How do you feel about Andrew Yang's UBI of 1,000 a month for every US Adult

[Shadowferal]

Good thing I'm not a party line whore, nor a "red" (at least insofar as current red is concerned). You seem to think I'm for whatever it is you're talking about just because of where it is or who it impacts. I assure you, I'm not.

Then you're the extreme minority.

[jeezusisacasual]

I feel the "dignity" argument just doesn't have any merit at all.

Artists and such find dignity and value in what they do, even if it isn't financially profitable.

Homemakers find value and dignity there, as well.

Same for those volunteering with some organization or another.

The fact that we try and tie self-worth and dignity to a paycheck is, itself, indicative of a deep rot within modern society. By that measure, Vincent Van Gogh was terrible failure and no one should respect anything he accomplished. Instead, he's recognized as one of the greatest artists who ever lived. And on the other side, you're saying that people like the Kardashians, who make a ton of money, have more value and dignity than a high school teacher dropping his first paycheck on school supplies for his classroom.

I find the entire idea to be utterly ludicrous as the basis for anything.

Not all but almost every tradesman i have talked to and interacted with has had that sense of pride and self worth. It is about commanding respect and having a talent that makes you believe yourself to be better then another even in the same field. Not all mind you but i am willing to bet at the very least 30%+ do which is large enough to care about their whims at the very least.

This is the same reason as to why you see so many struggle with mental illness and a hatred towards the other that they feel steals their employment. Without a very large world wide event equal to that of WW2 i think we will be on this same global capitalistic boat.

[DisposableHero]

If you want society to give you something, you better be willing or able to give something to society. Simply existing isn't enough.

Why? Please explain it to me. The first world has the resources to make comfortable dignified living a birthright of its citizens. Why is it immoral to do so?

[BeepBoo]

Why? Please explain it to me. The first world has the resources to make comfortable dignified living a birthright of its citizens. Why is it immoral to do so?

Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.

One more time in simpler fashion:

I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.

[kaid]

I'm not making a comment on policy, I'm literally just saying that I don't like them. I think they've expressed a selfish, anti-social, downright childish sentiment. You're reading too much more into it.

Is it any more antisocial and selfish than a handful of people having the resources of half the population of our country? Do you think that one person does more work in a day than half the country combined? Honestly if somebody does not want to work and thinks they can live on 12k a year I say to them good luck and try not to starve.

[BeepBoo]

Is it any more antisocial and selfish than a handful of people having the resources of half the population of our country? Do you think that one person does more work in a day than half the country combined? Honestly if somebody does not want to work and thinks they can live on 12k a year I say to them good luck and try not to starve.

Do I think those billionaires CURRENTLY are worth how much they have? No. They're protected by favorable laws that disproportionately protect them and unnaturally alter markets in their favor.

HOWEVER

I can entirely see someone rising to near the same levels of wealth in a free market, and to that I'd say.. yeah. if society thinks whatever that person has done deserves that much wealth, then clearly they are doing something more valuable than an entire half of the country combined.

[Shadowferal]

But free markets have proven time and time again that they don't benefit society at all.
People need to stop with the Ayn Rand shit.
We already seen what Robber Barons are. And Teddy "trustbuster" Roosevelt dealt with them as politicians should be doing today.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Why? Please explain it to me. The first world has the resources to make comfortable dignified living a birthright of its citizens. Why is it immoral to do so?

Where do those resources come from?

[Endus]

If you want society to give you something, you better be willing or able to give something to society. Simply existing isn't enough.

They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.

So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.

Not all but almost every tradesman i have talked to and interacted with has had that sense of pride and self worth.

I didn't say working a job couldn't provide you with self-worth and dignity.

But ask yourself if the same "self worth and dignity" is true of the young woman who's stripping to support herself and her young daughter, because she can make more money that way than otherwise.

Ask yourself if it applies to the high school graduate working the night shift at the 7-11 so he can afford college.

Or the new college graduate who's taking a job as a barista because there aren't any jobs in their field of specialization right now, even though it's a pay cut of about 70% of what they should be earning, because the student loan people need to get paid.

The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.

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Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.

Bragging about how you support enslaving people against their will definitely means that morality has a lot to do with your position. Specifically, the lack of any moral code whatsoever.

[DisposableHero]

I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.

So like, infrastructure and utilities of all kinds, the rule of law, political franchise, and the same basic income schema as everyone else (the U in UBI is Universal after all) is nothing? You get the same from taxes as everyone else. What you get from working is the currency to buy luxuries which those who don't work in this theoretical scenario don't get.

