View Poll Results: Would you like Baine as Warchief?

Voters
290. This poll is closed
  • Yes

    88 30.34%
  • No

    202 69.66%

Thread: Warchief Baine

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I wonder, if he's label as Alliance while being in Stormwind as a Emissary, will the Horde be able to kill him? (or will he be as Malfurion and just stand there while we kill Anduin?)
    It is instanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Faction pride died with garrosh for the horde and varian for the alliance. Leaders for either faction doesn't really matter anymore because there are no more conflict characters, IE characters that want more than a peaceful stalemate.
    There was Sylvanas too. She was cool.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryRedVixen View Post
    I honestly dont get the hate towards baine, hes never betrayed the idea of the horde that his father and thrall set out to make so longago, with voljin.
    He gave his people, who were defending their lands against invaders, the same punishment Magatha received for killing Cairne. He has on multiple occassions underminds horde operations to meet with Alliance leadership. He gave up on all issues concerning Camp Tauraho because he was supposed to be the voice of peace while the war was escalating on all fronts. He opted to fight and kill horde members to give Jaina her brother's remains. I'm not entirely sure what people think Cairne would have done... But I don't think Cairne would have ignored the plight of Gann Stonespire or the loss of Tauren territory to foreign invaders and I don't think Cairne would have bent over backwards to parlay with the Alliance at every chance possible. This is part of why Baine gets a lot of hate... in the lore department he hasn't really worked for the benefit of his people. He's always been more against the warmongering power that is moving the greater horde storyline and as a byproduct of this he's seen working with the Alliance. We don't see him really helping the Tauren when they're having issues (this was a planned event for the Gates of Mulgore that was cut).
    Quote Originally Posted by FurryRedVixen View Post
    Its almost like people enjoyed being pawns of the banshee queen or murderous sociopaths of garrash.
    Part of the problem here is that people use this analogy when some of it was the horde parties putting the horde first. The story then twisted the characters to full on villains to railroad the plot forward. Many people liked the Stonetalon Garrosh storyline and others liked Garrosh being an upfront arrogant prick trying to 'fix' a problem (most people didn't see the problem as such but still an angle worth looking at)... but then he had to go literally hitler and orcs only true horde bullshit.

    Sylvanas had a similar start with that little speech about peace not gonna last... this being particularly interesting if they kept focus on some of the recent hostilities between the factions and a certain leader's lack of ability to control his peers. But then the story railroading downhill really leaves a sour taste cause it's like the writers are constantly berating people for not sharing their opinions. The options are "Sheep" who follow Sylvanas blindly... or idiots that immediately turn on authority because they never trusted the leadership they allowed to get put in charge....

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Talking about Sylvanas? Because, y'know, she did "accept the death of her people", and "killed her own soldiers". Unlike Baine, though, she did so gleefully.
    She had both official and secret reasons for that. Baine's official(I doubt he is smart enough to have secrets) reason is that all his people deserve to die because Alliance is always right.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    As someone who mained Alliance in Vanilla, swapped to Horde around AQ, mained Horde through Suramar, then swapped to Alliance for the raiding guild I'm currently in, I voted yes. Having seen both sides' stories, I think it would be far more interesting to have Baine and Anduin in a position of power where they don't have the luxury of leaving hard decisions to the actual leader. If they want to pursue peace, they have to be the ones to make the hard calls. When the Horde and Alliance have a conflict, and their people's best interests require them to not be on the same side of the issue, how does that affect their friendship? I think that's a far more interesting story than what we had during the last ceasefire, which was Anduin pleading with his father for peace and Baine pleading with whomever the current warchief is for peace without having to actually consider the welfare of their people.
    Historically... Baine has dropped the horde interests in favor of Alliance oppinion... basically every time. It'd be an interesting twist if his character had to make a decision in favor of horde interests and ACTUALLY did so...

