Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Malaky]

His first exposure to the audience was absolutely vader-like. Heck he even mastered some kind of stasis force power which until that point was only known from the games. As far as force abilities go, that one was pretty far up there.

They broke his character down to vader-fanboy once he took off the helmet, from there it was a constant downward spiral for the character until he finally earned the Dipshit title.

Pretty much.

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Yes, yes. I know. The villain being defeated in their first fight doesn't count if he was defeated by something other than a girl. She didn't even get an awards ceremony with a fancy medal.

Vader wasn't defeated there. Not sure what you're trying to say.

[minteK917]

Yes, yes. I know. The villain being defeated in their first fight doesn't count if he was defeated by something other than a girl. She didn't even get an awards ceremony with a fancy medal.

You miss the point actually. Luke didnt defeat Vader, it was actually Han coming back (which again comes into a lesson learned). He came back because he valued his friends more then money as he keep saying. Heres how a better TFA would have played. Rey starts the movie not wanting help at all(a moral weakness). That would then be the reason why she ultimatly rush out and gets captured. Finn then is the opposite, he wants to get the fuck out of there. She is then defeated by Kylo on star killer and then saved by Finn, that woulda been a huge boost to Finn and a huge boost to Rey at the same time. Im not saying Finn should have lightsaber dueled him, infact he got rekted hard as he should have been, but more like come at the last minute to help her escape death. Lesson learned by the main character being helped is not a weakness, lesson learned by a secondary main character, running for selfish reasons is not good. Thats just one example to write better characters. Her failing coulda been in episode 8 also with the dark side stuff. We are already at the last film and Rey has made no actual progress, we arent even shown what she is suposed to be her challenge, she was written to not need any (not talking combat or power).

Luke also had his failing in the second movie. Yoda told him not to go, trust his friends suffering. He did not, ultimatly Luke accomplished nothing at all. Lando would have still freed everyone but Han. And they would have escaped. The only thing Luke manage to accomplish is walk into a trap, lose a hand and have the others come back to rescue him. Its part of why he can leave endor to face the emperor and vader, his faith in his friends being able to get by on their own is now fixed.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

We know how the movie ends:
Rey wields the lightsaber of Luke and Leia and their force ghosts show up and kill him after Ben Solo is killed by Palpatine.

[minteK917]

We know how the movie ends:
Rey wields the lightsaber of Luke and Leia and their force ghosts show up and kill him after Ben Solo is killed by Palpatine.

If thats the true ending, im pretty sure even people that liked these movies would be disapointed. Its even worse then lord of the ring saving of frodo. If Jedi force ghosts can kill living people. Pretty sure Obiwan, Quigon and Yoda could have ended these wars quickly, just force ghost kill the emperor when hes sleeping. Then disney has to make a comic or video game about how palpatine made a special bedroom with sith runes that prevent force ghost to visit him in his sleep i guess! Mabye some kind of building game where you build stuff for the empire, but the emperor always has those weird orders, ok make these walls have these runes! The emperor died to master yoda force ghost during his sleep, mission failed remake this building.

If it was so easy, man Obiwan and Yoda are fucking assholes. Letting luke alone 2v1 on the death star.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

If thats the true ending, im pretty sure even people that liked these movies would be disapointed. Its even worse then lord of the ring saving of frodo. If Jedi force ghosts can kill living people. Pretty sure Obiwan, Quigon and Yoda could have ended these wars quickly, just force ghost kill the emperor when hes sleeping. Then disney has to make a comic or video game about how palpatine made a special bedroom with sith runes that prevent force ghost to visit him in his sleep i guess! Mabye some kind of building game where you build stuff for the empire, but the emperor always has those weird orders, ok make these walls have these runes! The emperor died to master yoda force ghost during his sleep, mission failed remake this building.

If it was so easy, man Obiwan and Yoda are fucking assholes. Letting luke alone 2v1 on the death star.

It is because
In the beginning, literally in the beginning of the movie as it starts, Leia pregnant with Ben gives him her Lightsaber because her pregnancy interferes with her jedi training and she wants him to train her son. To be just like him, hence the movie name the rise of skywalker. The lightsaber doesn’t show up again until after leia dies during when Rey is trying to find the sith daggers before kylo finds them too massive spoilers for the movie


The part that pisses me off the most is that
Kylo dies by getting force pushed into a ditch by Palpatine. NO FIGHT SCENE HE JUST SHOWS UP AFTER BEING REDEEMED BY FORCE GHOST HAN SOLO AFTER THE DEATH STAR FIGHT WEVE SEEN AND GETS THROWN INTO A DITCH. amazing writing!!

