Blizzard designed themselves into a corner with M+

[Jastall]

Why would you have to "lug it around"? Banks are a thing for a reason. I just dont see a problem at all.

Keep my offspec sets in the bank, that also sounds great. Won't be annoying at all when I tank a M+ and forget to dredge my shit from the hundred+ items stored there.

Plus I dislike the concept of an item being good in place X and terrible in place Y for reasons. I disliked that with Benthic gear and I would hate that with these sets that only solve a "problem" that exists in the head of some people who can't handle that raids aren't the exclusive be-all and end-all of PvE anymore.

[arkanon]

Keep my offspec sets in the bank, that also sounds great. Won't be annoying at all when I tank a M+ and forget to dredge my shit from the hundred+ items stored there.

Plus I dislike the concept of an item being good in place X and terrible in place Y for reasons. I disliked that with Benthic gear and I would hate that with these sets that only solve a "problem" that exists in the head of some people who can't handle that raids aren't the exclusive be-all and end-all of PvE anymore.

These are two key factors of your argument, and they are both gross exagerations. First off, gear sets exist - you click on the bank, and then you click on your gear set, and it auto equips everything. Either you are completely aware of this, but intentionally ignore this fact to make it seem like some arduous task that would drain your energy, when it is infact literally 2 clicks of the mouse. Or, you are not aware of this, in which case im really not sure you should be talking about the design of the game at all.

Same goes for the use of the word "terrible". No one mentioned that word, you used it to exaggerate the gap between gear sets. You intentionally make it sound like the gap between sets would be 50% or something extreme, when in reality we all know it would be 5-10% at absolute most.

[Jastall]

These are two key factors of your argument, and they are both gross exagerations. First off, gear sets exist - you click on the bank, and then you click on your gear set, and it auto equips everything. Either you are completely aware of this, but intentionally ignore this fact to make it seem like some arduous task that would drain your energy, when it is infact literally 2 clicks of the mouse. Or, you are not aware of this, in which case im really not sure you should be talking about the design of the game at all.

Same goes for the use of the word "terrible". No one mentioned that word, you used it to exaggerate the gap between gear sets. You intentionally make it sound like the gap between sets would be 50% or something extreme, when in reality we all know it would be 5-10% at absolute most.

It's not finding the items that would annoy me, but having to go to the bank. This game is enough of an inventory management simulator sometimes, I really don't want to start juggling dozens of items more, and I don't even PvP even. Separate sets for arenas and BGs? What the fuck kind of joke is this. Imagine a Druid or Shaman who uses 3 specs to some degree and engages in raids, M+ and arenas. That's up to 9 fucking different sets to farm and maintain. Even if just 2 specs that's 6 sets. It was annoying enough when you didn't get your 4pc or BiS Azerite armor early in a tier/season before, now multiply that sixfold.

5-10% gap IS terrible if you're pushing content. Ask a Mythic raider or +20 key pusher if they want to do 5-10% less DPS or healing, they'll scream bloody murder. And for the rest, it just feels bad to perform below par in an activity because you haven't farmed enough of that particular activity. Gear should be gear. It shouldn't be harshly divided in M+ gear, raid gear, open world gear, BG gear, and arena gear.

Blizzard tried to segregate gear like that, t'was called Resilience and it was horrible as well. The only time it kinda worked was in WoD when they made PvP gear have Mythic ilvl against players but Heroic against mobs, but even that was meh and only acceptable because it was PvP versus PvE. If you segregate gear like that, you just encourage people to tunnel one facet of the game and completely ignore the rest. Yeah, some people may want to raidlog, but the rest of us like more than one activity, and I sure as fuck don't want to be crippled in M+ because I don't spend my life running it, all in the name of satisfying the snowflake syndrome of people who think the best gear should come from raids and only ever from raids.

[Relapses]

These are two key factors of your argument, and they are both gross exagerations. First off, gear sets exist - you click on the bank, and then you click on your gear set, and it auto equips everything. Either you are completely aware of this, but intentionally ignore this fact to make it seem like some arduous task that would drain your energy, when it is infact literally 2 clicks of the mouse. Or, you are not aware of this, in which case im really not sure you should be talking about the design of the game at all.