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Part of the problem here is that people use this analogy when some of it was the horde parties putting the horde first. The story then twisted the characters to full on villains to railroad the plot forward. Many people liked the Stonetalon Garrosh storyline and others liked Garrosh being an upfront arrogant prick trying to 'fix' a problem (most people didn't see the problem as such but still an angle worth looking at)... but then he had to go literally hitler and orcs only true horde bullshit.

    Sylvanas had a similar start with that little speech about peace not gonna last... this being particularly interesting if they kept focus on some of the recent hostilities between the factions and a certain leader's lack of ability to control his peers. But then the story railroading downhill really leaves a sour taste cause it's like the writers are constantly berating people for not sharing their opinions. The options are "Sheep" who follow Sylvanas blindly... or idiots that immediately turn on authority because they never trusted the leadership they allowed to get put in charge....
    If Jaina was Horde, she would sell her soul to N'zoth in Legion or even Warlords.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    As someone who mained Alliance in Vanilla, swapped to Horde around AQ, mained Horde through Suramar, then swapped to Alliance for the raiding guild I'm currently in, I voted yes. Having seen both sides' stories, I think it would be far more interesting to have Baine and Anduin in a position of power where they don't have the luxury of leaving hard decisions to the actual leader. If they want to pursue peace, they have to be the ones to make the hard calls. When the Horde and Alliance have a conflict, and their people's best interests require them to not be on the same side of the issue, how does that affect their friendship? I think that's a far more interesting story than what we had during the last ceasefire, which was Anduin pleading with his father for peace and Baine pleading with whomever the current warchief is for peace without having to actually consider the welfare of their people.

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    Baine was instrumental in bringing in both the Highmountain and Zandalari. He was the main Horde leader orchestrating the Horde efforts on Zandalar while Nathanos orchestrated efforts on Kul Tiras. It makes sense from both of these perspectives that he'd be the one that the vulpera would talk to, since he's already aware of things that happened in Vol'dun and he's already worked as emissaries of allied races.

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    I assume you're talking about the scene at Rastakhan's funeral where Nathanos confirms the Alliance are about to win on all fronts and then Baine recommends opening negotiations? That's a far cry from saying, "Oh, they killed someone, so they must be correct and we should surrender." That's far more a, "Maybe we should stop throwing lives into a war we're about to lose and see if there's someway we can end this without bloodshed." I don't recall him ever mentioning the Alliance is 100% correct.
    Accepting peace now after alliance murdered rastakhan without them offer something zandalari trolls for the murder is in war terms saying you did nothing wrong and were 100% right.

  7. #67
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I'm not sure it's an L for lordaeron or if it's a weird thing about what the in game common writing is supposed to be vs what we can read. Common doesn't use any character that looks like a full on "L"

    I assumed it was something else for awhile cause it also resembles a "P" on it's upper portion which I don't think I can recall any "P" names of importance for Lordaeron. Perenolde was something I recalled but they were traitors to the alliance or a pawn someone used to try and usurp Alterac.

    Though I can't find much on what the symboles are... beyond it's position as "Icon of Courage"... I'm not sure what the heck it is supposed to be.
    It is 100% an L for Lordaeron. The upper portion that looks like a P is a ship's wheel, the symbol in and of itself is really old to the franchise and predates a lot of the world building that would later bring us common as a non-english "latinesque" language. It was the original symbol of the "Grand Alliance of Lordaeron" that was composed entirely of human nations, with Lordaeron being the capital/leading nation. It had a small token force of elves and dwarves, as opposed to the Alliance of today which is helmed by Stormwind and composed of a wide variety of official non-human members.

