[UK] General Election 2019

[Spectral]

Yea....you shouldn't of bothered. The wokeness of JC has not been an issue for anyone other than Americans projecting their own politics into our election.

That could be true, I'm certainly not there. That doesn't seem to have stopped Europeans from developing strong intuitions about what ails the United States though. My suspicion is that blue collar Brits probably don't like that kind of shit much though.

[Kronik85]

That could be true, I'm certainly not there. That doesn't seem to have stopped Europeans from developing strong intuitions about what ails the United States though. My suspicion is that blue collar Brits probably don't like that kind of shit much though.

I can not state any more plainly that "wokeness" is not a UK issue. The nervousness about JC on the doorsteps comes from:
-JEREMY CORBYN WILL RUIN THE ECONOMY!!!!!!
-Weak on defence (had the gall to say he wouldn't like to nuke another country)
-Failing to show leadership on any issue
-A very muddled journey to eventually agreeing to a second ref and essentially trying to ride 2 horses then inevitably losing both

British voters however do not care that he might actually know the correct usage of "Xer" however.

[Monster Hunter]

I don't want to project onto American politics or vice versa too much, but this strikes me as a very similar dynamic to what we see in rural American areas. Rural, working class Americans have developed a massive gap in worldview with our Democrats and when they express that, they're basically told "you're just too stupid to understand what's good for you". Quite a few of these people are from lineages of union Democrats, they're not viscerally opposed to anti-corporate messaging, but they're not going to respond well to shit like Corbyn dutifully reciting his pronouns.

It's a people the fundementaly feel left behind and forgotten by globalisation and a metropolitan elite society, many of them from heavy industry and mining stock or decent who talk stright and feel slighted by there nations establishment for esentialy milking them for century's for the Labour only to up sticks and leave them I ly with unfulffiling retail and shit jobs left in there areas when some where else will do that labour for cheaper.

They hae lost trust in the left wing. And Alot of leftwingers don't seem to grasp that or know how to handle that change, there so used to those areas being loyal and ignorable, and them selves always been seen as trustworthy they can't seem to understand that there now seen as the bad guys by these areas just as much as the likes of thatcher and ragan were in the 80s

The left has become like bad parents trying to force a child to take its medicine. This thread is a prime example.

Jessicka is from a metropolitan city in the red wall that's stayed red, I'm in that same red wall but I'm from an old mill town that's switched blue, a place thats been impoverished for over 50 years loyally voting Labour for a 100, and it angers them deeply we haven't towed the line.

[DarkAmbient]

Do any of you seriously believe whoever next leads Labour won’t be subject to the same continuous and perpetual constant personal attacks and character assassinations that Corbyn, Milliband and Brown were subjected to?

Labour certainly aren't going to win if they keep blaming the media instead of addressing their issues, i.e. electing awful leaders with 0 public appeal.

- - - Updated - - -

Will they turn center left?? I checked highlights on Corbyn's speech and he doesnt really take the blame and apparently will probably groom his successor.

If Labour choose Corbyn Mk2 they are absolutely fucked and will remain in opposition for the foreseeable future, possibly never becoming a party of government again.

[Monster Hunter]

I can not state any more plainly that "wokeness" is not a UK issue. The nervousness about JC on the doorsteps comes from:
-JEREMY CORBYN WILL RUIN THE ECONOMY!!!!!!
-Weak on defence (had the gall to say he wouldn't like to nuke another country)
-Failing to show leadership on any issue
-A very muddled journey to eventually agreeing to a second ref and essentially trying to ride 2 horses then inevitably losing both

British voters however do not care that he might actually know the correct usage of "Xer" however.

I don't think the zee zim zur zibbedy soo dah shambam thing is even a thing here in the UK.

I have never heard of any one irl say anything about it that isn't a joke, I only have 2 trans freinds so it's not a wide sample but even they think non binary is some Internet fad.

If some one wants to be called something, yea w/e it's no great issue for me, but I've never encountered it.

- - - Updated - - -

Labour certainly aren't going to win if they keep blaming the media instead of addressing their issues, i.e. electing awful leaders with 0 public appeal.

- - - Updated - - -



If Labour choose Corbyn Mk2 they are absolutely fucked and will remain in opposition for the foreseeable future, possibly never becoming a party of government again.