Same goes for the use of the word "terrible". No one mentioned that word, you used it to exaggerate the gap between gear sets. You intentionally make it sound like the gap between sets would be 50% or something extreme, when in reality we all know it would be 5-10% at absolute most.

5-10% is a lot when you're a player who likes to always be performing at their best. Artificial restrictions like this would discourage a player like me from doing this content. Right now, I can do both and I'm happy that I can do both. Raiding doesn't suffer from this nor does M+. But with a system where gear is tailor fit for each type of content, now I have to worry about investing time into both types of content to get the same sense of accomplishment I do now. Rather than commit myself to that, I'd probably just avoid one type of content all together. So now you have a player who easily would have been able to do both types of content having to consciously decide where to hone my efforts. On the scale of a single player this may seem insignificant but if you were to expand this to 10-20% of the current endgame content playerbase and suddenly that wait for a tank on your M+ PuG goes from manageable to not even worth the effort.

Obviously, it's possible I'm grossly over estimating the amount of people who care about their performance the way I do; however, I still don't think a system like this would serve to do much other than further segregate an already fairly fragmented playerbase. Imo, the problem it's looking to solve -- gear is boring -- isn't nearly as bad as the other problems this type of solution creates.

[Indil]

As a ce player i hate M+ since day one.
If it wasn't for the weekly cache, i wouldn't step foot it them, ever.

[arkanon]

It's not finding the items that would annoy me, but having to go to the bank. This game is enough of an inventory management simulator sometimes, I really don't want to start juggling dozens of items more, and I don't even PvP even. Separate sets for arenas and BGs? What the fuck kind of joke is this. Imagine a Druid or Shaman who uses 3 specs to some degree and engages in raids, M+ and arenas. That's up to 9 fucking different sets to farm and maintain. Even if just 2 specs that's 6 sets. It was annoying enough when you didn't get your 4pc or BiS Azerite armor early in a tier/season before, now multiply that sixfold.

5-10% gap IS terrible if you're pushing content. Ask a Mythic raider or +20 key pusher if they want to do 5-10% less DPS or healing, they'll scream bloody murder. And for the rest, it just feels bad to perform below par in an activity because you haven't farmed enough of that particular activity. Gear should be gear. It shouldn't be harshly divided in M+ gear, raid gear, open world gear, BG gear, and arena gear.

Blizzard tried to segregate gear like that, t'was called Resilience and it was horrible as well. The only time it kinda worked was in WoD when they made PvP gear have Mythic ilvl against players but Heroic against mobs, but even that was meh and only acceptable because it was PvP versus PvE. If you segregate gear like that, you just encourage people to tunnel one facet of the game and completely ignore the rest. Yeah, some people may want to raidlog, but the rest of us like more than one activity, and I sure as fuck don't want to be crippled in M+ because I don't spend my life running it, all in the name of satisfying the snowflake syndrome of people who think the best gear should come from raids and only ever from raids.

Again, your argument is completely idiotic. If you care about the content and a 5% gap in performance so much, you would get the right gear. Jesus Christ how is this hard for you to understand? Who the hell starts at m+20? Lolol, do you not realise how stupid that is to say? If they are running enough m+ to be doing a +20 or higher, they will already be decked out in m+ gear.

I am honestly gobsmacked that you can't understand such a simple concept.

[Sansnom]

For me, the fix would be really simple:

Dungeon gear with an item level above baseline mythics can't be worn in raids.

Raid gear can't be worn at all in mythic+ dungeons.

PvE gear can't be worn at all in PvP and vice versa.

Bring back gear sets with different bonuses for all of these activities. Enable players to say "my endgame is pvp/mythic+/raiding" instead of having it all be complementary to each other.

And here is what I think is the problem. Gear. Loot. It is all about who gets what from doing what.

Personally, I rather not carry multiple sets of gears around.

[Jastall]

Again, your argument is completely idiotic. If you care about the content and a 5% gap in performance so much, you would get the right gear. Jesus Christ how is this hard for you to understand? Who the hell starts at m+20? Lolol, do you not realise how stupid that is to say? If they are running enough m+ to be doing a +20 or higher, they will already be decked out in m+ gear.

I am honestly gobsmacked that you can't understand such a simple concept.