    I'm not sure it's accurate to say that it's a "legion spawned" thing. Such advancements are typical in bringing groups together to force change more rapidly. Whether you call it "Warchief", "Leader", "Lord","Khan", "King", or "Emperor" it amounts to the same thing. A singular entity taking charge.
    While similar, all of those are by definition different things and stating that "warchief" is the same as any other leader completely disregards the nuance. The orcish clans did not have warchiefs prior to the Legion, they had chieftans advised by elders, most of which were shaman. They were predominantly peaceful except for when they had to defend themselves against the Gorian empire, and even then the orcs didn't do much, they asked the elements to step in on their behalf after the Gorians "went too far" and began to defile and demolish the Throne of Elements in Nagrand. The elemental furies then proceeded to completely eradicate the Gorian seat of power, which remained as a smoking crater for years until the Draenei arrived and built Shattarth where the Gorian capital used to be.


    It's an easy enough observation to say we only see it when the Legion/outside force intervened... cause that's the only times we actually see orc culture. But keep in mind that even without a 'warchief' leading they still fall in line under a leader with the same authority among their smaller clans. The original story starts with the legion already having Gul'dan coerce a mass movment of all orcs. WoD starts with Garrosh doing the same. There is no other option to see if that would happen anyways under another group like the bleeding hollow getting a vission of conquest or the thunderlords attempting to expand or hell maybe Blackhand was just waiting for a reason to do something himself.
    Well, yes, there is plenty to see of orcish culture pre-Legion and what the clans were like. The books and specifically the chronicles are excellent canon sources for that stuff. Thats where I'm getting all this to begin with - the position of warchief is essentially the highest ranking general, which didn't exist prior to the Legion because the orcish clans were not conquerors. They created "warchief" and have used it ever since because they've always been embroiled in war. Now that we're supposed to be heading towards peace, it makes sense that they're retiring the "warchief" position. IIRC I think Baine even talks about this in 8.3 but I haven't played much of it on the PTR.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Totally agreed. Alliance has no(Calia isn't officially Alliance.) claims to Lordaeron.

    First warchief was chosen by Ner'zhul to unite the clans against common enemy. Warchief is temporary leader for wartime(Roman dictator or Greek tactician) which is logical as huge armies need one supreme commander. However, warchiefs existed for 30+ years because in Warcraft there is no peace.
    They may have no legal claims but in the battle for Lordaeron Anduin clearly states "It's time to reclaim what's rightfully ours." before you ship off. Meaning in their minds they have a claim.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    If Jaina was Horde, she would sell her soul to N'zoth in Legion or even Warlords.
    She'd probably be strong up for warcrimes concerning Kul Tiras relations.. or violating peace by supporting armies/fleets... or that purge business.... you know. Instead she can do no wrong. ugh. I still laugh at the Battle for Lordaeron cutscene where Anduin walks up and is all about making Sylvanas pay for her crimes as though he's completely oblivious to the actions of literally every other person standing behind him.

    At this rate, we won't have enough horde characters left for a council.

  10. #70
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Faction pride died with garrosh for the horde and varian for the alliance. Leaders for either faction doesn't really matter anymore because there are no more conflict characters, IE characters that want more than a peaceful stalemate.
    Again I say that we should focus more on nation vs nation conflict instead of faction vs faction. It makes sense for these nations/races, in a post-legion-apocalypse war-torn setting to start to fight among themselves. Heck, all the Hordes been doing since Pandaria is fight internally. Just break up already. Stop putting up with the Forsaken's bullshit. If you're a tauren, stop following the orcs. They just get you into wars you don't want to be in with people you'd rather be allied with. Your debt to them for saving you from the centaur has been more than repaid by about 12 different world-ending threats you helped solve.

    If you're night elves, why are you bothering with the humans? The only thing thats keeping them in the Alliance is their fondness for the Gilneans and even Gilneas would rather be rolling Forsaken heads, the only thing keeping THEM in the Alliance is because Genn can't get over his dead son and is trying to replace him with Anduin.

    The blood elves remain confusing, having a chunk of their race remain with the Alliance, another chunk switch sides and go to the void, and the rest mostly fond of the Draenei and going to bat for them when they can. Remaining allied with the Horde cost them their relationship with the Kirin Tor, they're still treated like second class citizens, they may as well part with the Horde and form a coalition with the rest of their race and the Nightbourne. There's also now a huge amount of leaderless naga they could rekindle ties with.
    Last edited by Oneirophobia; 2019-12-15 at 10:15 PM.

