Why is this community considered "extremely toxic"?

[Headayke]

People would rather chase you down, expending cooldowns, potions, buffs, engineering items and quest items just to kill you instead of leaving you alone in a questing area. You are forced to PVP, regardless of where you go, what you do, who you play with or what class you play. That is toxic as fuck and the community has made it this way, you cant even afk in a neutral city for 2 minutes without a scum player camping you while the classic guards just sit there.

What a flawless and perfect 15 year old game thats not broken, not abused, not a cesspool of assholes, and is absolutely worth the bullshit and praise. /sarcasm

[Necromantic]

You could always play on a PVE server if that type of thing isn't for you.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Nobody said anything about "thinking it's fine" when you make a mistake. The point is that overreacting to somebody when they make a mistake does not solve anything. Those who like to blow up on people absolutely love to think that doing so makes things better and it doesn't. I have never heard anyone ever say "I was called a f**king noob and screamed at and it made me better" in a legit manner (someone once said it in response to someone else saying it but it was a sockpuppet).

You... YOU think there is no logical justification for the way I view things. I guarantee many will disagree with you on that.

There is no logical reason to put people down, call names, yell at people for making a mistake or trying to get better. You thinking (and at this point, I have a feeling you're just winding me up) that people respond better when someone says "stand on the f**king square, dip$hit!" instead of "when his mouth opens, you stand on the glowing square", you're delusional. The same message is being given but in a way that people are more apt to actually listen to.

As stated already, people make mistakes, even the best of us. There is no "logical" reason anyone should actually "feel bad" about making a mistake. Why should somebody have a negative emotion over your overreaction, just because you're incapable of controlling yourself? What is this awkward and cringeworthy obsession with making random people on the internet feel bad? That's what trolls do, not helpful people.

You picked up my post late in the discussion, we had already moved pass the name calling and exploding on people after a simple mistake, I already said I see no good in that either. What I meant by "feeling bad" about making a mistake is not in correlation to how others react to it, it's entirely based on your own performance, you should feel good when you make a nice move and feel bad when you fuck up, the same applies to everything in life, it's a normal feeling to not be happy about negative things you do, doesn't matter if people yell at you or not.

No I don't think throwing insult helps anyone, but I do believe that at some point if people keep accepting mediocrity and not improving, they deserve to be yelled at. Not because I think it will help, but because at some point others are allowed to express their anger towards lack of talent and time wasting, no one pays a sub to have other players kill ther fun by playing badly. Why should they sit there and be happy to see someone play terribly over and over? That makes no sense whatsoever, it's not fun, not productive, straight up unpleasant. I think we can all agree the game is far more enjoyable and everyone gets along much more easily when the run is smooth, right? The only thing that makes a run not smooth is continually making dumb mistakes. I truly believe mistakes are the primary source of toxicity.

[Necromantic]

You picked up my post late in the discussion, we had already moved pass the name calling and exploding on people after a simple mistake, I already said I see no good in that either. What I meant by "feeling bad" about making a mistake is not in correlation to how others react to it, it's entirely based on your own performance, you should feel good when you make a nice move and feel bad when you fuck up, the same applies to everything in life, it's a normal feeling to not be happy about negative things you do, doesn't matter if people yell at you or not.

No I don't think throwing insult helps anyone, but I do believe that at some point if people keep accepting mediocrity and not improving, they deserve to be yelled at. Not because I think it will help, but because at some point others are allowed to express their anger towards lack of talent and time wasting, no one pays a sub to have other players kill ther fun by playing badly. Why should they sit there and be happy to see someone play terribly over and over? That makes no sense whatsoever, it's not fun, not productive, straight up unpleasant. I think we can all agree the game is far more enjoyable and everyone gets along much more easily when the run is smooth, right? The only thing that makes a run not smooth is continually making dumb mistakes. I truly believe mistakes are the primary source of toxicity.

You still do not need to "feel bad" when you make an honest mistake, no matter if it's in real life or not. Now, if you commit a crime, you made a deliberate mistake and likely will feel bad if you have remorse. But if I accidentally zigged when I should have zagged... is not something somebody should feel bad about. That makes no sense.

Even if somebody does not improve, that's probably on them. They never deserve to be yelled at. That never helps anybody.