The danger of politicians that follow ism's like religions is that they place the ism befor party and country. I full expect corby won't leave the leadership till he's sure the party will stick to its socialist path no matter how unelectable it currently is in the UK.

Corbyn would rather see labour in perpetual opposition but holding to the socialist line than see labour bury its socialism again like it did under Blair even if it ment getting elected and actualy being able to reverse austerity.

- - - Updated - - -

'Everyone hates Corbyn' seems to be the narrative. Once again though, not my party, mine's Green, but I've still managed several times in this thread to be objective enough to post academic reports that look at the balance and reporting by the media.

I recall though, Brown "made a deal with Blair to be PM, is boring, so shouldn't be PM". "Chaos with Ed Miliband who can't eat a bacon sandwich, fucked over his brother".

So you missed "hug a hoodie" Cameron and the litteraly comparisons of May with a robot? The maybot.

What you have is a few cognative bias not a media bias.

[DarkAmbient]

The danger of politicians that follow ism's like religions is that they place the ism befor party and country. I full expect corby won't leave the leadership till he's sure the party will stick to its socialist path no matter how unelectable it currently is in the UK.

Corbyn would rather see labour in perpetual opposition but holding to the socialist line than see labour bury its socialism again like it did under Blair even if it ment getting elected and actualy being able to reverse austerity.

Yep. They are so blinded by their hate for Blair (who for the most part was actually a good prime minister who did a lot of good for the UK) that they will cut off their nose to spite their face. To hell with pragmatic realism, let's go "back to our roots" even if it means there will never be another Labour prime minister. Oh look, the Tories are screwing up again and people are suffering, better talk about nationalising everything and complain about the evil billionaires. Fucks sake.

[Jessicka]

So you missed "hug a hoodie" Cameron and the litteraly comparisons of May with a robot? The maybot.

What you have is a few cognative bias not a media bias.

Not entirely but they only managed to build coalition governments while those attacks went out. But did so while their opposition was under heavier attack.

How exactly do you think people build these perceptions of whether they like a leader or not, if not through the media? Most don't read or watch full interviews; they take in the soundbites they're handed.

[[Apok]]

They asked people if they supported corbyns policy's and the said no, up and down my area its the same story, labour will bankrupt us with nationalisation, labour will increase our taxes to pay for all this, labour will cause my landlord to sell up and kick me out, e.t.c e.t.c.

What drives these opinions though,how does one come to the conclusion that said policies would bankrupt the country?

[Monster Hunter]

Yep. They are so blinded by their hate for Blair (who for the most part was actually a good prime minister who did a lot of good for the UK) that they will cut off their nose to spite their face. To hell with pragmatic realism, let's go "back to our roots" even if it means there will never be another Labour prime minister. Oh look, the Tories are screwing up again and people are suffering, better talk about nationalising everything and complain about the evil billionaires. Fucks sake.

Blair had faults. I think he was a bit stupid, I think his laws were tight in spirit but to open to misuse and misinterpretation, the Iraq war was a complete cluster fuck and illigal and was clearly about courting favor with Bush, and he didn't do enough for the generation in the North that was lost after the mines and industry closed but were to old to re-educate (even if homeless ex miners were a stable source of alcohol for me as a teenager).

But he did make alot of investments in social policy's, and he did make it so kids from my background could go to uni at all, there were far more opportunity's and a fsr better wealfair state under him than now and the NHS was in a far better state.

But that's not good enough for the far lefty's they would rather sink the party and leave us with the torys than ever soften and be electable.

[Kronik85]

I don't think the zee zim zur zibbedy soo dah shambam thing is even a thing here in the UK.

I have never heard of any one irl say anything about it that isn't a joke, I only have 2 trans freinds so it's not a wide sample but even they think non binary is some Internet fad.

It's an issue in it's infancy I guess, it's something that teenagers and the younger end of the 20's is keyed into whilst the rest of the nation doesn't even recognise the language, never mind that some people are trying to make this into a debate. Having read the description of non binary as a 34 yo, married, hetero male I'm pretty confident that I am also non binary (and I'm serious btw, previous to being a "warehouse operative" I was working as a care worker (but I had to jack it in because zero hours and fuck doing a 12 hour working day for 6 hours pay 6 days a week), I do the cooking and I take part in the cleaning of the house and the wife earns more money than me, the value I place on myself has nothing to do with being a manly man).