  11. #71
    Epic! Ermelloth's Avatar
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    Voted no, but not because of Baine's relationship with Alliance, but rather because Baine has too little political experience to lead a huge multifaceted faction modern Horde is.

    I would pick Lor'themar instead

  12. #72
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    The main action didn't occur till after Calia revealed she was Calia.
    Everyone who was defecting was already doing so.



    She has a rather pleading moment with Elsie asking for her support. "You are my people," "You won't have to live in the shadows" She pointed out other defectors and was very much trying to get more. "[...] see them? They're defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect them all; [...]"

    Really looks as though she was trying to get more defectors. Page 516 of Before the Storm, btw.
    One person does not constitute a coup, and she spoke with that one person specifically because of the context of the conversation they just had.


    At this point the motives aren't supported in the material of the past stories. NOw Sylvanas has been working for ulterior motives since at least her suicide in the Wrath events post Wrath gate... or even longer still (despite no other proof present in lore sources).
    Not really relevant as we know they plan expansions years in advance... The storyline for Shadowlands was planned before Legion, or Before the Storm, ever came out, likely while WoD was still the current expansion.



    Cause the fourth war according to sources is having origins in Legion and disregarding the Northrend > Cata > MoP 'war'
    What origins, with Genn attacking Sylvie? Because the Horde started an unprovoked war with the Alliance in Ashran during WoD that we were never told "ended" so I'd say hostilities started there.
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  13. #73
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She had both official and secret reasons for that. Baine's official(I doubt he is smart enough to have secrets) reason is that all his people deserve to die because Alliance is always right.
    This is bullshit, and worthy of more potent descriptors that would likely land me a penalty.

    Baine's official reason is that he believes this war is a war that benefits no one but Sylvanas, and Sylvanas only, and her going so far as to violate someone's free will after forcefully raising said someone from their afterlife really goes against everything not only the Horde stands for, but also what Sylvanas used to be against.

    OG Sylvanas:
    • Undeath is a curse and torment;
    • Hates the Lich King for enslaving her.

    Today Sylvanas:
    • Everyone should be undead;
    • Does the exact same thing she hated the Lich King for.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    It is 100% an L for Lordaeron. The upper portion that looks like a P is a ship's wheel,
    That makes less sense IMO. Lordaeron was so well known for it's navy... and it's inland capitol with no port?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    the symbol in and of itself is really old to the franchise and predates a lot of the world building that would later bring us common as a non-english "latinesque" language. It was the original symbol of the "Grand Alliance of Lordaeron" that was composed entirely of human nations, with Lordaeron being the capital/leading nation. It had a small token force of elves and dwarves, as opposed to the Alliance of today which is helmed by Stormwind and composed of a wide variety of official non-human members.
    That's all well and good but that does little to really prove it's an "L" officially. My reason for thinking it's something else still lies in the fact that the character isn't officially present in the characters slated for common.

    All I've seen is that it was the symbol of lordaeron and nothing about what various parts of the symbol mean or what they are. Well except from various posts sharing their opinions that is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    Well, yes, there is plenty to see of orcish culture pre-Legion and what the clans were like. The books and specifically the chronicles are excellent canon sources for that stuff. Thats where I'm getting all this to begin with - the position of warchief is essentially the highest ranking general, which didn't exist prior to the Legion because the orcish clans were not conquerors. They created "warchief" and have used it ever since because they've always been embroiled in war. Now that we're supposed to be heading towards peace, it makes sense that they're retiring the "warchief" position. IIRC I think Baine even talks about this in 8.3 but I haven't played much of it on the PTR.
    Except there is no lore on unification of multiple clans except for WoD and post Legion. But then we also run into the problem where much of the lore on this comes around AFTER they had already set up and had to conform to an outcome anyways. Orc culture was such a major thing in wc1.... 3 was really when they branched out and made them more relatable. TBC retconned things again and revealed how blood thirsty they were before really rallying to invade Azeroth... and honestly I'm not enitrely sure similar events wouldn't have eventually happened regardless of the Legion stepping in. Point is, I see Warchief and Monarch as similar positions in terms of authority and they are something every civilization will produce if given time and incentive (incentive either being desire for conquest or threat of conquest), saying it's because of the Legion seems like an error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post

