaky Archer archetype since MM doesn't do it and BM does it even less.

[Redzonetode]

I doubt they'll do it, but I would love a ranged spec redesign for Sub. A lot of cool ideas mentioned in here.

[gd8]

TBH I'd love to see Sin become a sneaky archer (and become a ranged spec) or something. Sneaky archer ("One shot, one kill") is still an archetype not yet in WoW.

If they wanted to instead, they could also go with throwing weapons, instead of traditional ranged weapons, that would just replicate your daggers and since they're magical and shit, they return to your hand or they don't even need a reason because where the hell does Sub get its thousands of Shurikens it throws, or Sub all its poisoned knives anyway?

But you get my point. It'd be nice to fill that Sneaky Archer archetype since MM doesn't do it and BM does it even less.

I agree a throwing weapon oriented spec could be cool. only problem i see is throwing knives/axes at somebody would look stupid in melee ranging but maybe it could work by making it so auto-attacking at ranged throws your daggers/axes at the target but then if they/you get into melee range you just start attack with them as melee. could work similarly to how melee survival/enhancement works rn as a sort of in between melee/range class

[shoegazing]

People suggesting that any Rogue spec should be come a ranged spec have no respect for the history of this class and the people who have happily played their spec for years who don't want these kinds of changes.

[RelaZ]

Congratulations, I've been following your pleas now for a rework for quite some time now (on multiple forums). It sounds like they might actually be making significant changes to revert Sub back to the glorious spec it used to be. Good work. I might actually, for once, consider once and for all finally abandoning my Feral for Sub. Thematically, I love Cata and WoD Sub (didn't really like MoP BoS Sub all that much). If they essentially reverted to Cata Sub Rogue I'd change immediately.

+Gouge
+Shiv
+Find Weakness (old designs)
+1minc CD 1 charge Dance (without talents to change it)
+SnD, Rupture, Expose Armor, Eviscerate, Sinister Strike/Hemo/Backstab rotation - no "shadow" rotation.
-Subterfuge (I hope this dies in a fire, along with all the casual AoE built into ST abilities of almost all specs/classes)

Just want to raise one word of caution: https://youtu.be/6OHDAwg-Tw4?t=1746 (watch for just over 1min - "I don't think you'll see as extensive class changes as in Legion, we're going to be mostly additive"). They're saying they won't be doing big overhauls. Maybe Sub is the exception (and I hope Feral, although it's not on quite the same scale of needed changes) but you never know. I wouldn't take anything for granted yet. It might be the ol' "we say we'll give you this, but really we're giving you that" - one step forward, two steps backwards.

But hey... I hope Feral will get a similar revertion (no gcd on shapeshift, no affinities - everything baseline, innervate, faerie swarm/typhoon/mass entanglement talent row, bash/disorienting roar/ursol's vortex talent row, hibernate on ps, no bloodtalons, proper snapshotting on all short duration buffs, no sabertooth, no brutal slash in st rotation, old 25% execute, no Cat Form Moonfire, savage roar baseline w. snapshotting & QoL from MoP/WoD, barkskin, only 1 charge of survival instincts but 12 second duration, Cyclone either instant on PS or castable in form).