Ruth Smeeth my former MP however thinks she just lost her seat because of anti semitism, yet 7 miles down the road from where she hosted her town halls my colleagues will routinely use "paki" in describing their colleagues and hope that Brexit will mean that English becomes the primary language in our warehouse rather than Romanian>English>Urdu. It hasn't even registered yet that racist language is bad over here. nevermind the idea that some people might disagree with it lol.

[Monster Hunter]

What drives these opinions though,how does one come to the conclusion that said policies would bankrupt the country?

The 1970s and 80s bad goverment.

What Jessicka conveniently forgets when she's buissy attracking the media is most of us round here, don't consume the media, many only log Facebook once a week at best. The group that lost them the election is the poor working class over 40s of the North and for those guys your lucky if they evean read a paper, I know I worked in the local shop and delivered the papers, it's mostly tity mags like the sun of which they see the boobs and then read the sports section befor binning it.

But that's the difference in perspective between the cosmopolitan working class and the mining town working class.

Other than she pays £5 for a pint and I pay £3.50.

People round here get most of there news and form most of there opinions in the pub.

[FluFF]

Whenever I read Brexit supporter comments on articles I am always baffled on how you can be an adult and have such a childish view on the world, the EU or others in even your own country with other views, here are some gems I found today on articles about BoJo's victory.

'' President [LOL] Donald Tusk could only manage to say I look forward to meeting you to discuss in detail our co-operation, that is the sum total of his acknowledgement that WE WON - there is a real sense of gloom in the corridors of the EU 'palaces'!! ''

'' Hopefully the NHS goes private to uk citizens who pay tax. The rest should get that hefty bill we would get in any other country. That'll stop them from coming over with their attitudes and popping kids out. ''

Go BoJo Go! At last he has the majority he needs to stop the stalling and dirty tricks by the traitorous Remoaners. HERE WE GO FOLKS... THE GREAT IS ABOUT TO BE PUT BACK IN IT'S RIGHTFUL PLACE ALONGSIDE BRITAIN.

It's like watching 11 year olds comment on things like getting beaten in a videogame, or seeing ''chavs'' having an argument.

Can you really be that thumbed down by anti EU propaganda ? then again 80 years ago a whole county got thumbed down by German right wing propaganda so I dunno why I am even surprised that some actually see the EU as some big bad boogieman or the source of all that went wrong in their own lives ( and it definitely was never from own choices or a law passed by your own British government, nope all the big bad EU bullies )

[[Apok]]

The 1970s and 80s bad goverment.

What Jessicka conveniently forgets when she's buissy attracking the media is most of us round here, don't consume the media, many only log Facebook once a week at best. The group that lost them the election is the poor working class over 40s of the North and for those guys your lucky if they evean read a paper, I know I worked in the local shop and delivered the papers, it's mostly tity mags like the sun of which they see the boobs and then read the sports section befor binning it.

But that's the difference in perspective between the cosmopolitan working class and the mining town working class.

Other than she pays £5 for a pint and I pay £3.50.

People round here get most of there news and form most of there opinions in the pub.

As with everything i guess it's where you're from, i come from the north aswell specifically very hard hit by the tories both in the last ten years of austerity and previous to that, people up this way do seem to mostly get their opinions from what they see in the odd newspaper headline, random shared stuff on facebook and what they see on whatever is on in the pubs on tv. usually sky news, or sky sports news.

And the pubs up here sadly seem to be an echo chamber of blame it on someone else. When people parrot bad headlines and fake news where else does that come from apart from media consumption and then word of mouth.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It's a people the fundementaly feel left behind and forgotten by globalisation and a metropolitan elite society, many of them from heavy industry and mining stock or decent who talk stright and feel slighted by there nations establishment for esentialy milking them for century's for the Labour only to up sticks and leave them I ly with unfulffiling retail and shit jobs left in there areas when some where else will do that labour for cheaper.

They hae lost trust in the left wing. And Alot of leftwingers don't seem to grasp that or know how to handle that change, there so used to those areas being loyal and ignorable, and them selves always been seen as trustworthy they can't seem to understand that there now seen as the bad guys by these areas just as much as the likes of thatcher and ragan were in the 80s

The left has become like bad parents trying to force a child to take its medicine. This thread is a prime example.

