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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    1. If you think that only alliance houses biased posters then you have no idea what the word "hypocrisy" even means. Both factions have people who are biased beyond belief.

    2. Bringing real world laws is not the same as using a word in a language. When the convention can start including trees that heal people and birds that shoot lazers then youd have a leg to stand on, until then you just look dumb bringing that into a game. And if your argument is trying to pillar itself on "genocide cant be used! its a real world term!" then I guess we cant use english in the game at all, cuz you know thats a real world language.

    3. If you really want to complain perhaps you should turn about and aim your statements at blizzard about how the horde is set on a villainous cycle cuz of its leader instead of weeping that the alliance is bad too.
    1. never said its alliance only, but seems that its more prominent fo allies (i actualy play both sides so i meet a lot of ppl from both sides)
    2. no, term genocide can surely be used, my whole problem is that people seem to put rather arbitrary division what is and what no longer is genocide, which seems to be based on nothing but bias toward one faction, sure real world definition is not perfectly applied to azeroth, but its way better than someones subjective opinion...
    3. blizzard shitty writing aside, my issue is when someone claims that bombing military target by horde is atrocity but wiping civilians by alliance is perfectly fine and justifiable

  2. #162
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
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    she is boring. waaaay too powerful.
    humiliating other respectable and interesting characters without a scratch on her.

    on one hand the writers try to pass her off as this cunning scheming "eventually our saviour" type.
    while on the other, she acts like a super selfish villain with the temper of a spoiled brat.

    she was interesting up to a point in WoW's history.. but now... she is just boring,
    and the slap in the face of the reader is that she will become our hero and saviour in the end.
    all because of her boot-licking, hormone-overflowing, teen fanbase. sigh.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    What's the source for the Sunreavers being an ethnic group? That sounds rather absurd, to me they just seem like a pro-Kirin Tor political party.
    then open a dictionary or what and read what ethnic group is

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    then open a dictionary or what and read what ethnic group is
    1) First of all, mind your manners, because in internet debates it's usually courteous to provide a source when people ask you for one, since if you claim something then the burden of proof falls on you.

    2) That is not even a source. Tell me where the Sunreavers are described as anything more than a political faction. "Go read what an ethnic group is and connect the dots" is not a source.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    1) First of all, mind your manners, because in internet debates it's usually courteous to provide a source when people ask you for one, since if you claim something then the burden of proof falls on you.

    2) That is not even a source. Tell me where the Sunreavers are described as anything more than a political faction. "Go read what an ethnic group is and connect the dots" is not a source.
    YOU claim they are not ethnic group, so... where are they described as political party?

    but ill oblige your request:
    "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry or on similarities such as common language or dialect, history, society, culture or nation"
    so they check all those points as far as i know, nation is probably a bit stretch, they are mor of a part of belf nation, basicaly they are belf minority living in different "country"
    from gamepedia "The Sunreavers are a faction of blood elves who represented the Horde in Dalaran." and "A faction is a group of allies, either racial or ideological.",
    so i technicaly id say they are both, ethnic and political group

    btw, im not sure what difference it makes if they are ethnic/religious/political group, doesnt really change anything...

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    YOU claim they are not ethnic group, so... where are they described as political party?

    but ill oblige your request:
    "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry or on similarities such as common language or dialect, history, society, culture or nation"
    so they check all those points as far as i know, nation is probably a bit stretch, they are mor of a part of belf nation, basicaly they are belf minority living in different "country"
    from gamepedia "The Sunreavers are a faction of blood elves who represented the Horde in Dalaran." and "A faction is a group of allies, either racial or ideological.",
    so i technicaly id say they are both, ethnic and political group

    btw, im not sure what difference it makes if they are ethnic/religious/political group, doesnt really change anything...
    I didn't claim they were not an ethnic group, I asked you where it was said they were because THE IMPRESSION I GOT is that they were more of a political party.

    That definition is so vague and generic that it's almost embarassing. Following that logic the Defias Brotherhood or the Uncrowned are also an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the entire basis of your argument that Jaina committed genocide at the Purge of Dalaran lies on the Sunreavers supposedly being an ethnicity.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I didn't claim they were not an ethnic group, I asked you where it was said they were because THE IMPRESSION I GOT is that they were more of a political party.

