Ion Hazzikostas to German Magazine: Sub Rogue Redesign!?

[javic09]

I’m so excited for the potential changes. I agree that reducing to one charge of Shadow Dance would allow them to tune Find Weakness up again and make Sub back into the burst focused class that it once was. Gouge and poisons coming back is just an added bonus.

I don’t mind the purple shadowy theme as long as we are able to be the kings of control and burst again.

I see no need to have Nightblade instead of just giving us Rupture back. Burst of Speed was a lazily designed ability in my mind, and I would hate to see it return.

I would also love if they could tune our AoE so that we could at least be a viable spec in all levels of PVE, but shine in single target.

Here’s to hoping that Blizzard doesn’t crush my dreams again!

[Verdugo]

People suggesting that any Rogue spec should be come a ranged spec have no respect for the history of this class and the people who have happily played their spec for years who don't want these kinds of changes.

Its the same crowd that was braying for melee hunter, look at that garbage now.

[shoegazing]

Its the same crowd that was braying for melee hunter, look at that garbage now.

People who don't main a class but played it a bit for one tier or expansion are usually the offenders.

Like they are a tourist who played a little bit of Rogue and they want to act like their opinion is just as meaningful and valuable as someone who played Rogue exclusively for 15 years.

Those people are the reason Subtlety got ruined in the first place. People played it during one patch when tuning was very favorable, next thing you know they are sending the devs feedback about the spec and trying to get it remade more to their liking. That is how we wound up with a ruined Subtlety spec in Legion in the first place.

[Coldkil]

People who don't main a class but played it a bit for one tier or expansion are usually the offenders.

Like they are a tourist who played a little bit of Rogue and they want to act like their opinion is just as meaningful and valuable as someone who played Rogue exclusively for 15 years.

Those people are the reason Subtlety got ruined in the first place. People played it during one patch when tuning was very favorable, next thing you know they are sending the devs feedback about the spec and trying to get it remade more to their liking. That is how we wound up with a ruined Subtlety spec in Legion in the first place.

I honestly like the "shadowy magic archetype". It is something actually different. However i fully agree that the implementation of it has been pretty much lackluster in many aspects.

I don't think the names or visual effects are very important when playstyle is flawed. I am not a supporter of the whole "BUT SUB IS PVP SPEC", but in the end, since rogues are a melee dps with all 3 specs being about that, i think it's just more efficient to have a dedicated ST/sustained damage spec (assa), an aoe/cleave one (outlaw) and a PvP one (sub).

The most important thing is to make rogues work well.

[shoegazing]

I honestly like the "shadowy magic archetype". It is something actually different. However i fully agree that the implementation of it has been pretty much lackluster in many aspects.

I have nothing against the concept in a vacuum. It's not my favorite but I wouldn't be upset with having it added as a new spec. It's the fact that they replaced the existing Subtlety spec without something that doesn't feel at all like a classic Subtlety Rogue that makes me furious.

I don't think the names or visual effects are very important when playstyle is flawed. I am not a supporter of the whole "BUT SUB IS PVP SPEC", but in the end, since rogues are a melee dps with all 3 specs being about that, i think it's just more efficient to have a dedicated ST/sustained damage spec (assa), an aoe/cleave one (outlaw) and a PvP one (sub).

My initial response when the Legion changes were announced (I mean, after the "oh god they have no idea at all what damage they are doing, they are going to ruin absolutely everything" which was entirely true) was that everything would be OK if they could just preserve the Subtlety playstyle. I viciously ridiculed the concept of ClassFantasy (the buzzword they were selling at the time) because of the consequences it had for mechanics. As time has passed though I've come to realize how much the CLASS fantasy (not SpecFantasy which is really what they meant when they said ClassFantasy) matters to me. I've played a Rogue since 2005. It's important to me that my character feels like a Rogue. I can make all kinds of technical arguments why Gouge and Poisons and Shiv and Slice and Dice were important abilities mechanically, but I've realized more and more that my character just doesn't feel at all like a Rogue without these buttons and the gameplay concepts they entail. I really think that you can't separate the fantasy and mechanics all that much.