Jessicka is from a metropolitan city in the red wall that's stayed red, I'm in that same red wall but I'm from an old mill town that's switched blue, a place thats been impoverished for over 50 years loyally voting Labour for a 100, and it angers them deeply we haven't towed the line.

So they show Labour that they are too distant for them to vote for them, by voting for an Etonian milllionaire that spent his youth burning £50 notes in front of tramps. And a party that is 100% in favour of globalisation and every opportunity it offers them to fuck over the working class of their own country in order to make a bit more profit.

If your way of getting back at your partner that hasn't been paying you enough attention is to run off with that guy that beats you, I'm going to question your sanity and your ability to think clearly. I'm probably not one of the people that is going to suffer for the next 5 years. But a fuck-ton of the people that according to you just voted Tory because Labour is too detached from how they live, are certainly going to suffer. And my sympathy for them has run out.

- - - Updated - - -

If Labour choose Corbyn Mk2 they are absolutely fucked and will remain in opposition for the foreseeable future, possibly never becoming a party of government again.

Whoever Labour choose, the media are going to paint them as being Corbyn Mk2. As long as people keep believing the lies, they won't stop spouting them.

[Jessicka]

The 1970s and 80s bad goverment.

What Jessicka conveniently forgets when she's buissy attracking the media is most of us round here, don't consume the media, many only log Facebook once a week at best. The group that lost them the election is the poor working class over 40s of the North and for those guys your lucky if they evean read a paper, I know I worked in the local shop and delivered the papers, it's mostly tity mags like the sun of which they see the boobs and then read the sports section befor binning it.

But that's the difference in perspective between the cosmopolitan working class and the mining town working class.

Other than she pays £5 for a pint and I pay £3.50.

People round here get most of there news and form most of there opinions in the pub.

And where does the idea it would bankrupt the country come from? Maybe the misleading adverts that were repeated ad nauseum by the press that said Labour plans would cost £1.2Tn? In spite of being disproven by every fact checker, including the BBC; which again, never followed that up properly thanks to the arcane placement of their fact-checker columns on their website should anyone decide to read them - which they do - but they simply don't dig that deep.

I know where they get their news from, it's from The Sun and Daily Mail. I used to have to sell those shitrags to working class people on their way to work while they picked up their pasties and pork pies for lunch. They were by far the most popular papers we shipped out the door.

The fact checking and accountability has become little more than a check box service to adhere to whatever little laws and regulation on balance they face. It's like when papers publish corrections and apologies on page 37 in a tiny paragraph at the bottom of the page. The intention is that they're not given the attention they should, and it's no secret at all to anyone in marketing where to hide this shit in plane sight, because they charge through the eyeballs for an advert placement that will be seen. Best and worst places to put stuff in a paper or on a website to it's seen (or indeed hidden) are exceptionally well understood.

[Huehuecoyotl]

The 1970s and 80s bad goverment.

What Jessicka conveniently forgets when she's buissy attracking the media is most of us round here, don't consume the media, many only log Facebook once a week at best. The group that lost them the election is the poor working class over 40s of the North and for those guys your lucky if they evean read a paper, I know I worked in the local shop and delivered the papers, it's mostly tity mags like the sun of which they see the boobs and then read the sports section befor binning it.

But that's the difference in perspective between the cosmopolitan working class and the mining town working class.

Other than she pays £5 for a pint and I pay £3.50.

People round here get most of there news and form most of there opinions in the pub.

People like you are more than happy to spout the "when Labour left they had a note saying 'there's no money left' aren't they terrible?" lines and the like. Forgetting that since the Tories got into power in 2010 they took "no money" as a starting point and made it a trillion pounds worse. They are 9 years into their 5 year plan to clear the deficit, and when their tactic of austerity wasn't working they decided they just needed more of it, for longer.

The Tories have always been bad for the wider economy and for the poorest part of society in particular. But because we get bombarded with "Labour are bad with the economy" continually, certain people don't understand that. Despite the fact that apparently the media has no effect on anything!

[Monster Hunter]

It's an issue in it's infancy I guess, it's something that teenagers and the younger end of the 20's is keyed into whilst the rest of the nation doesn't even recognise the language, never mind that some people are trying to make this into a debate. Having read the description of non binary as a 34 yo, married, hetero male I'm pretty confident that I am also non binary (and I'm serious btw, previous to being a "warehouse operative" I was working as a care worker (but I had to jack it in because zero hours and fuck doing a 12 hour working day for 6 hours pay 6 days a week), I do the cooking and I take part in the cleaning of the house and the wife earns more money than me, the value I place on myself has nothing to do with being a manly man).