I'm running +15s and barely have any M+ pieces at all in either of my gearsets, only one Azerite piece in my tank set and a weapon in my DPS one. Guildies who do run +18/19/20s have maybe 3 or 4 M+ pieces max, the rest is all raid (and Benthic in EP obviously) gear. So no, we wouldn't be, we would have to farm an entirely separate gearset to perform at the same levels we do right now. Transitioning from one type of content to the other shouldn't inflict that much of a handicap. And if the M+ set bonus is easy to get so much so that you don't need to farm it, then what's the point of it existing in the first place?

You're insisting on a model that increases farming requirements (potentially by a lot, especially for multiple specs), clog up player bags, creates artificial barriers between content that is similar enough, and would perhaps foster even more toxicity than now ("LFM +10, have full M+ gearset or get fucked"). And what's the gain, exactly? That a few raiders don't have to touch icky ugly M+ ever? Be still, my heart, as if the game doesn't already bend over backwards for us raiders.

Also noticed you stay fixated on the 5% point and completely ignore the other arguments in favor of insults. That's not exactly inspiring confidence.

[Mask]

The solution is to have unique and desirable loot from each of M+, arenas, and raiding. If people want to do all 3 pillars of play to get their choice from absolutely every cool item in the game then let them. Don't make it a requirement to progress, but also don't make it useless for the people who want to explore the whole game in every way.

[arkanon]

I'm running +15s and barely have any M+ pieces at all in either of my gearsets, only one Azerite piece in my tank set and a weapon in my DPS one. Guildies who do run +18/19/20s have maybe 3 or 4 M+ pieces max, the rest is all raid (and Benthic in EP obviously) gear. So no, we wouldn't be, we would have to farm an entirely separate gearset to perform at the same levels we do right now. Transitioning from one type of content to the other shouldn't inflict that much of a handicap. And if the M+ set bonus is easy to get so much so that you don't need to farm it, then what's the point of it existing in the first place?

You're insisting on a model that increases farming requirements (potentially by a lot, especially for multiple specs), clog up player bags, creates artificial barriers between content that is similar enough, and would perhaps foster even more toxicity than now ("LFM +10, have full M+ gearset or get fucked"). And what's the gain, exactly? That a few raiders don't have to touch icky ugly M+ ever? Be still, my heart, as if the game doesn't already bend over backwards for us raiders.

Also noticed you stay fixated on the 5% point and completely ignore the other arguments in favor of insults. That's not exactly inspiring confidence.

OK first off, no one is "insisting on" anything, i am suggesting an alternative to the current system. Every time you reply you use EXTREME exaggeration in every respect. Honestly, your argument is almost entirely formed from fallacies. Since when has M+ been "close enough" to mythic raiding? The two have almost nothing in common. And you keep only focusing on M+ and Mythic raiding, while ingoring the FACT that the majority of players don't do either.

You seem to have an extremely self centered view of how things should be, while ignoring the overwhelming majority of the player base. You seem to fail to understand basic concepts, and think using "me and my guildies" while again ignoring the overwhelming percentage of the player base who is not you, or your guildies.

You alos rely on completely fabricated "potential" outcomes of this model that im apparently "insisting" on - while ignoring all potential benefits of such a system. It would be much easier to identify a players ability just by inspecting them, for example. The number of high score M+ players that have come to a pug raid and performed absolutely terribly is amazing to me - but at the end of the day, despite you idiotically claiming they are "close enough" (lol, cant get over that comment), they are entirely different forms of content.

Your argument boils down to this:

you want to be able to perform at the same lvl in all content, simply because you raid
you think it will clog everyone's bags up
...
.
that's it really.

[Jastall]

OK first off, no one is "insisting on" anything, i am suggesting an alternative to the current system. Every time you reply you use EXTREME exaggeration in every respect. Honestly, your argument is almost entirely formed from fallacies. Since when has M+ been "close enough" to mythic raiding? The two have almost nothing in common. And you keep only focusing on M+ and Mythic raiding, while ingoring the FACT that the majority of players don't do either.

You seem to have an extremely self centered view of how things should be, while ignoring the overwhelming majority of the player base. You seem to fail to understand basic concepts, and think using "me and my guildies" while again ignoring the overwhelming percentage of the player base who is not you, or your guildies.