About Subtlety as "the PvP spec" I am not opposed in a vacuum to any changes which would improve the PvE playstyle without affecting PvP. But you have to consider the audience of PvP Rogues who have strongly gravitated towards Subtlety for a decade or longer. It is truly one of the most iconic PvP specs in the history of WoW, right beside Frost Mage as either 1a or 1b when you ask many players about what is the prototypical PvP spec. We are talking about the spec that Neilyo played. The spec that Reckful played. The spec that Khuna played. The spec that Pikaboo played. There is a history here.

So it's not that I openly despise PvE. I despise PvE players who give ask for changes that damage the legendary PvP playstyle, and I despise PvE-first devs/designers who make changes without even understanding the impact they are having on PvP.

I think a lot of this terrible situation was created by simple ignorance. Obviously Blizzard devs aren't openly malicious towards PvP players. But they had a blind spot towards what Subtlety Rogue meant to PvP Rogues and the wider PvP community. That is something that is very, very difficult for me to forgive.

[Atraxxa]

I have nothing against the concept in a vacuum. It's not my favorite but I wouldn't be upset with having it added as a new spec. It's the fact that they replaced the existing Subtlety spec without something that doesn't feel at all like a classic Subtlety Rogue that makes me furious.



My initial response when the Legion changes were announced (I mean, after the "oh god they have no idea at all what damage they are doing, they are going to ruin absolutely everything" which was entirely true) was that everything would be OK if they could just preserve the Subtlety playstyle. I viciously ridiculed the concept of ClassFantasy (the buzzword they were selling at the time) because of the consequences it had for mechanics. As time has passed though I've come to realize how much the CLASS fantasy (not SpecFantasy which is really what they meant when they said ClassFantasy) matters to me. I've played a Rogue since 2005. It's important to me that my character feels like a Rogue. I can make all kinds of technical arguments why Gouge and Poisons and Shiv and Slice and Dice were important abilities mechanically, but I've realized more and more that my character just doesn't feel at all like a Rogue without these buttons and the gameplay concepts they entail. I really think that you can't separate the fantasy and mechanics all that much.

About Subtlety as "the PvP spec" I am not opposed in a vacuum to any changes which would improve the PvE playstyle without affecting PvP. But you have to consider the audience of PvP Rogues who have strongly gravitated towards Subtlety for a decade or longer. It is truly one of the most iconic PvP specs in the history of WoW, right beside Frost Mage as either 1a or 1b when you ask many players about what is the prototypical PvP spec. We are talking about the spec that Neilyo played. The spec that Reckful played. The spec that Khuna played. The spec that Pikaboo played. There is a history here.

So it's not that I openly despise PvE. I despise PvE players who give ask for changes that damage the legendary PvP playstyle, and I despise PvE-first devs/designers who make changes without even understanding the impact they are having on PvP.

I think a lot of this terrible situation was created by simple ignorance. Obviously Blizzard devs aren't openly malicious towards PvP players. But they had a blind spot towards what Subtlety Rogue meant to PvP Rogues and the wider PvP community. That is something that is very, very difficult for me to forgive.

Thing is this is a PVE - first game, always has been, always will be. Don't get me wrong, i agree with a lot of what you are saying but they never spun this as a pvp centric game from the get go like Guild Wars or some of the others out there.

[Kaver]

About Subtlety as "the PvP spec" I am not opposed in a vacuum to any changes which would improve the PvE playstyle without affecting PvP. But you have to consider the audience of PvP Rogues who have strongly gravitated towards Subtlety for a decade or longer.

But how big is that pvp audience? I know there's a lot of players who would LOVE to play Sub in PVE content, including myself. Sub was a popular spec in PVE in large parts of Legion and it would also be popular in BFA if it wasn't lacking so much behind Assassination and Outlaw.

I'm not saying that Sub is perfect right now or anything, but why does the PVE audience have to be so respectful of the PVP audience if it is much smaller?

[shoegazing]

Thing is this is a PVE - first game, always has been, always will be. Don't get me wrong, i agree with a lot of what you are saying but they never spun this as a pvp centric game from the get go like Guild Wars or some of the others out there.

Thing is this is a PvP first spec, always has been, always should be.