Ruth Smeeth my former MP however thinks she just lost her seat because of anti semitism, yet 7 miles down the road from where she hosted her town halls my colleagues will routinely use "paki" in describing their colleagues and hope that Brexit will mean that English becomes the primary language in our warehouse rather than Romanian>English>Urdu. It hasn't even registered yet that racist language is bad over here. nevermind the idea that some people might disagree with it lol.

I don't know and its kind of off topic on the woke non-binary thing. But i agree with my freind that the non-binary thing stems more from a desire to define them selves and also belong to a group of like minded people. and it's not something related to gender dysphoria or to gender at all, people are just people, labels and cataorys are stupid and it's not something that would ever make me decide to vote one way or another. But they have a right to define them selves how ever they want and though I don't belive in it and I find the science very sketchy at best over it, it's not my place to dictate to them.

On the racism that is a big and growing problem, not enough has been done to join community's together and the fear of the other is feeding it definatly I do think there is two aspects to it though I play cricket alot so naturally I form close friendships with memebers of the Asian and Muslim community and a few of them have said the us and them mindset is there on that side too and this feeds a horrible cycle that only further feeds division and resentment between what are really two working class community's seperate only be skin colour and religion. I am a firm belive that class is still the biggest definer of a person's chance at success in this country though.

My reasoning for this is as you have probly experienced at least one instance where they have tried to explain how there taxi driver is a "paki" but the Asian guy they have a pint with now and then is there mate, Or something like that. As disgusting as I find that I do see there is a small hope there in fighting against this if only the people in power could get some perspective on the nuance of our community's instead of just seeing us as voting blocks.

The anti-sematism thing. I belive the outrage on the whole amongst our areas isn't so much from a position of cincerity but from a position of the scolded child catching a parent doing the same thing, it made labour look like hypocrites for long taking a high moral stance and lecturing the people only to be found that they have there own group some of them hate. I think it's the hypocrisy there taking issue with not really the racism as sad as that is to say.

I don't think your MP is whole right though. I think Khan is on the money in what he's said today, there isn't going to be one single reason why Labour took such a huge beating in the election and any one who claims a singular cause "isnt credible" in his words, though Itake a softer stance in saying that alot of these MP's just had the wool lifted from there eyes over night and suddenly lost there jobs so it's a natural reaction to what immediate answers and there each jumping to there favorite reasoning, whether that's jess Philips complete and utter rage at corbyn or you MP at anti sematism having an answer even if it's going to be proven I think as just one of multiple failures is comforting at this time for them.

[Kronik85]

The fact checking and accountability has become little more than a check box service to adhere to whatever little laws and regulation on balance they face. It's like when papers publish corrections and apologies on page 37 in a tiny paragraph at the bottom of the page. The intention is that they're not given the attention they should, and it's no secret at all to anyone in marketing where to hide this shit in plane sight, because they charge through the eyeballs for an advert placement that will be seen. Best and worst places to put stuff in a paper or on a website to it's seen (or indeed hidden) are exceptionally well understood.

I can certainly get behind this line of thinking. Whats the point of fact checking when there is no accountability for bullshitting beyond that a fact checking website that is mostly ignored says that you're full of shit. Again, if people want to tap into a genuine vein of anger amongst the working class then it's the absolute failure to see justice done. Most fraudulent benefits claimants would really fucking struggle to notch up anything close to The Expenses Scandal yet who faces a criminal record (hint it wasn't the fucking MPs)? It appears to many that we have a 2 track justice system in this country with 0 accountability if you happen to reach a certain income bracket, like seriously, how many potential investigations did BoJo have going into this? Directly lying to The Queen? Breaking the law on asking for an extension (that second letter/PR stunt was illegal). Lying every time you open your mouth or write a slogan on the side of bus?

So yeah, we need to have a serious talk about this if we are to have an actual informed democracy in this country rather than whatever the fuck dystopia we are living right now.