[oplawlz]

If thats the true ending, im pretty sure even people that liked these movies would be disapointed. Its even worse then lord of the ring saving of frodo. If Jedi force ghosts can kill living people. Pretty sure Obiwan, Quigon and Yoda could have ended these wars quickly, just force ghost kill the emperor when hes sleeping. Then disney has to make a comic or video game about how palpatine made a special bedroom with sith runes that prevent force ghost to visit him in his sleep i guess! Mabye some kind of building game where you build stuff for the empire, but the emperor always has those weird orders, ok make these walls have these runes! The emperor died to master yoda force ghost during his sleep, mission failed remake this building.

If it was so easy, man Obiwan and Yoda are fucking assholes. Letting luke alone 2v1 on the death star.

But we already have proof that Kennedy gives no shits about continuity or logic - remember, every vehicle with a functioning hyperdrive can destroy imperial flagships.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

But we already have proof that Kennedy gives no shits about continuity or logic - remember, every vehicle with a functioning hyperdrive can destroy imperial flagships.

Just wait until you see how Rey destroys Chewbacca’s ship just by shooting some force lightning at it

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But we already have proof that Kennedy gives no shits about continuity or logic - remember, every vehicle with a functioning hyperdrive can destroy imperial flagships.

This was an old eu thing not something Kennedy made up. You could argue that it was used to stick to continuity if the old wars example of it is canon.

[minteK917]

It is because
In the beginning, literally in the beginning of the movie as it starts, Leia pregnant with Ben gives him her Lightsaber because her pregnancy interferes with her jedi training and she wants him to train her son. To be just like him, hence the movie name the rise of skywalker. The lightsaber doesn’t show up again until after leia dies during when Rey is trying to find the sith daggers before kylo finds them too massive spoilers for the movie


The part that pisses me off the most is that
Kylo dies by getting force pushed into a ditch by Palpatine. NO FIGHT SCENE HE JUST SHOWS UP AFTER BEING REDEEMED BY FORCE GHOST HAN SOLO AFTER THE DEATH STAR FIGHT WEVE SEEN AND GETS THROWN INTO A DITCH. amazing writing!!

That still doesent make sense. If it was so easy or needed an object, why can obiwan ghost be on Dagoba. For that matter, why are yoda, anakin and obiwan on the moon of Endor at the end. They are fucking assholes? If the dark side in a room can prevent force ghost (i guess that could be an excuse) I dont expect the fucking emperor throne room to be very light side of the fucking force?

[AceofH]

Agree. Although, who really cares about Finn, Rey or Kylo? Compare these to the original trio and their sidekicks. Their fates are so predictable. Finn will be the First Order-turned-Resistance hero (alive or post mortem). Rey will overcome everything and win. Kylo will be defeated (either alive or dead) and be the sad 'downfall' character that Anakin was mid-RotS.

What would be REALLY cool and subversive is if Rey turned to the Dark side and killed everyone, and became Palpatine's new apprentice and allowed the First Order to take control of the galaxy. But it's Disney, so there is no way that will happen.

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You seriously cannot compare Rey's character arc to Luke. I agree it is premature to do this before the trilogy has ended, but seriously. There is no comparison between the Luke/Yoda training scenes in ESB than the Rey/Luke scenes in TLJ. In ESB we learn that Luke is Vaders son which legitimises his growing power and adds a complex arc to his story - he doesn't just have to kill the 'evil Sith guy', he has to kill his DAD.

Rey in TLJ, as far as we know, has found out her parents are random pissheads, yet she is still super powerful without any context. Before anyone says the kid at the end represents 'anyone can wield the force', then the writing has become so poor with such a tenuous excuse.

not only is rey someone with no perceivable explanation for how strong she is, but she also somehow won in a lightsaber fight the first time she touched one, with no training, against someone who has trained his entire life with one. with no real explanation as to how.

remember how lukes first real lightsaber fight went? where he got his butt kicked by dear old dad? and he'd been training for two years at that point. now granted, not anywhere nearly as long as Vader, but still. he had 2 years experience and lost. Rey had no experience and one.

Rey is the epitome of a bland mary sue.

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Uh that's literally how the Force works with the Skywalkers being the exception.

The Jedi (and Sith) would be like rabbits if you just passed down your force potential or whatever you want to call it through your genes.