It's really that simple. When there are 3 Rogue specs, all melee dps, all leather, all agility based, it's easy to see there is plenty of room to keep the PvP first spec.

The variation is healthy and keeps the class appealing to the maximum number of players. There is more to gain from ensuring PvP players have 1 good option, than there is from giving PvE players a 3rd option when they already have 2 good options.

[Coldkil]

It's really that simple. When there are 3 Rogue specs, all melee dps, all leather, all agility based, it's easy to see there is plenty of room to keep the PvP first spec.

Easier to quote the shorter post

That's basically my point. Since given the history of the game i don't believe Blizzard can make a spec that works well in either of the two aspects and balancing won't impact both, i'd just simplify the design and make things with a clear purpose instead of trying to put everything in everything.

[Kaver]

Thing is this is a PvP first spec, always has been, always should be.

No it’s not! Subtlety has been an amazing spec in PVE content plenty of times throughout the history of WoW. There are much more players who want to play Sub in PVE than PVP. You are just incredibly loud.

There are no good reason why the PvP audience should be prioritized over the PvE audience. Of course the best thing would be if they could create a great spec for all content, but PVP players don’t have some special rights to Sub. Get over it dude.

[Sunderella]

People suggesting that any Rogue spec should be come a ranged spec have no respect for the history of this class and the people who have happily played their spec for years who don't want these kinds of changes.

This guy above gets it.

[shoegazing]

No it’s not! Subtlety has been an amazing spec in PVE content plenty of times throughout the history of WoW. There are much more players who want to play Sub in PVE than PVP. You are just incredibly loud.

There are no good reason why the PvP audience should be prioritized over the PvE audience. Of course the best thing would be if they could create a great spec for all content, but PVP players don’t have some special rights to Sub. Get over it dude.

You can point to isolated tiers where due to favorable tuning and late expansion scaling, Subtlety has performed fine in raids. This isn't because Subtlety was designed for PvE first, which it never was. It was purely a consequence of PvE players playing whatever does the best numbers.

Prior to Legion, Subtlety has never had a bad expansion for PvP. Perhaps you could argue early MoP was bad for the very brief time that Step and Prep were competing talents.

I'm not talking about tuning, I'm talking about the mechanical design.

Even in seasons where Combat or Assassination were objectively stronger in PvP, there were many rogues that would continue to play Subtlety instead for its superior playstyle.

Legion is the first time in the game's entire history that Subtlety didn't have a fun and iconic PvP playstyle.

Even the game director himself has admitted they screwed up badly. The quote linked in the OP of this very thread states that they need to take Subtlety back in the direction of the PvP Rogue archetype.

[Kill Off Zappy Boi Next]

Too many melee specs in this game. One of Mut or Sub should be ranged.

[Kaver]

You can point to isolated tiers where due to favorable tuning and late expansion scaling, Subtlety has performed fine in raids. This isn't because Subtlety was designed for PvE first, which it never was. It was purely a consequence of PvE players playing whatever does the best numbers.

Prior to Legion, Subtlety has never had a bad expansion for PvP. Perhaps you could argue early MoP was bad for the very brief time that Step and Prep were competing talents.

I'm not talking about tuning, I'm talking about the mechanical design.

Even in seasons where Combat or Assassination were objectively stronger in PvP, there were many rogues that would continue to play Subtlety instead for its superior playstyle.

Legion is the first time in the game's entire history that Subtlety didn't have a fun and iconic PvP playstyle.

Even the game director himself has admitted they screwed up badly. The quote linked in the OP of this very thread states that they need to take Subtlety back in the direction of the PvP Rogue archetype.

I'm also not talking about tuning.

The point I'm making is that there are A LOT of players who would love to play Subtlety in PvE content, and Blizzard cannot just ignore that.

Just because "you have mained Sub for 15 years, bla, bla..." doesn't mean that Blizzard should focus specially on your case.

If have a target group of 1000 players and 990 want a great Subtlety for PvE and 10 want want a great Subtlety for PvP, then Blizzard should of course prioritize what most people want. And they will.

The best case would of course be if everyone could get what they want, but don't think that Blizzard will prioritize PvP over PvE just because Ion said something to a German magazine. I'm all for going back to earlier additions of Sub, but they will prioritize PvE like they always do and like they should.