[[Apok]]

I can certainly get behind this line of thinking. Whats the point of fact checking when their is no accountability for bullshitting beyond that a fact checking website that is mostly ignored says that you're full of shit. Again, if people want to tap into a genuine vein of anger amongst the working class then it's the absolute failure to see justice done. Most fraudulent benefits claimants would really fucking struggle to notch up anything close to The Expenses Scandal yet who faces a criminal record (hint it wasn't the fucking MPs)? It appears to many that we have a 2 track justice system in this country with 0 accountability if you happen to reach a certain income bracket, like seriously, how many potential investigations did BoJo have going into this? Directly lying to The Queen? Breaking the law on asking for an extension (that second letter/PR stunt was illegal). Lying every time you open your mouth or write a slogan on the side of bus?

So yeah, we need to have a serious talk about this if we are to have an actual informed democracy in this country rather than whatever the fuck dystopia we are living right now.

Yer nae talking pish.

Gonnay no dae that.

[Monster Hunter]

So they show Labour that they are too distant for them to vote for them, by voting for an Etonian milllionaire that spent his youth burning £50 notes in front of tramps. And a party that is 100% in favour of globalisation and every opportunity it offers them to fuck over the working class of their own country in order to make a bit more profit.

If your way of getting back at your partner that hasn't been paying you enough attention is to run off with that guy that beats you, I'm going to question your sanity and your ability to think clearly. I'm probably not one of the people that is going to suffer for the next 5 years. But a fuck-ton of the people that according to you just voted Tory because Labour is too detached from how they live, are certainly going to suffer. And my sympathy for them has run out.

- - - Updated - - -



Whoever Labour choose, the media are going to paint them as being Corbyn Mk2. As long as people keep believing the lies, they won't stop spouting them.

Well first of all there large numbers who voted lib dem and BXP and that split the Labour vote to let the cons in.

Secound of all there the people you need to win back if you want to win elections so you need to make a choice, stay in the political fight, find out how to win these people over so you can get power away from the torys or bow out and enjoy a happy life some where.

Raging at them and insulting them though isn't going to change anything, rather it will just further entretch them in there convictions and just perpetuate this state of affairs.

I mean I hope you can see the logic there even though your angry right now?

- - - Updated - - -

And where does the idea it would bankrupt the country come from? Maybe the misleading adverts that were repeated ad nauseum by the press that said Labour plans would cost £1.2Tn? In spite of being disproven by every fact checker, including the BBC; which again, never followed that up properly thanks to the arcane placement of their fact-checker columns on their website should anyone decide to read them - which they do - but they simply don't dig that deep.

I know where they get their news from, it's from The Sun and Daily Mail. I used to have to sell those shitrags to working class people on their way to work while they picked up their pasties and pork pies for lunch. They were by far the most popular papers we shipped out the door.

The fact checking and accountability has become little more than a check box service to adhere to whatever little laws and regulation on balance they face. It's like when papers publish corrections and apologies on page 37 in a tiny paragraph at the bottom of the page. The intention is that they're not given the attention they should, and it's no secret at all to anyone in marketing where to hide this shit in plane sight, because they charge through the eyeballs for an advert placement that will be seen. Best and worst places to put stuff in a paper or on a website to it's seen (or indeed hidden) are exceptionally well understood.

If you think there reading the sun for political news I think your suffering from intelligence bias. There not interested at all in politics, there after the boobs and the sports section.

The start and end of there politics is when something randomly floats across there feed or convorsation shared by some one the know and they giver the 2cent on it and then get another pint, we both know that.

The extent of the media's influance on the working class is greatly overstated. Word of mouth is still very much king even if its in WhatsApp groups now.

- - - Updated - - -

People like you are more than happy to spout the "when Labour left they had a note saying 'there's no money left' aren't they terrible?" lines and the like. Forgetting that since the Tories got into power in 2010 they took "no money" as a starting point and made it a trillion pounds worse. They are 9 years into their 5 year plan to clear the deficit, and when their tactic of austerity wasn't working they decided they just needed more of it, for longer.

The Tories have always been bad for the wider economy and for the poorest part of society in particular. But because we get bombarded with "Labour are bad with the economy" continually, certain people don't understand that. Despite the fact that apparently the media has no effect on anything!

I didn't vote nor hae ever voted tory so your kinda barking up the wrong tree with what you said there. Dribbles should be along at some point, likely to gloat or something if you want to send it to him.