[TV] Watchmen

[eschatological]

If that's your takeaway from the character, cool, but it's quite a stretch, and just one of many pieces of evidence that we have for his not being beyond human needs, wants, or goals. Perhaps his trajectory aims that way, but that still leaves lots of room for a new person with those abilities to pursue their own needs, wants, and goals during their first few decades of existence.

He literally said that in the last episode with Angela why he went into Vietnam. Not because he was any flag waving patriot, but because he thought it would assauge people's fears about him, that he was a force for "good."

[Zaktar]

He literally said that in the last episode with Angela why he went into Vietnam. Not because he was any flag waving patriot, but because he thought it would assauge people's fears about him, that he was a force for "good."

And what does his choice of how to present as "good" tell us about him? Once again, had he been born in Vietnam, do you imagine he would have chosen to be a force for good in the same way? What a character says is just a part of how we understand them. How would a white supremacist choose to be a force for good? Why does he imagine he has to be a force for good at all? Because of who he was as a person before he became Dr Manhattan, and what happened since. He didn't stop being a person, his perspective just changed.

The people I responded to seem to think that the baddies plan will fail because the process will cause their perspective to change too much to advance their plans, but there is no evidence that this is the case. New Dr M will be a force for what he perceives to be good.

[mojojojo202]

Last episode was not nearly as good as the previous 2, there is some nice stuff, in particular the non-linear story telling is nicely managed where it could have been a garbled mess, I particularly like the reluctance to show Dr M's face, something that kind of falls flat when he seemingly forgets he has Cal's face at the end. Maybe it would have been nice to do that as he turns back to Dr M but by the time the scene ends, when he is fully restored as Dr M his face is hidden again. A bit of visual story-telling to show his drift away from humanity.

I don't really get this Dr M though. A huge plot point in the GN is that the more time passes the more he loses his connection to the human race to the point where Laurie becomes disillusioned and unhappy with their relationship becasue Jon can no longer live a human life. It feels weird that, 30 years later, he has then developed the fullness of human emotion needed in order to not just love Angela, but to sacrifice what he is for her.

[draynay]

I don't really get this Dr M though. A huge plot point in the GN is that the more time passes the more he loses his connection to the human race to the point where Laurie becomes disillusioned and unhappy with their relationship becasue Jon can no longer live a human life. It feels weird that, 30 years later, he has then developed the fullness of human emotion needed in order to not just love Angela, but to sacrifice what he is for her.

Is he making a sacrifice for Angela or is it for Laurie? He just got himself teleported to where she's being held.

[Crillam]

I don't think the average person, especially 60 years after the creation of Dr. M, and 30 years after he was last seen, understand the psyche of Dr. M. All they see are the potential powers, and that's what they want.

And the Millenium Clock is yet unexplained. I think it's tied to Ozymandias getting that horseshoe on Europa, though. Lady Treu has a statue of him, after all, and it's his former company. I wonder if they're setting up Jeremy Irons to be the big bad for season 2, with a new type of Dr. Manhattan.

I think Lady Trieu is walking in Ozymandias footsteps. He wanted to create something that would end all war, all conflicts. And he did achive that with the squid attack.
This is where the clock comes in. It will do something that will have the same effect on people. Atleast for a while. She was the one who created the nostalgia drug and we have seen the use of the "mindcontrol" lamp a few times now. So maybe the clock will combine those two in a way?

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A decade after he became Manhattan isn’t really “one of the first things he did”.

Also remember that Dr.M is like everyone else, sure he got superpowers but he is still in his own words "a marionette doll, but he can see the strings".
This last episode really showed us that. So maybe he didn't have a "choice".

[Relapses]

Final episode. Not sure what my thoughts are but I kind of regret reading fan theories now because none of the big reveals had the impact they would have had on a casual viewer.

Regardless, still a well done finale and ends on a decidedly open note. Since it was discussed a page back, I would say it's remarkably similar to the finale of The Leftovers. I'm happy though I don't think the finale hit quite the same heights as the episodes before it. (Episodes 7 & 8 easily standing out.) Overall, giving the series an 8/10.

And for those who care, my official Lindelof list is now: The Leftovers > Lost Seasons 2-4 > Watchmen > Prometheus > All other Lost Seasons.

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Westworld’s issue is it just isn’t very entertaining. The first season was good but the second? Bleh. I watched it and honestly can’t tell you what happened.

I agree, though I still enjoyed S2 personally.Episode 4 was brilliant. Overall it wasn't ~as~ good as S1 but I think that says more about how fucking amazing S1 was than it does the series itself. I'm curious where they're going with S3, especially with Aaron Paul in the mix (bitch!).