    That definition is so vague and generic that it's almost embarassing. Following that logic the Defias Brotherhood or the Uncrowned are also an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the entire basis of your argument that Jaina committed genocide at the Purge of Dalaran lies on the Sunreavers supposedly being an ethnicity.
    I remember that they first complained that it was just one Sunreaver that was a Garrosh spy the first time with Theramore, then it was two Sunreavers with the Divine Bell, then what do you know there were multiple Sunreavers according to the Save Baine Questline not to mention Aethas admitting betraying the Kirin Tor when he came back begging on his knees to be reinstated back. That logic breaks balls literally. How dare Jaina arrest the Sunreavers for giving a WMD to a crazy lunatic. How dare she use force to the ones that draw swords.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I didn't claim they were not an ethnic group, I asked you where it was said they were because THE IMPRESSION I GOT is that they were more of a political party.

    That definition is so vague and generic that it's almost embarassing. Following that logic the Defias Brotherhood or the Uncrowned are also an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the entire basis of your argument that Jaina committed genocide at the Purge of Dalaran lies on the Sunreavers supposedly being an ethnicity.
    yeah, uncrowned share all that, except genalogy or ancestry, they are not even single race, so no common language, history, society (they dont live together they only have common base of operation) culture or nation (as said before they are not even all the same race)
    soo ... what do uncrowned share? they are rogues working together, thats all...
    defias brotherhood too, multiracial, multicultural, they as much as uncrowned are organisation, and dont really share much other than being criminals...
    if you dont see that blindingly obvious difference im afrraid i cant help you

    btw genocide is: "genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" and they are the same race (and probably religion) so even if they wouldnt be ethnic group, it changes nothing...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    I remember that they first complained that it was just one Sunreaver that was a Garrosh spy the first time with Theramore, then it was two Sunreavers with the Divine Bell, then what do you know there were multiple Sunreavers according to the Save Baine Questline not to mention Aethas admitting betraying the Kirin Tor when he came back begging on his knees to be reinstated back. That logic breaks balls literally. How dare Jaina arrest the Sunreavers for giving a WMD to a crazy lunatic. How dare she use force to the ones that draw swords.
    and those responsible and perhaps even aetheas deserved punishment, but what did those vendors do other than protecting their own lives agains someone holding no authority over them (SI7 and silver covenant soldiers)?
    if Jaina arrested or even killed guilty nobody would give a ffuck, attacking innocent IS problem, if you dont see it you should get checked if you arent a sociopath or psychopath...
    "How dare she use force to the ones that draw swords" yeah, she and her soldiers killed people who after being attacked DEFEND themselves, why would they do that rather than lay on ground and die, i wonder...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2019-12-13 at 02:55 PM.

  9. #169
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    1. never said its alliance only, but seems that its more prominent fo allies (i actualy play both sides so i meet a lot of ppl from both sides)
    2. no, term genocide can surely be used, my whole problem is that people seem to put rather arbitrary division what is and what no longer is genocide, which seems to be based on nothing but bias toward one faction, sure real world definition is not perfectly applied to azeroth, but its way better than someones subjective opinion...
    3. blizzard shitty writing aside, my issue is when someone claims that bombing military target by horde is atrocity but wiping civilians by alliance is perfectly fine and justifiable
    the whining is from both sides but thankfully it is due to a vocal minority (you will notice that it is the same people making sameish threads). You say its prominent for allies. Need I remind you that the earliest speculation was that Teldrassil was an inside job by the night elves themselves. Or how people keep weeping about taurajo but completely forgetting stonetalon, southshore, astrannar. People on forums will always whine, basing your objectives from how much or how less they whine will only make you like them. Hell ive even read posts on this forum about people crying that the orcs were put in internment camps after their blaze through the eastern kingdoms. Like wth lol, so what else should the alliance have done? hung them? these guys went through the whole continent, burnt stormwind down, waged war on the other human kingdom after they had blown up their own planet.

    The game story is all that matters. If blizzard sets it as the horde warchief is a war mongering lunatic then no amount of essay writing here will change that. It might look like alliance complaining but honestly its because the story is skewed so bad towards making the horde look like villans or idiots that automatically one wants to point at something else, ANYTHING else to make themselves not look so bad. We are now about to reach a FOURTH expansion that has had a horde leader cause shit. That is nearly 50% of the game story where a faction leader has caused shit. Even if it was split 25% alliance being evil and 25% horde being evil, with 50% some titan or world ending menace it would be perfectly fine. But unfortunately the only way they have chosen to give the horde a story is by making them look like "me want your wood, you no give wood? thats offensive, me kill you for offense and take wood".