Also Rey is literally the stand in for Luke, as Luke is Yoda, Kylo is Vader, Snoke is Sidious, BB8 is R2, Poe and Finn are Han.

huge difference - Luke got his butt kicked hard his first time in a real lightsaber fight, despite 2 years of training. sure, against vader, who has decades of training, and rightfully so.
how did reys first fight go again? explain how and why that should happen.

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The Skywalkers are the exception, not the rule. Jedi generally don't have kids; there are strict rules against having a family. That's sort of what caused the whole issue between Anakin and Padme, y'know.

Yet, somehow, there's always new younglings.

Because Force sensitivity is not solely (and perhaps not at all) genetic. About the only example we have of that is the Skywalker line, but the Force is already fucking around with them, since it essentially created Anakin without needing a genetic father at all. The Skywalkers are the exception, not the rule.

Force sensitivity has always just "cropped up" in kids with no family history of Force use. That's how it's always been in Star Wars.



She WANTS friends. She didn't HAVE friends, really. That was the point I was making.

You're admitting that she changes over the course of the story, which was my point.

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I feel this is a disservice to Leia.

only example you have is the skywalker line? try again. does the names Revan or Shan ring a bell?

[Endus]

not only is rey someone with no perceivable explanation for how strong she is

Except for the explicit explanation in the film, which you're ignoring, for some reason.

The same explanation that existed for Anakin, roughly.

The same principles that were laid out in the Original Trilogy.

but she also somehow won in a lightsaber fight the first time she touched one, with no training, against someone who has trained his entire life with one. with no real explanation as to how.

1> Force instincts. Same way Luke could hit a bullseye without targeting computers his first time flying an X-wing. The same way Anakin could take out a droid battle station at age 6, in his first time in a fighter craft.

2> She has combat training with melee weapons. She's a skilled fighter. Again, this is explicitly established in the film well before she ever touches a lightsaber.

remember how lukes first real lightsaber fight went? where he got his butt kicked by dear old dad? and he'd been training for two years at that point. now granted, not anywhere nearly as long as Vader, but still. he had 2 years experience and lost. Rey had no experience and one.

Vader hadn't been shot in the gut with the equivalent of an anti-materiel rifle. Ren had.

Luke does not get trained for two years. He has a few days with Obi-Wan, at best. And with Yoda, while there's no clear indication, it could be as little as a day or two. It's more likely a few weeks. It isn't two years. If you're going to allow for a time dilation between what's going on in the Falcon and what's going on on Dagobah, despite the filming, you've got no reason to not make the same assumption with Rey on Ach-To, as compared to what's happening with the 12-hour chase with the fleets.

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only example you have is the skywalker line? try again. does the names Revan or Shan ring a bell?

They don't canonically exist, regardless of being part of Legends material.

Regardless, they don't even contradict my point, there; Revan himself was born to nobodies on the Outer Rim, and wasn't part of some grand genetic line of Force users. Force sensitivity does not require a genetic heritage. It never has.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

That still doesent make sense. If it was so easy or needed an object, why can obiwan ghost be on Dagoba. For that matter, why are yoda, anakin and obiwan on the moon of Endor at the end. They are fucking assholes? If the dark side in a room can prevent force ghost (i guess that could be an excuse) I dont expect the fucking emperor throne room to be very light side of the fucking force?

Remember who's writing this. But yep. That is what happens, if you don't believe me, the opening night of TROS is waiting for you.

[AceofH]

Except for the explicit explanation in the film, which you're ignoring, for some reason.

The same explanation that existed for Anakin, roughly.

The same principles that were laid out in the Original Trilogy.



1> Force instincts. Same way Luke could hit a bullseye without targeting computers his first time flying an X-wing. The same way Anakin could take out a droid battle station at age 6, in his first time in a fighter craft.

2> She has combat training with melee weapons. She's a skilled fighter. Again, this is explicitly established in the film well before she ever touches a lightsaber.



Vader hadn't been shot in the gut with the equivalent of an anti-materiel rifle. Ren had.

Luke does not get trained for two years. He has a few days with Obi-Wan, at best. And with Yoda, while there's no clear indication, it could be as little as a day or two. It's more likely a few weeks. It isn't two years. If you're going to allow for a time dilation between what's going on in the Falcon and what's going on on Dagobah, despite the filming, you've got no reason to not make the same assumption with Rey on Ach-To, as compared to what's happening with the 12-hour chase with the fleets.