[Kathranis]

Well, overall I'd say it was pretty fucking great. Everything came together pretty neatly and I enjoyed that (most) of the characters had a role to play in the finale.

Kind of hoping they don't do a second season. There were some things that felt unresolved, but nothing strikes me as being immediately worth exploring in another season, and I don't necessarily want to delve more into the lives of Angela and the rest. I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to an anthology approach, but we'll see. I suppose if the FBI takes Veidt into custody, he'd probably be locked up with Dreiberg, so that could be interesting.

As a white guy, I could take or leave the whole white supremacist as bad guys plot

As a white guy, it doesn't really bother me that they picked white supremacists as villains (and I appreciate that Trieu was also a villain), and I actually like that it put a spotlight on the Tulsa Massacre. What does bother me was how one-note they became. They felt like a real threat in the first couple episodes but just became a farce, which undercut a lot of dramatic tension for me.

Cliffhanger ending was bleh.

Less a cliffhanger ending and more an ambiguous ending. At least, I kind of hope they don't follow up on it.

My ideal ending would certainly be that Manhattan's energy was released and that he'll reassemble himself at some point.

"Reassembling myself was the first trick I learned."

In which case Angela falls into the pool and, I suppose, his final message actually corresponds to something else entirely.

[Relapses]

Well, overall I'd say it was pretty fucking great. Everything came together pretty neatly and I enjoyed that (most) of the characters had a role to play in the finale.

Kind of hoping they don't do a second season. There were some things that felt unresolved, but nothing strikes me as being immediately worth exploring in another season, and I don't necessarily want to delve more into the lives of Angela and the rest. I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to an anthology approach, but we'll see. I suppose if the FBI takes Veidt into custody, he'd probably be locked up with Dreiberg, so that could be interesting.


As a white guy, it doesn't really bother me that they picked white supremacists as villains (and I appreciate that Trieu was also a villain), and I actually like that it put a spotlight on the Tulsa Massacre. What does bother me was how one-note they became. They felt like a real threat in the first couple episodes but just became a farce, which undercut a lot of dramatic tension for me.


Less a cliffhanger ending and more an ambiguous ending. At least, I kind of hope they don't follow up on it.

My ideal ending would certainly be that Manhattan's energy was released and that he'll reassemble himself at some point.

"Reassembling myself was the first trick I learned."

In which case Angela falls into the pool and, I suppose, his final message actually corresponds to something else entirely.

I'd say with all the symbolism of eggs it's not really up to interpretation. I guess since they didn't "show" her floating you can say it's a cliffhanger but I think it's pretty clear that Angela was imbued with his powers.

There are a few loose ends I'd like to see tied in a second season but I really don't know where they'd go with it. Where the fuck is Lube Man? (It's pretty much confirmed that it was Pete but it still doesn't really add up.) Why was the eldest son very clearly building an exact replica of the estate that Dr. M grew up in? What's going on with Trieu's momaughter? I'm fine if they keep at one season but something tells me that HBO is going to want to milk the franchise for all it's worth. I don't necessarily mind as long as Lindelof remains attached, but I can live without it too.

[Ausr]

Well, overall I'd say it was pretty fucking great. Everything came together pretty neatly and I enjoyed that (most) of the characters had a role to play in the finale.

Kind of hoping they don't do a second season. There were some things that felt unresolved, but nothing strikes me as being immediately worth exploring in another season, and I don't necessarily want to delve more into the lives of Angela and the rest. I suppose I wouldn't be opposed to an anthology approach, but we'll see. I suppose if the FBI takes Veidt into custody, he'd probably be locked up with Dreiberg, so that could be interesting.


As a white guy, it doesn't really bother me that they picked white supremacists as villains (and I appreciate that Trieu was also a villain), and I actually like that it put a spotlight on the Tulsa Massacre. What does bother me was how one-note they became. They felt like a real threat in the first couple episodes but just became a farce, which undercut a lot of dramatic tension for me.


Less a cliffhanger ending and more an ambiguous ending. At least, I kind of hope they don't follow up on it.

My ideal ending would certainly be that Manhattan's energy was released and that he'll reassemble himself at some point.

"Reassembling myself was the first trick I learned."

In which case Angela falls into the pool and, I suppose, his final message actually corresponds to something else entirely.

Wouldn't be surprised if they veer off and avoid mention season 1 in season 2, maybe having Veidt and Laurie appear to bring them together. Maybe show something that'll cameo Daniel (Nite Owl).

[eschatological]

I agree that the 7K became fairly one note, but I don't mind them as the villains. Watchmen always dealt with the contemporary issues of the day that threatened to tear apart our society, so race, to me, was fine.

I do like that Trieu was manipulating them, and she was in turn set up by Dr. M, who basically engineered his whole death.

