[UK] General Election 2019

[Beazy]

And I fully support them taking matters into their own hands to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
But burning down the offices of the BBC, etc, is frowned upon in British society..

Kiddo, your dick is too limp to trow a molatov at the BBC offices. You commies are so bad at sounding tough.
You really need a better PR dept comrade.

[arandomuser]

Boris is still farther left than most US democrats, his policies you could run as a a center left candidate and be acceptable, in fact im kind of glad he won because the fact that hes the center and has full control of the conservative party means the actual identitarian/ethnonationalist wing of conservatism is dead in britain, no more ukip and brexit creating alternative narratives, also his immigration policy while further right than EU standards is still to the left of obamas administration. I think people get caught up in sound bites like "britains trump!" rather than actual governance/policy. oh and corbyn was a loony toon, and in fact i compare him more to trump because corbyn was anti nato- very weak on russia, and when he lost alot of his supporters are now shouting "fake news"

[DarkAmbient]

We all know the reason why Labour lost.
And I fully support them taking matters into their own hands to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
But burning down the offices of the BBC, etc, is frowned upon in British society.

Do you actually believe this kind of thing or are you satirising the mindset of those Corbynites who are responsible for Labour's enormous defeat?

[[Apok]]

You realize that this part isn't a real argument, right? Focusing on Brexit voters as people and not their arguments is ad hominem and should be avoided.

Coming from an area that voted heavily in favour of leave, i can tell you that the ajority of people when asked about leave simply cannot come up with a credible argument as to why they vote leave other than parroting misinformation, outright lies or some kid of racist/xenophobic personal opinion.

Their arguments are what i judge people by, if someone actually believes corbyn is a terrorist sympathise, marxist, anti-semite it really does point towards them being ignorant or thick, as that is nothing more than smear.

Also, there was dodgy shit happening on both sides of the referendum campaign, I won't fight you on that. But, regardless, if we are to give the demos the credit I believe they deserve, the outcome of that referendum must be respected.

Yes there was dodgy shit on both sides, which is why i said the campaign itself, also how can you honour an advisory on how the government should proceed if the information offered to the electorate to form a vote isn't truthful and accurate. How if the public at large are supposed to rely on the information given by these campaigns in order to inform their decision to vote can they make an informed vote if the information is inaccurate or riddled with mistruths.

Actual democracy allows for us to say wait hang on a moment you weren't given accurate information we can't move ahead with this because your decision isn't neccessisarily informed. It's less about people changing their minds and peopel havign voted because they were misled. if you took a vote amongst a group of people to eat at a restaurant being told that you would be able to eat there as they cater to people with allergies which you suffer. would you be happy to sit down and eat at said restaurant as a group because the majority voted if it turned out that the allergen-catering information was infact a lie?

I doubt and whilst borderig on reductio ad absurdum, it is nonetheless a valid comparison.

[Kronik85]

2. This is true. I think Boris' deal isn't great, to be honest. But it is the only iteration of Brexit that Leavers credibly have left and I believe it is paramount that the largest democratic mandate in British history be respected. A small part of me is being overly hopeful and wishing Boris would use his strong mandate now to put "No Deal" back on the table to pressure for something better from the EU, but I think he like so many others is bored of the whole thing now and just want to put it behind them. Far from ideal, but again, the best that can be hoped for unfortunately. I'm painfully aware he was a pretty non-committal Leaver from the beginning, but I think he's shrewd enough to realise that if he doesn't get us out now, he and the Conservative party are finished.

You understand the last time BoJo put No Deal on the table all he did was concede NI to the EU so that they would change some words in the non binding PD right? But sure, I can't wait to see what else he can give away to the EU for virtually nothing.

3. I'm happy that we can perhaps finally get out of the way if the rest of the Union is happy with movements towards further federalisation. Just because Britain voted to leave the EU, doesn't mean that the two bodies must suddenly become enemies. But, I wouldn't be so sure that every member state will be pulled further into the project, I imagine that nations like Italy, Denmark and Greece will be watching what happens to the UK in the next few years very carefully.

Didn't they do that already and decide that leaving the EU was a terrible idea then dropped it as a talking point?

Not liking Brexit doesn't inherently make you anti-democratic. However, I would argue that actively trying to thwart the largest democratic mandate in our nation's history does make you an anti-democrat.

Representative Democracy whereby you vote someone in who's job it is to be better informed than you and then make decisions on your behalf is anti democratic. Got it! Lets rule by referenda instead, it's going so well so far.

Also, there was dodgy shit happening on both sides of the referendum campaign, I won't fight you on that. But, regardless, if we are to give the demos the credit I believe they deserve, the outcome of that referendum must be respected.