    If you take a look at the alliance most people COMPLETELY forget
    1. Archbishop Benedictus was the Twlight Father! This guy was a student of Faol and the center point of much of Stormwind religion.
    2. The alliance general who attacked Taurajo was sabotaged and setup of assassination by human intelligence because he was honorable to the other faction
    3. Alliance fired upon horde ships in Stormhiem (And hilariously got absolutely decimated)
    4. The orcs take alot of blame for the crap they stirred up in the past, yet all the shit the highborne did seems to swept under the rug.

    The problem is magnitude.
    Jaina COULD have flooded org. Sylvanas DID burn teldrassil.
    Taurajo was attacked, civilians allowed to escape but got killed by wildlife. Theramore was bombed, the civilians escaped and got taken by orcs to torture.
    Genn did attack Sylvanas, but have you seen their history? Woman invaded his kingdom, killed his only son AND plagued his lands. What the hell would you do? The orcs justify their fight by saying the night elves wont give them wood, but i guess Genn isnt allowed revenge because he was ousted from his kindgom, his family killed and people misplaced?

    The skewed magnitude has left no room for pointing fingers at the other faction. Because at the end of it all Sylvanas lead the horde on making it think it was fighting for survival while it was just so she could feed souls to a hungering maw and gain power. So at best the horde is evil and self hating (because that maw doesnt differentiate based on alliance or horde death) or worse they so stupid this is the second time they were lead on by a leader into oblivion. Take your pick.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #170
    I couldn't have said it better but Minikin you shouldn't have said that. Now the vocal minority will hunt you down. It wont be long.

  11. #171
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    So, Anduin, the person who got massive amounts of people killed and has barely done anything first hand is a Mary Sue? Do you even know what a Mary Sue is? You all need to stop whining and making shit up because you dislike a character just being good and true without any outside morally grey shit.
    Tell me with a straight face that this doesn't fit the Golden Boi like a glove.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    I couldn't have said it better but Minikin you shouldn't have said that. Now the vocal minority will hunt you down. It wont be long.
    Source about it being a minority pls - and about you being in a majority ofc.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    the whining is from both sides but thankfully it is due to a vocal minority (you will notice that it is the same people making sameish threads). You say its prominent for allies. Need I remind you that the earliest speculation was that Teldrassil was an inside job by the night elves themselves. Or how people keep weeping about taurajo but completely forgetting stonetalon, southshore, astrannar. People on forums will always whine, basing your objectives from how much or how less they whine will only make you like them. Hell ive even read posts on this forum about people crying that the orcs were put in internment camps after their blaze through the eastern kingdoms. Like wth lol, so what else should the alliance have done? hung them? these guys went through the whole continent, burnt stormwind down, waged war on the other human kingdom after they had blown up their own planet.

    The game story is all that matters. If blizzard sets it as the horde warchief is a war mongering lunatic then no amount of essay writing here will change that. It might look like alliance complaining but honestly its because the story is skewed so bad towards making the horde look like villans or idiots that automatically one wants to point at something else, ANYTHING else to make themselves not look so bad. We are now about to reach a FOURTH expansion that has had a horde leader cause shit. That is nearly 50% of the game story where a faction leader has caused shit. Even if it was split 25% alliance being evil and 25% horde being evil, with 50% some titan or world ending menace it would be perfectly fine. But unfortunately the only way they have chosen to give the horde a story is by making them look like "me want your wood, you no give wood? thats offensive, me kill you for offense and take wood".

    If you take a look at the alliance most people COMPLETELY forget
    1. Archbishop Benedictus was the Twlight Father! This guy was a student of Faol and the center point of much of Stormwind religion.
    2. The alliance general who attacked Taurajo was sabotaged and setup of assassination by human intelligence because he was honorable to the other faction
    3. Alliance fired upon horde ships in Stormhiem (And hilariously got absolutely decimated)
    4. The orcs take alot of blame for the crap they stirred up in the past, yet all the shit the highborne did seems to swept under the rug.

    The problem is magnitude.
    Jaina COULD have flooded org. Sylvanas DID burn teldrassil.
    Taurajo was attacked, civilians allowed to escape but got killed by wildlife. Theramore was bombed, the civilians escaped and got taken by orcs to torture.
    Genn did attack Sylvanas, but have you seen their history? Woman invaded his kingdom, killed his only son AND plagued his lands. What the hell would you do? The orcs justify their fight by saying the night elves wont give them wood, but i guess Genn isnt allowed revenge because he was ousted from his kindgom, his family killed and people misplaced?