You alos rely on completely fabricated "potential" outcomes of this model that im apparently "insisting" on - while ignoring all potential benefits of such a system. It would be much easier to identify a players ability just by inspecting them, for example. The number of high score M+ players that have come to a pug raid and performed absolutely terribly is amazing to me - but at the end of the day, despite you idiotically claiming they are "close enough" (lol, cant get over that comment), they are entirely different forms of content.

Your argument boils down to this:

you want to be able to perform at the same lvl in all content, simply because you raid
you think it will clog everyone's bags up
...
.
that's it really.

As if gear was ever a foolproof indicator of skill. Why do you believe RIO or more detailed pug requirements exist in the first place? Your only stated benefit is lackluster at best.

And yeah, I'm speaking for myself and the people I know, and not for "the overwhelming majority of the playerbase", unlike some. I'm quite comfortable with that, and if your only reaction to such a thing is to try and paint me as some unreasonable idiot, then have it your way but I see no reason to waste further time with you discussing a bad idea.

[DeusX]

You don't 'have' to unless you're pushing for world firsts, and people that push for world firsts are always going to push things to the limit. You don't have to optimize every aspect of play. It is perfectly viaable to raid without touching M+ and vice versa.

It's the exact opposite and people keep falling in this trap.
If you go world 1st, you don't need M+. You are going to clear the raid on Week 1, maybe 2. So 1-2 chests max.
How much M+ 440 gear do you think Method had when they progressed EP Mythic? Almost nothing, they played with previous tier gear.

The rest of the suckers of the mythic raiding "scene" are steadily farming the 440 gear to help them boost the HC gear raid, to be able to at least do a 5/8 or 6/8 before the next patch.

So I hope I am clear: the slower you progress in mythic, the more you need the M+ for gearing.

[Alkizon]

Katie N
I should have to collect 16 sets to play the game?

How about returning "2-active-builds system", which initially assumed 1 PvP build and 1 PvE build (as an option for especially lazy: raid vs lvling)

All because class design is in the @$$ and they decided to give everyone opportunity to change specs to left and right without brain, they couldn't balance stuff, they couldn't organize normal working system since "times", therefore you have too many freedoms in current design (as an options, not as choices), and that’s why your eyes goes round in different directions, you want everything and without any problems, this won't happen.

Offhand: return linear PvE progress (no M+ and multi-difficulties system in form in which it's now), return PvP/PvE rating characteristics (res/hit, etc., any automation&scaling goes to hell), rework system of classes and talents to digestible one (and not this nonsense which is now) and leave 2 active builds (it's your problems, how you will use them - heal/tank, dd/heal, quests/raid, PvP/PvE, that shouldn't concern devs). That's all. Now you have limitations, and need to make choice in connection with this, you have motivation for progress, and 2 ways to follow it, everything is simple and no idiotic all-forgiveness and permissiveness

Once upon a time, friend even laughed about new system just in this vein (see highlighted part):
- (17.03.2016) -

Problem isn't even in fact that it will be expensive:
- tl;dr - <url>
(some words in russian <url>)
Problem is that current talent system (and they are not in classic sense of talent, it's just perks) is generally stupid

things like this <1>, <2>+<3>+<4>, <5>, <6>, <7>, <8>, controversion <9> are aftermath part of your new perk system

System worked and was justified only if there were trees <url> and player could create something "hybrid"/universal/specific (<url> <url>) of a set of points that he had. But now (in new) we are faced with a system which simply doesn't have specializations (+ talents went full only specific), but only classes (there is no anything in common now between two specializations of class (it's not for gameplay, but only for set of spells)), but still there is no "talent-trees", there is only perks (which aren't clear for what we even get in terms of role-play <url> <url> <url>) Fee for "class" change in general shouldn't be charged because for the game it's forbidden to change it

Btw, talent - this is what you get from mother nature, and you have work for open (developing) it in a certain direction, and then develop it more, but ability - something that you can learn somewhere (also there wasn't any "unnecessary stats" before and even spirit and intellect give something for warriors <url>)

First post here.