[Jonnusthegreat]

They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.

So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.

I usually think you a rational poster, but you didn't think this one through.

[BeepBoo]

They already contribute via paying taxes (there's more than income tax) and through acting as a consumer.

The idea that they're not contributing to society is a deliberate lie, and it's one made with malicious intent, to justify policies explicitly designed to increase human suffering.

Lol. Buying shit for your own sustainment and fulfillment is apparently contributing more than enough to society for them to be willing to carry your ass! You read it here first. Giving people the PRIVILEGE of supporting your ass gives them purpose. They should be so lucky!

So you'll forgive me if I don't take that argument seriously. Because it shouldn't be, by any rational human being.

Rational human beings are aware that human life innately is meaningless and has no inherent value. It simply exists. Nothing more, nothing less.

Or the new college graduate who's taking a job as a barista because there aren't any jobs in their field of specialization right now, even though it's a pay cut of about 70% of what they should be earning, because the student loan people need to get paid.

"No jobs right" is a nice way of saying "picked the wrong degree","not as appealing as other candidates for some reason", or "inflexible and unwilling to move."

The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.

Who cares about self worth? We're talking about worth to society.

Bragging about how you support enslaving people against their will definitely means that morality has a lot to do with your position. Specifically, the lack of any moral code whatsoever.

You need to learn the difference between personal morals and points of governance and expectations for other people. Just because I call myself christian doesn't mean I'm gonna try to make laws so that everyone has to be. Just because I hate greedy billionaires doesn't mean I'm going to try to legislate out greed from humanity. Just because I wouldn't get an abortion on a kid just because it has downs doesn't mean I'm gonna try to make it so others can't do that.

My morals are irrelevant to governance because I'm not so fucking sanctimonious that I presume everyone needs to follow my idea of "perfect."

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So like, infrastructure and utilities of all kinds, the rule of law, political franchise, and the same basic income schema as everyone else (the U in UBI is Universal after all) is nothing?

But you're ignoring the part where these people wouldn't contribute nearly as much as they get. That's the point. Money is a valuation of an individual's worth to the society, and society is made up of the free wills of everyone combined, taking into account their own worth versus everyone elses, their own desires and power versus everyone elses, etc.

Why do you suddenly get to decide that some fuck baby is now my problem? Because it was born? That's easy. It's nothing special in and of itself. "The miracle of life" is a lie. It's not a miracle, and it's not special. Ergo, it is deserving of nothing on it's own. Or would you pay $12 for a pencil? Piece of tape? Humans are a resource. A tool for the society they choose to participate in, at least as far as society is concerned. They're cell in the human body. Fat cells have their place, but too many makes an unfit body that will die early.

You get the same from taxes as everyone else. What you get from working is the currency to buy luxuries which those who don't work in this theoretical scenario don't get.

People don't all derive the same benefit from taxes, though. POTENTIAL benefit does not equal derived or realized benefit. They should be free to choose how much something does or does not matter to them.

[Clone]

The idea that jobs are always people's source of self-worth and dignity is, frankly, bullshit. You're cherry-picking the few for whom that's true and pretending that applies to everyone, and it flatly doesn't.

Yup. I love my work but hate my job. I'd do it for free if I didn't have to worry about income.

[Endus]

I usually think you a rational poster, but you didn't think this one through.

You're going to have to dig a bit deeper.

Because hell, the concept I'm talking about is core to the entire framework of capitalist theory.

Rational human beings are aware that human life innately is meaningless and has no inherent value. It simply exists. Nothing more, nothing less.

If that were true, then murdering someone wouldn't have any consequences, because nothing of value was lost.

It clearly isn't true. Why make up horseshit like this?

My morals are irrelevant to governance because I'm not so fucking sanctimonious that I presume everyone needs to follow my idea of "perfect."

I was pointing out how your lack of an apparent moral code led you to recommend abusive policies that encourage and require human suffering.

Your lack of morals is absolutely at the core of all that. Amoral policy-making is not a positive.

[Vash The Stampede]

Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.

Then why don't you kick out the rich since they do nothing but suck up money? Most rich people don't work and let their money make them more money. There are so many scammers today that if feels like 50% of people working are in some way trying to rip off people. The truth is anyone who's made over a billion dollars has ripped off someone as some point, because honest work doesn't make that kind of money.

I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.

To be honest, your compliance isn't a factor. We vote, someone wins, you get taxed and that money gets redistributed based on how the voters feel they should. Right now a lot of tax payer money is going into rich peoples pockets via subsidies. Nearly all big corporations get subsidies and that's somehow fine. Also, the banks received 3 Trillion dollars because they don fucked up. That's a lot of free money for a bunch of free loaders who basically crash our economy every 10 years or so.