    The skewed magnitude has left no room for pointing fingers at the other faction. Because at the end of it all Sylvanas lead the horde on making it think it was fighting for survival while it was just so she could feed souls to a hungering maw and gain power. So at best the horde is evil and self hating (because that maw doesnt differentiate based on alliance or horde death) or worse they so stupid this is the second time they were lead on by a leader into oblivion. Take your pick.
    fair points, and well reasoned arguments, i agree mostly
    and i never had issues with people admiting there was shit happening on both sides, i only hate passionately people who kinda ignore half of shit that happened (be it on any side)

    as for the horde being manipulated by leader into shitty moves, that too is not horde only, Garithos, Arthas, Kelthuzad, Jaina, Medivh, all basicaly alliance leaders (or at least important figures) leading to incredible death count... technicaly even Varian (war that ended with Garrosh trial was declared by him)...

    the more i think about it, the general population of azeroth, both horde and alliance seems to be either incredibly stupid or willing to commit horrible crimes just bcs of racial hatred coming mostly from the past or both

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yeah, uncrowned share all that, except genalogy or ancestry, they are not even single race, so no common language, history, society (they dont live together they only have common base of operation) culture or nation (as said before they are not even all the same race)
    soo ... what do uncrowned share? they are rogues working together, thats all...
    defias brotherhood too, multiracial, multicultural, they as much as uncrowned are organisation, and dont really share much other than being criminals...
    if you dont see that blindingly obvious difference im afrraid i cant help you

    btw genocide is: "genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" and they are the same race (and probably religion) so even if they wouldnt be ethnic group, it changes nothing...

    - - - Updated - - -



    and those responsible and perhaps even aetheas deserved punishment, but what did those vendors do other than protecting their own lives agains someone holding no authority over them (SI7 and silver covenant soldiers)?
    if Jaina arrested or even killed guilty nobody would give a ffuck, attacking innocent IS problem, if you dont see it you should get checked if you arent a sociopath or psychopath...
    "How dare she use force to the ones that draw swords" yeah, she and her soldiers killed people who after being attacked DEFEND themselves, why would they do that rather than lay on ground and die, i wonder...
    It's not said anywhere in that definition you linked that they need to have all of the above. They share a history, according to that generic and vague definition that's enough to form an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the Sunreavers are most certainly not a national, racial, or religious group.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  14. #174
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    the more i think about it, the general population of azeroth, both horde and alliance seems to be either incredibly stupid or willing to commit horrible crimes just bcs of racial hatred coming mostly from the past or both
    Well, that has been Warcraft's leitmotiv since the very beginning. The only problem is when the narrative starts whitewashing one of the sides, turning the thing into a bland, utterly boring Good-vs-Evil clone #603298672075 - something that WC3 had carefully avoided, and I think it greatly contributed to WoW's solid beginnings.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Tell me with a straight face that this doesn't fit the Golden Boi like a glove.



    Source about it being a minority pls - and about you being in a majority ofc.
    Polls from every single forum the moment the Horde changed from Thralls to an abomination with the crushing majority being against playing the villain.

  16. #176
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    It's not said anywhere in that definition you linked that they need to have all of the above. They share a history, according to that generic and vague definition that's enough to form an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the Sunreavers are most certainly not a national, racial, or religious group.
    The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant are both purely political groups, created along political ideologies (Horde vs. Alliance) in the context of Dalaran's social hierarchy.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Nice joke.



    Even bigger one.
    obvious troll huh? gj for getting attention.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-12-14 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant are both purely political groups, created along political ideologies (Horde vs. Alliance) in the context of Dalaran's social hierarchy.
    Agreed.

    /10chars
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    It's not said anywhere in that definition you linked that they need to have all of the above. They share a history, according to that generic and vague definition that's enough to form an ethnic group.

    And yes, it changes a lot, because the Sunreavers are most certainly not a national, racial, or religious group.
    "history" doesnt mean past few years ffs, but decades, centuries even, neither of the two organisations you mentioned have that, sunreavers do...

    they are all belfs (racial group) national i guess is a bit of stretch, and religious we dont really know...
    but ethnic and racial are both clear, unless you actively TRY to disprove it by any means necessary (even twisting everything or giving weird and bad examples)

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    Do you realize how sexist and misogynist this is when you guys say this? Rofl.
    It's not. Because they didn't establish this statement based on her gender. So get off your soapbox.

    You are also making a lot of personal assumptions about the poster when you make that kind of statement.
    Last edited by Oakshana; 2019-12-13 at 03:23 PM.

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