    One person does not constitute a coup, and she spoke with that one person specifically because of the context of the conversation they just had.
    Leader and primary orchestrator of the event from the forsaken side and unofficial leader of the party running the Undercity in Sylvanas' absence? I beg to differ. Elsie isn't just any forsaken among those in attendance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Not really relevant as we know they plan expansions years in advance... The storyline for Shadowlands was planned before Legion, or Before the Storm, ever came out, likely while WoD was still the current expansion.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. various internal monologues from past stories are now rendered very awkward because of new lore revelations because now we are to take them with an intent not displayed in past events. Also Some events people would like to attribute to this newer revelation are out of place with story told thus far.



    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    What origins, with Genn attacking Sylvie? Because the Horde started an unprovoked war with the Alliance in Ashran during WoD that we were never told "ended" so I'd say hostilities started there.
    Fourth War

    The information starts with Legion, never touches Ashran and refers to Teldrassil as the start...

    Ashran? Wrath Gate? Icecrown? Theramore? Divine Bell? Dalaran's Purge? Yeah not this war... but the third war is the one where lordaeron fell... and the other war bertween the Wrathgate and Broken shore that we all thought was going on? apparently not that big a deal.

    edit:

    at this point I just assume some people have their own count on wars and sort of fucked the continuity up.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Baine needs to be stabbed to death and processed into hamburger to feed Horde soldiers.
    If he wasn't useful in life, he might as well be in death.

  16. #76
    I wonder if Blizzard is aware that an enormous cross section of their playerbase dislikes Baine, regardless of faction or degree of Sylvanas loyalty.
    (Personally speaking, I have been anti-Sylvanas since Cataclysm, but would taker her back if it kept him out of Grommash Keep.)

    Just to remind people - we have seen Baine kill more Horde and aid more Alliance than the other way around.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    What origins, with Genn attacking Sylvie? Because the Horde started an unprovoked war with the Alliance in Ashran during WoD that we were never told "ended" so I'd say hostilities started there.
    Ashran simply put can not be canon, everything that happened there is ignored elsewhere in WoD to the point Horde and alliance characters are helping those in mainland Draenor that we're murdering on the island. Either A) Main WoD story line is a what if or B) Ashran is a What if.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    I wonder if Blizzard is aware that an enormous cross section of their playerbase dislikes Baine, regardless of faction or degree of Sylvanas loyalty.
    (Personally speaking, I have been anti-Sylvanas since Cataclysm, but would taker her back if it kept him out of Grommash Keep.)

    Just to remind people - we have seen Baine kill more Horde and aid more Alliance than the other way around.
    They definitely are. Its the reason they pulled the loyalist "choice" out their asses at the last minute cause they knew a lot of people werent down with the whole thing.

  19. #79
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    No. The horde is dead
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    They definitely are. Its the reason they pulled the loyalist "choice" out their asses at the last minute cause they knew a lot of people werent down with the whole thing.
    Right but that was for pro-Sylvanas - not necessarily "anti-Baine".
    I was pro-Saurfang and still actively despised, and continue to despise, Baine. I'm not sure we've seen evidence that they're aware that nearly everyone dislikes Baine.

    I legit would have skipped his rescue if possible and I was still pro-rebellion.
    Sad-bull made a choice to kill Horde to save an Ally, then did a poor job covering it up and got his henchman killed - he should pay the consequences for those actions - not necessitate that we kill more Horde to save him.
    Last edited by Villager720; 2019-12-15 at 11:39 PM.

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