[shoegazing]

If have a target group of 1000 players and 990 want a great Subtlety for PvE and 10 want want a great Subtlety for PvP

Here is your face when you make up numbers like this:

Too many melee specs in this game. One of Mut or Sub should be ranged.

The above applies to you as well. Leave the Rogue feedback to people who are actually passionate about and invested in playing Rogue, kthxbye.

Infracted.

[ymirsson]

Here is your face when you make up numbers like this:





The above applies to you as well. Leave the Rogue feedback to people who are actually passionate about and invested in playing Rogue, kthxbye.

So your answer to people with different opinions amounts to posting clown faces?

You always were like a lone crusader and now your Holy See has arrived in the 21st century. Which means ridiculing itself with outdated beliefs and rigid, inflexible dogmata not compatible with reality.

[shoegazing]

So your answer to people with different opinions amounts to posting clown faces?

Do you have a convincing reason why Kaver's completely made up and totally unrealistic numbers should be worth anything at all in this conversation, or are you deserving of the clown face as well?

[ymirsson]

Do you have a convincing reason why Kaver's completely made up and totally unrealistic numbers should be worth anything at all in this conversation, or are you deserving of the clown face as well?

Do you have a convincing reason why your completely made up and totally unrealistic statements about Subtlety's "viability" or "pvp exclusivity" should be worth anything at all in this conversation, or are you deserving of the clown face as well?

[Lazuli]

Can backstab actually do more damage than an auto attack now? And can we get rid of the cancerous charge system on SD? Literally anything pre-legion for the fucking love of kek.

PS: Hop of of assassinations fucking cock Blizzard, outlaw and sub should be pvp viable too. It's 2019(20). We no longer just accept a single spec to be playable in our favorite content. Doesn't mean a spec can't be higher skill cap or well designed like sub was previously, pre-class fantasy AIDS.

Maybe global poisons can help in this regard as far as outlaw is concerned, but still needs some armor ignoring/piercing mechanic probably along with MS.. sub needs a complete redesign to its original incarnation.

[shoegazing]

Do you have a convincing reason why your completely made up and totally unrealistic statements about Subtlety's "viability" or "pvp exclusivity" should be worth anything at all in this conversation, or are you deserving of the clown face as well?

Again with the poor reading comprehension.

I haven't said that Subtlety should be "PvP exclusive."

What I have said is that Subtlety PvP, due to its history, due to being the spec that Neilyo played, that Reckful played, the spec made famous by Korean RPMs in Wrath, the spec of choice for Rogue PvP connoisseurs, the spec played in most famous and memorable Rogue PvP videos....

...and due to Rogue being a 3 spec class where all 3 specs fill the same role, and PvE Rogues having 2 other other traditionally good specs to choose from...

...then Subtlety PvP should not be sacrificed for PvE design, the way it was in Legion and BFA for the first time in history.

It's very simple to understand:

Before Legion, for over a decade: Subtlety is usually great in PvP

Since Legion: there isn't a single Rogue spec which is fun to play in PvP lol

Obviously this state of affairs is not going to be acceptable to PvP Rogues.

Nothing about this is at all made up, unlike the other posters ridiculous, laughable, and completely made up assertion that there are 99 Rogues that want to play Subtlety in PvE for every 1 Rogue who wants to play Subtlety in PvP. LOL!

- - - Updated - - -

Can backstab actually do more damage than an auto attack now? And can we get rid of the cancerous charge system on SD? Literally anything pre-legion for the fucking love of kek.

YUP, exactly. And the best way to accomplish this is via strong Find Weakness. A strong Find Weakness design perfectly encapsulates all of the above.

But really they could pick any pre-Legion patch at random and it would be a massive improvement over this brainless, hamfisted, incoherent, purple particle effects but no gameplay substance, Fisher-Price garbage!

Doesn't mean a spec can't be higher skill cap or well designed like sub was previously, pre-class fantasy AIDS.

Subtlety has always been that spec.

Therefore there is no universe in which it was fair to Subtlety players to turn the spec into something completely different, that serves an entirely different audience.

Restore greatness to Subtlety spec! The greatest spec that ever existed in WoW.