I, too, am conflicted about how they continue from here. I'm not exactly sure how a series could continue with an Angela-Manhattan - it makes the tension way less. I'd actually almost like Hooded Justice to become Mr. Manhattan. I imagine they could do something about Ozymandias as a villain, and do a season like that, outside of Tulsa. Shows have done that in the past, where a season is encapsulated in one location, and then subsequent seasons are the fallout in other locations (Preacher comes to mind). I can imagine a season where the United States is in turmoil as the President is arrested and Ozymandias is on trial, and suddenly the relationship between the USSR and the U.S. deteriorates to the point of being on the brink of nuclear war. Also, as Redford is a liberal president, I can see a season where a reactionary, right wing President rises to power, and the new-Manhattan has to deal with the backlash which will surely be pinned on whoever-they-can-blame for literally two sitting U.S. Senators dying in this episode.


Favorite line of the episode from Hooded Justice: "You can't heal under a mask....wounds need air." I can't believe how much this character has resonated with me this season.

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There are a few loose ends I'd like to see tied in a second season but I really don't know where they'd go with it. Where the fuck is Lube Man? (It's pretty much confirmed that it was Pete but it still doesn't really add up.)

From an interview with Lindlelof tonight:

Readers will kill me if I don’t ask this: Who is, what is, why is Lube Man?

I’m so excited that you did ask. I would say Lube Man is one of those things that delighted us to no end in the writers’ room even though it was going to be just five minutes in the show. We talked a lot about who he was and where he came from and why he was dressed the way that he was dressed. But we were like: This is just going to be a scene in episode 4 that’s in the midst of other insane things happening. We did not expect him to resonate in the way that he has and we’re thrilled that he did. I will just direct the readers to the final Peteypedia entry. For those not familiar with Peteypedia, it is our ancillary materials written by mostly [Watchmen writer and former EW staff writer] Jeff Jensen and other writers as well. The Peteypedia will have its finale moments after the finale airs. I will not give you a definitive answer to your question, but I will say all the clues are there to reach the obvious conclusion.

[Biomega]

Favorite line of the episode from Hooded Justice: "You can't heal under a mask....wounds need air." I can't believe how much this character has resonated with me this season.

This is not sound medical advice. There's a reason we bandage wounds, and scabs form over them. Silly old man, medicine has come a long way in 100 years!

Jokes aside, I was overall quite satisfied with the show. One little thing that irks me, though, is Dr. Manhattan's attraction to Angela. What up with that whole thing? He suddenly decided he wants to live the simple life? That seems like a fairly drastic turn from what he was like in the movie, and there's just no real explanation for any of it. I don't buy the theory that the entire thing was just an elaborate suicide, there's way too much collateral damage for that. But then I guess he always was a womanizer of a sort so maybe there's no grand scheme at the core of it at all. Not very satisfying nonetheless.

I thought the racism/white supremacy thing was played very well in the show overall. The whole conspiracy around Hydra, err, I mean Cyclops, was maybe a bit on the nose, but it's a comic-book-inspired series so I guess that passes. They hit a good tone with it, though, and made it about very real mindsets rather than just some blatant caricature racism (well mostly anyway). The heavy hands at Disney & Co. can learn a lot from this about how to put important issues into your material but do it well.

[Biomega]

As was previously discussed, Manhattan experiences his past, present, and future as the same thing. He doesn’t really try to fight his “destiny” and goes with the flow. Part of that was his relationship with Angela and being “human” for a time.

That raises about twelve dozen times more questions than it provides answers. Dr. Manhattan still makes decisions, his frame of reference is simply a different one. "I'm doing A because I've already done A" sounds suitably obtuse, but reducing everything to a logical paradox gets old real fast.

[Relapses]

That raises about twelve dozen times more questions than it provides answers. Dr. Manhattan still makes decisions, his frame of reference is simply a different one. "I'm doing A because I've already done A" sounds suitably obtuse, but reducing everything to a logical paradox gets old real fast.

It's mentioned in passing that one of Dr. M's few weaknesses is his affection for the opposite sex. Yeah, it's a bit logical paradox-y that he ended up with Angela but for the theme of the show it worked. And episode 8 was really well done. I didn't really feel the emotional payoff in the finale but it was still there.

[Biomega]

Does he though? We’ve seen no evidence he makes decisions. As per his own words he’s a marionette who can see the strings. Which would indicate he’s not actually making decisions and just letting the puppet master do their work.

That's just rhetorical flourish, though. Even allowing for a deterministic universe and no free will at the quantum scale (which while not conclusively proven, is a reasonable assumption given current understandings of science) that doesn't translate directly to the macro scale. Now, of course someone like Dr. Manhattan would of course be very acutely aware of quantum-level determinism - hence the whole puppet speech. But that still doesn't simply create specific "destinies" at the macro scale. And even if it does look like that for him, that still begs the question for us as an audience. We want to know about motivations and decisions, because cutting every inquiry short with "it's like that cause it can't be any other way" is just not a very good storytelling device.