[rohoz]

It's the exact opposite and people keep falling in this trap.
If you go world 1st, you don't need M+. You are going to clear the raid on Week 1, maybe 2. So 1-2 chests max.
How much M+ 440 gear do you think Method had when they progressed EP Mythic? Almost nothing, they played with previous tier gear.

The rest of the suckers of the mythic raiding "scene" are steadily farming the 440 gear to help them boost the HC gear raid, to be able to at least do a 5/8 or 6/8 before the next patch.

So I hope I am clear: the slower you progress in mythic, the more you need the M+ for gearing.

Mythic+ is the soft nerf to raid bosses. You get gear in M+ that you would've gotten from getting your shit pushed in on every boss past ashvane.
That's why a lot of mid/low tier mythic raid guilds can afford to extend their lockout almost indefinitely. I can't say whether or not getting guaranteed (almost) mythic gear every week is a good thing for everyone, but it's surely a decent thing for the mom+pops guilds that want to progress, in my opinion.

[kranur]

The solution is to have unique and desirable loot from each of M+, arenas, and raiding. If people want to do all 3 pillars of play to get their choice from absolutely every cool item in the game then let them. Don't make it a requirement to progress, but also don't make it useless for the people who want to explore the whole game in every way.

Somewhat agree. And we do have that for the most part. Mythic raiding offers unique mounts/titles, Rated PVP offers unique mounts/titles, the only one that was left out was the M+, which as of next patch will get it's own unique mounts/titles. This is a very good direction.
They all offer good gear but out of all of them Raiding offers the best/fastest gear acquisition and it arguably comes with the highest dedication requirement.

Now about gear, gear should be universal. Obviously certain pieces will be slightly better in certain conditions but that's just that. Making gear be a lot less powerful if used in a different content than it was obtained is just balls and has always been with the pvp vs raid gear.
That is of course if it's not absolutely required (i.e. you have to raid to do well in PVP or have to PVP to do well in raids).
The fact that certain groups of people (world top guilds) will require you to participate in each of the to get the best asap should be a non-issue, it's your choice to group with them, and attempting at world top ranks in either category of content comes with a cost.

[Fayenoor]

I agree with the OP. However, I think the pressure is the opposite direction these days. Unlike in Arena days when Shadowmourne and AP trinket ruined arenas, M+ is putting a LOT of pressure on Mythic raiding. I see a ton of players while running M+ who are like 2k+ RIOs, but barely 2-3M kills in or 8/8H. I have asked some of them and they all reply with that they are unwilling to push hard into Mythic Raiding (Ashvane the first wall) when they can grind M+ with friends, gear faster and have more fun. You can either grind 4 hours a raid night on Ashvane or better spend the time on multiple high keys. The second promises more rewards while the first can not even guarantee a kill and you have to deal with 19 other personalities. The deeper into the Mythic, the bigger the problem. At some point many players have realized that Mythic Raiding is just not worth it anymore.

High end CE raiding by the top guilds will still continue and I think eventually CE will become a niche of a selected few while the bulk of players just chain M+ for their enjoyment and do some Mythic Raid Bosses as time permits.

[Augusta138]

For me, the fix would be really simple:

Dungeon gear with an item level above baseline mythics can't be worn in raids.

Raid gear can't be worn at all in mythic+ dungeons.

PvE gear can't be worn at all in PvP and vice versa.

Bring back gear sets with different bonuses for all of these activities. Enable players to say "my endgame is pvp/mythic+/raiding" instead of having it all be complementary to each other.

How would one gear up for raiding then? We all go into the new raid naked?

Same goes for mythic+ if yoi dont own a set of gear for it you have to farm it first.

But how will this work out? This just isnt viable in anyway

[roahn the warlock]

Set bonuses seem to be the best fix for this. Have the bonuses only work in raids or whatever.

[Thelyron]

How would one gear up for raiding then? We all go into the new raid naked?

Same goes for mythic+ if yoi dont own a set of gear for it you have to farm it first.

But how will this work out? This just isnt viable in anyway

>Dungeon gear with an item level above baseline mythics can't be worn in raids.

Which means you can wear baseline mythic items in raids. You gear up through dungeons, step in to the raids, and then gear up in there. Same goes for mythic+.