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They don't canonically exist, regardless of being part of Legends material.

Regardless, they don't even contradict my point, there; Revan himself was born to nobodies on the Outer Rim, and wasn't part of some grand genetic line of Force users. Force sensitivity does not require a genetic heritage. It never has.

anakin still lost and still had training before he did literally anything relevant.
force instincts? Luke still had training when he did that.
she had combat training with melee weapons. yeah. to fight against scavengers. not a jedi. not with a lightsaber. you fan boys will make up any excuse in the book. face it, shes a huge mary sue.
you think luke didn't continue to train with the force over the two years despite no obi wan? go try again. still far more then rey ever got.
kotor and the entire legends is far more canon then anything disney has given us.
your right. they don't contradict your point. their offspring do. maybe you should learn something.

if kotor isn't canon why does disney keep borrowing form it?

[Endus]

anakin still lost and still had training before he did literally anything relevant.

Objectively, obviously false. He saves the day in APM at age 6 without any training.

force instincts? Luke still had training when he did that.

Minimal training. And significant mental blocks. These are the same instincts that 6-year old Anakin was tapping into to podrace.

she had combat training with melee weapons. yeah. to fight against scavengers. not a jedi. not with a lightsaber. you fan boys will make up any excuse in the book. face it, shes a huge mary sue.

Lightsabers aren't that different from other weapons, in terms of wielding one. That's established time and time again. Nor do they require the Force to effectively use. General Grievous certainly doesn't use the Force, and he uses 4 sabers at a time.

I'm just not accepting nonsense you make up that is contradicted by the films. I'm not even arguing that Rey is a good character. But you're making up stuff that is flat-out wrong in the Star Wars universe.

you think luke didn't continue to train with the force over the two years despite no obi wan? go try again. still far more then rey ever got.

Before Dagobah?

Yes. I know he didn't, because that's why he goes to Dagobah. He's still incapable of the most basic use of the Force, because of his mental blocks. Literally the entire point of that sequence. You're arguing against the films.

kotor and the entire legends is far more canon then anything disney has given us.

That's definitively false. You not liking the canon does not change what's canon.

your right. they don't contradict your point. their offspring do. maybe you should learn something.

If you took some time to re-read what I originally wrote, I never said that Force potential can't pass from parents to their kids. You're arguing against something I never said.

Not surprising, since most of your other points are arguing against stuff the films explicitly stated.

[AceofH]

Objectively, obviously false. He saves the day in APM at age 6 without any training.



Minimal training. And significant mental blocks. These are the same instincts that 6-year old Anakin was tapping into to podrace.



Lightsabers aren't that different from other weapons, in terms of wielding one. That's established time and time again. Nor do they require the Force to effectively use. General Grievous certainly doesn't use the Force, and he uses 4 sabers at a time.

I'm just not accepting nonsense you make up that is contradicted by the films. I'm not even arguing that Rey is a good character. But you're making up stuff that is flat-out wrong in the Star Wars universe.



Before Dagobah?

Yes. I know he didn't, because that's why he goes to Dagobah. He's still incapable of the most basic use of the Force, because of his mental blocks. Literally the entire point of that sequence. You're arguing against the films.



That's definitively false. You not liking the canon does not change what's canon.



If you took some time to re-read what I originally wrote, I never said that Force potential can't pass from parents to their kids. You're arguing against something I never said.

Not surprising, since most of your other points are arguing against stuff the films explicitly stated.

not with a lightsaber he didn't. and he'd be using his force powers, the ones you're referring too, all his life.

you mean those same instincts we literally never see rey tap into at all? yeah good try.

lightsaber fights are very different then other weapons, because of the very nature of them. the ability to deflect ranged attacks, the weight, and the ability to do highly dangerous maneuvers like turning it off to slip inside your opponents guard and then turning it back on to kill them. grevious was trained extensively in the use of a lightsaber and was mostly a friggen robot.

no - he goes to dagobah to train under a friggen master again. we literally see examples of him using the force before then and learning more in the very canon novel "Heir to the Jedi".

it is canon because disney literally borrows from it. if Disney is willing to use story elements from Kotor, they in fact make it canon themselves.
you literally said that the skywalkers were the only family that show force sensitive being passed on. i showed you were wrong.