[eschatological]

This is not sound medical advice. There's a reason we bandage wounds, and scabs form over them. Silly old man, medicine has come a long way in 100 years!

Jokes aside, I was overall quite satisfied with the show. One little thing that irks me, though, is Dr. Manhattan's attraction to Angela. What up with that whole thing? He suddenly decided he wants to live the simple life? That seems like a fairly drastic turn from what he was like in the movie, and there's just no real explanation for any of it. I don't buy the theory that the entire thing was just an elaborate suicide, there's way too much collateral damage for that. But then I guess he always was a womanizer of a sort so maybe there's no grand scheme at the core of it at all. Not very satisfying nonetheless.

It's a metaphor for the trauma we put ourselves through as a society! I know it was a joke, but I just loved it.

Anyways, as to the second part, Lindlelof said in an interview tonight that Manhattan kind of understood his drawbacks. He was, after all, a watchmaker's son. He wanted to wind it all up, and see how it ran. Lindlelof seemed to express that that was a quality of John Osteerman and not necessarily of Dr. Manhattan, that Dr. M could be different. I think if Senator Keene or Lady Trieu indeed absorbed his powers, we would see how different they'd be. Lindlelof also said Dr. M understood that as long as he existed, he knew people would pursue his power, but, echoing with Ozymandias said, anyone meglomaniacal enough to pursue his power wasn't worthy enough to possess it. So Dr. Manhattan started looking for someone to pass it on to, and he manipulated the people trying to steal his power to simultaneously cause their own downfall, snuff out his power, and help him pass it on to someone else.

Presumably, Angela fits the bar of "someone else" who doesn't want the power, but has a strong sense of justice, which is why he walks into the bar in the first place. She believe in justice, and doing good, she has this world view of descending from oppression both figuratively, and literally as represented by Hooded Justice, her grandfather. Keep in mind, even though he experiences all moments simultaneous, he realizes that, on a linear scale, he didn't fall in love with Angela until the moment he was under siege and she was about to defend him, in 2019, 10 years after she met him. Also of note, HJ asks her "Did you feel what I felt when I put on the mask?" and she responds with "Anger?" and he says, "No, with fear...and pain." These notes, even the anger, are probably important for the type of Dr. M she plans to be.

Like HJ says, "Manhattan was a good man, but he could have done more." And I think Manhattan even understand that. That makes the egg trick in the bar even more relevant, because he knew it would come to fruition years later when he died and passed on his powers.

[Zaktar]

Great finish to a great series, a really worthy successor to the original. The acting throughout the series was superb, but this episode especially highlighted what a talented cast the show had. Lou Gossett Jr in particular nailed it. "I thought that too, but it was fear, and hurt." I hope they make more.

Does he though? We’ve seen no evidence he makes decisions. As per his own words he’s a marionette who can see the strings. Which would indicate he’s not actually making decisions and just letting the puppet master do their work.

That's exactly the kind of perspective Jon Osterman would have though, it's how he lived his life as a person - without making decisions. People made his decisions for him, and when he's imbued with godlike power he's no different, he is generally moved when other people move him. The end of the comic did hint at some growth, and this series continues that growth - it seems clear that this plan with Angela, Trieu, and the rest was him making an active decision - but that passivity he tended to exhibit wasn't the result of his abilities. When he says he's just a puppet who can see the strings, he's dodging the question he's being asked. If someone asked you why you did something in the past and you said, "because it happened that way," well that's a factual statement, but it's also evading their question isn't it. He still makes decisions, inasmuch as any of us do, he just happens to know what those decisions will be. The paradox kind of plays out in those moments where he tells a person something they'll share with him in the future, but is still surprised when they finally tell it to him.

Reeves very fairly points out that he could have done more, and the last episode begs us to imagine what more a person could do with those abilities. What a different person would do. Osterman didn't fail to act because of the powers he had, he failed to act because that's the kind of person he always was.

[AndreWright90]

This looks awesome! The film was great.

[fakaroonie]

Shitty way to end this. Lowering Manhattan to chimp-levels of power. For no reason.

[kail]

Ending was alright. There is a likely chance of a season 2 when this episode was labeled as a season finale instead of a series finale. It will likely pick up on Ozy's trial.

[eschatological]

Shitty way to end this. Lowering Manhattan to chimp-levels of power. For no reason.

I mean, he was contained in a field meant to contain him, out of a cage made of a banned material (probably banned precisely because it could contain him).