Labour's position was to honour the referendum by giving you a vote on the actual deal we would be getting. Surely that's a more logical position than mindlessly implementing a result with absolutely no clue what it holds for the future of the country. I'm waiting for you to ask me about the demos btw, I work with them shoulder to shoulder every day, let me enlighten you as to the respect you should have for their views on this election and what they think will happen once they Brexit. I have a feeling that "credit" you think you owe them might evaporate.

[rogueMatthias]

Boris is still farther left than most US democrats, his policies you could run as a a center left candidate and be acceptable, in fact im kind of glad he won because the fact that hes the center and has full control of the conservative party means the actual identitarian/ethnonationalist wing of conservatism is dead in britain, no more ukip and brexit creating alternative narratives, also his immigration policy while further right than EU standards is still to the left of obamas administration. I think people get caught up in sound bites like "britains trump!" rather than actual governance/policy.

Oh 100%. I've been saying this everywhere for a while but it's been falling on deaf ears amongst the propaganda. The only things he has in common with Trump are the populism, mad hair and habit of putting his foot in his mouth. Boris has always been more moderate leaning than the other Tories, and had a certain amount of cross-party appeal before Brexit. That's how he became Mayor of London after all.

The left-wing press (and entire facebook-twitter bubble) have been making him out to be a racist homophobic far-right fascist figure based on 10-20 year quotes, mostly out of context. Even his "Islamophobia", If the worst he's done is say that people in burqas look like postboxes... in an article defending peoples right to wear burqas.. that doesn't exactly make him Hitler.

here's another example -
If you look at the "tank-top wearing bum-boys" comment - Yes it was pretty homophobic a comment and he made some other offensive comments at the time (and since). It's been held up all election about how he's anti-LGBTQ and how that's part of his far-right persona..

...but it was literally 20 years ago. Since then he defied the Conservative whip to abolish Section 28, which banned the “promotion” of homosexuality in schools, voted to permit civil partnerships for same-sex couples. He was the highest-ranking Conservative to come out in support of marriage equality. As mayor of London, he gave funding to Gay Pride and led the parade on several occasions. Reversing a long-standing policy, he permitted embassies to fly rainbow flags & as foreign secretary met with Russian LGBTQ activists to bring attention to their work.

Despite being a pretty obviously classist Torie, he's not the worst we could have had. With the kind of majority where he doesn't have to pander to anybody else, or any other parties, I think he'll keep the party a lot more on centre.

[Theodarzna]

As some one who would probably classify as a neo-liberal globalist.

I respect @Theodarzna rather sucisantly and well written points over the last few pages.

Though I disagree an some points (surprisingly I agree on a more than I'd dare to admit, but I don't see that as neo-liberalism is the problem, more, neo-liberalism has problems it needs to fix internally)

I think they have raised very important points regarding the state of the current left wing, it's troubles with elections, the state of the UK working class. Its a shame there just posting here in a no name forum and not leading the discussion instead of people like Owen Jones and nigal farrage.

Were really lacking at least some one who's willing to deep dive into the issues rather than just making sound bites and skimming over the political surface.

Careful, agreeing with me makes you enemies here quick. :3

As for Neo-Liberalism? well, obviously I consider it abhorrent and reject Liberalism. But ultimately my position here and on this issue is that the people claiming to be Lefties are just Liberals who cosplay as Socialists to feel like they are special.

Soon these same people will be nursing themselves with new promises that are the same as the old promises. They'll say "We need to center the working class in a just transition to movementism. The streets, the movement, the new deal, take it or leave it, basically an ultimatum, but voices, we'll elevate them, yours, your spokespeople, the socialism, the vibe, the leftism, the green new deal, Greta?!" followed shortly by my previously stated "We counted on the north and the heartlands which have been devastated and we haven't spoken to, and that's a problem. But also, I can't feel bad because those fuckers aren't woke to climate change, racism, and homophobia. So whatever, from now on it's the graduates for ourselves." Those are the only two reactions we will get, jargon filled nonsense or a more honest but nakedly brutal hatred from an aspirant ruling class that is devastated by the heathens rejection of them.

[JohnBrown1917]

Will be fun to see Uk labour move back to the right again.

[Kallisto]

Boris: We want to be nice to those that voted to remain and against me.

Well that's easy. Norway deal or you're just a lying piece of shit who should just walk up to the queen and impale yourself on a sword

You want to heal the country go with the lightest of brexit deals or fuck off

[Theodarzna]

If the tories had shown the working class dignity and respect i might agree, however their repeated comments on the fact that poor people are poor because they arent intelligent enough to do better, and that the bottom 20% of society income wise produces chavs, losers and burglars is anything but showing them respect and dignity.

Stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence isn't even controversial; heck a dejected Labour voter previously in this thread said as much, that these people don't produce anything except thugs. So this is a cross party vision of these people. Borris did have the good sense to not tell them they were too stupid to know what they were voting for; and he didn't brow beat them with Wokesterism and deride them as inferior which several allegedly "Labour" voters did in this thread for example and of which there is endless media footage of pro-Labour personalities doing just that.

[[Apok]]

Stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence isn't even controversial; heck a dejected Labour voter previously in this thread said as much, that these people don't produce anything except thugs. So this is a cross party vision of these people. Borris did have the good sense to not tell them they were too stupid to know what they were voting for; and he didn't brow beat them with Wokesterism and deride them as inferior which several allegedly "Labour" voters did in this thread for example and of which there is endless media footage of pro-Labour personalities doing just that.

Theres a difference between stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence, and caliming that they are the main producers of crime and less than savoury practices, hell he even stated that single mothers are raising a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.
Whilst also framing working class men as “likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

Yes it may be an old quote, but it still shows his stance on the working class.

[Theodarzna]

Theres a difference between stating that poorer classes of people have crime and violence, and caliming that they are the main producers of crime and less than savoury practices, hell he even stated that single mothers are raising a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children.
Whilst also framing working class men as “likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless”.

Yes it may be an old quote, but it still shows his stance on the working class.

Labour party voices engaged in a deliberate rhetoric of casting as lumpen reactionary fascists the majority of people who voted to leave and demanded their votes be ignored can't exactly claim they weren't engaged in the same behaviour but worse. I mean what is worse, to say the poorer classes are crime riddled or even generate a lot of crime (Something the galaxy brained Blairites agree with, and everyone also says is basically true but for different reasons), or castigating them as racist Nazi demons who are too impossibly stupid and unreformed evil fascists to know their own hearts and must be managed by a patrician class of credentialed elites who know better and have superior morality thanks to their faith in Wokeness? I'd personally rather be written off as a welfare queen who pops out kids to cheat the state out of more benefits, than be told I'm an evil unreformed super racist ultra nazi infected with mega fascism and must be managed by credentialed cunts. Petty criminality is not really bad, I'm okay with being cast as a thief, I'd rather be considered a crook than literally evil and incapable of self-government and unworthy of political representation and political power.

Labour, just like the Democrats here in the United States, have become for the most part parties for managers, pronoun socialists, and woke bank employees. If you can't see this by now I don't know what to tell you. Oh, and I guess ethno-narcissists who hope to get the spoils of victory or at least secure in the knowledge that the party will put the boot to the neck of the other.

Also: Don't get prissy, this does describe literally you:

Because there are many, many people did vote based upon misinformation, not beng informed , being outright racist or xeno-phobis and well being plainly thick ad not understanding what they were voting for beyond "leave the eu" or how such a thing would affect us.

This is your own rhetoric.

[igualitarist]

88% of Tory political adverts in this election were lies. Their winning with the truth is statistically very unlikely.

And thats the flaw, maybe the 12% of truths alone may be enough to ensure a win. Maybe this 12% are about issues that concerns UK people the most.
Thats why no one can say for sure he won due to lies. Also, politicians lie to win since politics is a thing.

[DarkAmbient]

Will be fun to see Uk labour move back to the right again.

I think you mean back to the centre left.

[NED funded]

I think you mean back to the centre left.

Will they turn center left?? I checked highlights on Corbyn's speech and he doesnt really take the blame and apparently will probably groom his successor.

[JohnBrown1917]

I think you mean back to the centre left.

Yeah, as left as Blair was. Very left.

[Mayhem]

Thats why no one can say for sure he won due to lies. Also, politicians lie to win since politics is a thing.

But why are we fine with that?

[Jessicka]

Will they turn center left?? I checked highlights on Corbyn's speech and he doesnt really take the blame and apparently will probably groom his successor.

Do any of you seriously believe whoever next leads Labour won’t be subject to the same continuous and perpetual constant personal attacks and character assassinations that Corbyn, Milliband and Brown were subjected to?

[[Apok]]

This is your own rhetoric.

Depends, it's an evidence based opinion from living in a disadvantaged area, where having engaged a fair sample size over the past several years is certainly the norm.

Whether its voting based upon the misinformation, or just not understanding what they are voting for people still wish to cling on to a victory simply because "they won" even if it were to destroy them in the future.

[Theodarzna]

Depends, it's an evidence based opinion from living in a disadvantaged area, where having engaged a fair sample size over the past several years is certainly the norm.

Whether its voting based upon the misinformation, or just not understanding what they are voting for people still wish to cling on to a victory simply because "they won" even if it were to destroy them in the future.

I hate to say it, but you didn't learn a single thing and didn't even likely read what I posted. See, this is how deep you've put yourself. You cannot even broker the possibility of being the problem.