[minteK917]

Is anyone gona answer my question? What is Rey weakness to over come in these films? Not talking purely combat. What failing has she displayed that could lead to her downfall? What are the steps she has taken to over come it? What did she learn? What is her story line as a chosen one with powers? So far Poe is the only one with some kind of conssitent story among the good guys i guess, a bad one, but at least there is some kind of thing he has to over come. Finn kinda over came his too fast, now he was just dragged along, killing himself to save others would actually have been 100% on point with his arc, He start his journey running away, then he was about to leave han and rey to run away, his journey finished not running away for himself but dying for others, a heroes journey. Kylo had the most development hes actually a solid character, if only he was in more competent films.

[Malaky]

He was defeated just as much as Kylo was.

How is one guy getting pushed off into space the same as one guy getting his face cleaved in a lightsaber duel?

Even for you this is ridiculous.

[Endus]

you mean those same instincts we literally never see rey tap into at all? yeah good try.

Except for all the times she does and you get angry because there's no way she should be able to do X (except she can use the Force, which was always enough before).

lightsaber fights are very different then other weapons, because of the very nature of them. the ability to deflect ranged attacks, the weight, and the ability to do highly dangerous maneuvers like turning it off to slip inside your opponents guard and then turning it back on to kill them. grevious was trained extensively in the use of a lightsaber and was mostly a friggen robot.

This is stuff you're making up. Combat skills translate pretty readily to new weapons. Especially when you've got the Force backing you up.

This has always been true in Star Wars. Why is it suddenly an issue when it's Rey?

We don't see Rey deflect blaster bolts at all.

no - he goes to dagobah to train under a friggen master again. we literally see examples of him using the force before then and learning more in the very canon novel "Heir to the Jedi".

Haven't read it, but it it's irrelevant; you claimed he'd "trained for two years", but there's only two masters he's trained with; Obi-Wan and Yoda. He trains for a couple days with the first, and maybe a few weeks with the second. Not "two years".

it is canon because disney literally borrows from it. if Disney is willing to use story elements from Kotor, they in fact make it canon themselves.
you literally said that the skywalkers were the only family that show force sensitive being passed on. i showed you were wrong.

That isn't how canon works, no.

Legends material is non-canon, all of it, definitively. If Disney chooses to re-use something from Legends, that Legends material doesn't become canon, the new version, by Disney, does.

I was referring to canon, not Legends material.

You're moving goalposts.

Is anyone gona answer my question? What is Rey weakness to over come in these films? Not talking purely combat. What failing has she displayed that could lead to her downfall? What are the steps she has taken to over come it? What did she learn? What is her story line as a chosen one with powers?

In order;
1> She's insecure, has a need for attachment due to feeling abandoned, is impatient, and she leaps without looking. These are all pretty explicitly stated; people claiming she has no flaws are simply not watching the films very closely.

2> Leaping without looking, easily. In her training with Luke, she reached right out to the Dark Side without any hesitation at all. This is explicitly stated, in dialogue, and there's really no excuse for skipping it. It's important.

3> None. Yet. And maybe won't. There's another film to go.

4> She's learned a lot. Seriously, watch the films.

5> She isn't a "chosen one", in any appreciable sense. Snoke says some stuff about the Force trying to rebalance itself, and she's the incarnation of that, but there isn't any prophecy, and she doesn't have any particularly special "powers" other than access to the Force (which is by no means unique); she's very strong in the Force, but only as much as Kylo Ren. And again, there's another film to go. The story isn't over.

[s_bushido]

Is anyone gona answer my question? What is Rey weakness to over come in these films?

I don't know. What failings did prequel Obi-Wan have to overcome? He's one of the most active and important characters in those movies and yet outside of some token rebukes from Qui-Gon about his inexperience in ep.I, he is consistently portrayed as confident and competent. Pretty sure the only villains in those movies he didn't outright defeat single-handedly were Jango, Dooku, and Palpatine himself...the latter two not even Yoda could take down alone.

You want me to say that Rey hasn't had much character growth? Sure. Rey hasn't had much character growth. Now tell the class why that makes these movies the worst things ever, despite Finn, Kylo, Luke, and Poe (to some extent) all going through their own changes throughout?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

kotor and the entire legends is far more canon then anything disney has given us.

this actually couldn't be more untrue. If your going with old lucus starwars then nothing about his 7 movies and the clone wars cartoon is canon Lucus said he saw all other extended material as another universe.

kotor isn't canon why does disney keep borrowing form it?

disney put all of the old canon into "legends" so all of the old republic stuff is told as a story's in the universe by some one some where and they can pick what they want to be true to bring it into the new canon.