What you get in return is no Bell Riots, cause it's looking a lot like that's going to happen lately. The homeless situation is so bad that NY is shipping their homeless like trash that even China won't take. UBI is the way to solve these problems with trickle up economics because so far bailing out the rich has not been working, like at all. The burden of the 2008 recession was put onto the poor while the rich pumped up their stocks to unbelievable levels, thanks to some tax payer money. Seriously, some businesses pay nothing in taxes and got tax returns that they used as stock buy back.



- - - Updated - - -

Morality has nothing to do with it. That dignified living comes from somewhere and someone. Personally, I'm not willing to work without getting something in return, and that also means I'm not willing to provide for someone who isn't willing to attempt to provide something themselves. I'd sooner kick them out of my society. There is no room for free-loaders.

Then why don't you kick out the rich since they do nothing but suck up money? Most rich people don't work and let their money make them more money. There are so many scammers today that if feels like 50% of people working are in some way trying to rip off people. The truth is anyone who's made over a billion dollars has ripped off someone as some point, because honest work doesn't make that kind of money.

I'm not putting in anything unless I'm getting something in return. Free loaders are getting something from me without giving anything in return. Ergo, I decline to participate.

To be honest, your compliance isn't a factor. We vote, someone wins, you get taxed and that money gets redistributed based on how the voters feel they should. Right now a lot of tax payer money is going into rich peoples pockets via subsidies. Nearly all big corporations get subsidies and that's somehow fine. Also, the banks received 3 Trillion dollars because they don fucked up. That's a lot of free money for a bunch of free loaders who basically crash our economy every 10 years or so.

What you get in return is no Bell Riots, cause it's looking a lot like that's going to happen lately. The homeless situation is so bad that NY is shipping their homeless like trash that even China won't take. UBI is the way to solve these problems with trickle up economics because so far bailing out the rich has not been working, like at all. The burden of the 2008 recession was put onto the poor while the rich pumped up their stocks to unbelievable levels, thanks to some tax payer money. Seriously, some businesses pay nothing in taxes and got tax returns that they used as stock buy back.

[Jonnusthegreat]

You're going to have to dig a bit deeper.

Because hell, the concept I'm talking about is core to the entire framework of capitalist theory.

The idea that Joe using money earned through other people's taxes is considered JOE contributing is laughable.

Yes, taxes happen a thousand times, but to give Joe credit for his contribution? He did nothing but exist.

[Vash The Stampede]

Yup. I love my work but hate my job. I'd do it for free if I didn't have to worry about income.

I'd open up a shop that restores old cars or make a business that builds and repairs gaming PCs, but I don't have the money for that. A UBI would go a long way into making that happen. Especially if everyone got $12k a year, that means that people have spending money, which would only promote my business idea even further. Animators on YouTube could spend more time animating instead of working at terrible jobs that barely pay minimum wage. Or more people would spend more time contributing to open source projects like Linux instead of working at Starbucks.

So much potential could come from UBI. I mean yea, lots of people would sit on their asses all day and do nothing, but I find that acceptable. Maybe they'd go back to school or start a family. Seriously, not enough people fucking and making babies today, as our birth rate in 1st world countries are scary low. People can move out of high rent and expensive areas to live and move to cheaper places, thus reducing the cost of rent. So much good can come from this.

[Endus]

The idea that Joe using money earned through other people's taxes is considered JOE contributing is laughable.

Yes, taxes happen a thousand times, but to give Joe credit for his contribution? He did nothing but exist.

You might think it's "laughable", but it's entirely true.

The hypothetical UBI stipend Joe gets from the government is just as much "Joe's money" as a hypothetical paycheck from a job would be. That it was given to Joe by another entity is just you noticing that economies are transactional, which really shouldn't be a revelation.

Your entire position is based on a double standard, and thus doesn't hold merit.

[Jonnusthegreat]

You might think it's "laughable", but it's entirely true.

The hypothetical UBI stipend Joe gets from the government is just as much "Joe's money" as a hypothetical paycheck from a job would be. That it was given to Joe by another entity is just you noticing that economies are transactional, which really shouldn't be a revelation.

Your entire position is based on a double standard, and thus doesn't hold merit.

We should all contribute just as Joe does and refuse to work. You would be so proud and society would flourish.

If anything, the government is contributing to society through Joe as a vessel.

[Shadowferal]

Consumer spending by Joe Average has always fueled economies into power houses.