One of my kids has trouble when he takes tests. He does very well on school work but chokes and gets anxiety when he's tested on the spot. He can't help it. Yelling at him will not make that any better. There are other people like that too. Not everyone is a scholar. Not everyone is a prodigy. That won't stop people from trying but guiding them along goes much further than being deliberately and unnecessarily negative.

Nobody said anything about the group being happy about someone making a mistake over and over. Don't bring strawmans into this discussion, please. I know that people may make mistakes when I run a mythic. I accept it. If I am not able to accept that fact, doing mythics may not be the fun thing for me.

No different than the guy who posted right after me. On PVP servers, you will get those who go out of their way to make your day miserable. That's part of WoW PVP. If I didn't like that, I do not have to play on that type of server. Just like I don't have to play mythics if I don't like all the baggage that comes with it. In addition, if under-performing random players are not your thing, pre-made groups of all awesome players is another choice.

[Xar226]

Well, the community isn’t really toxic. MMOC forums are the worst though. It’s extremely toxic here.

Twitch as well. I regularly watch a non-Classic WOW streamer and somebody coming in with "eew retail who plays this shit!" is a daily occurrence. Like dude, if this isn't what you came here for I can help you find the X on your browser window. We're not obligated to like what you like. Or more likely, you came in explicitly to be an ass. And you wonder why I have such a low opinion of your community.

[CrawlFromThePit]

You still do not need to "feel bad" when you make an honest mistake, no matter if it's in real life or not. Now, if you commit a crime, you made a deliberate mistake and likely will feel bad if you have remorse. But if I accidentally zigged when I should have zagged... is not something somebody should feel bad about. That makes no sense.

Even if somebody does not improve, that's probably on them. They never deserve to be yelled at. That never helps anybody.

One of my kids has trouble when he takes tests. He does very well on school work but chokes and gets anxiety when he's tested on the spot. He can't help it. Yelling at him will not make that any better. There are other people like that too. Not everyone is a scholar. Not everyone is a prodigy. That won't stop people from trying but guiding them along goes much further than being deliberately and unnecessarily negative.

Nobody said anything about the group being happy about someone making a mistake over and over. Don't bring strawmans into this discussion, please. I know that people may make mistakes when I run a mythic. I accept it. If I am not able to accept that fact, doing mythics may not be the fun thing for me.

No different than the guy who posted right after me. On PVP servers, you will get those who go out of their way to make your day miserable. That's part of WoW PVP. If I didn't like that, I do not have to play on that type of server. Just like I don't have to play mythics if I don't like all the baggage that comes with it. In addition, if under-performing random players are not your thing, pre-made groups of all awesome players is another choice.

When I say "feel bad" I'm not saying people should start crying and breaking down. It should just do a little something inside that you know you fucked up, you get over it in less than a minute but it should be there to make you learn not to do it again. I think we just didn't interpret the "feel bad" the same way. I think we're just seeing all of this from very different definition. I never said people deserve to be yelled at and insulted the moment they make a mistake, that's your strawman. I'm not expecting everyone to play perfectly, I certainly don't, but I'm also not expecting people to fuck up 5 times in the same run. Sure there's gonna be a guy who does some weird disengage in an extra pull or forget to run out on a one shot mechanic or something, but if it's the same guy who does that every 2 pull, there's a legit problem and it needs to be adressed, again, not by throwing insult, but firmly telling him that he needs to wake up and get his shit together. That's not being "unnecessarily negative" like you say, that's being proactive about the situation, there's an issue, it needs to be fixed, and staying silently polite will DEFINITELY not fix it.

Of course it's also about context, like the exemple of your kid, it would do no good to yell at him while he's learning. I wouldn't yell at people learning new dungeons either. But in a M+ you're supposed to already know the basics of the game, like a college student should not fail an elementary school exam, you would laugh at them as well, it would be just as ridiculous as not knowing the right pulls in a dungeon.

And now we have to keep this in mind and go back to the original subject: what's toxic? There are some people in the game right now who is you talked to them the way you talk to your kid, they would consider that being toxic, they simply do not accept any help as they see it as criticism and it bothers them so much that they think it's toxic. Of course they are wrong, and that's the main issue that made me have these lengthy discussions here. There's a good portion of what people consider toxic that I believe is simply not toxic at all.

Here's a real life exemple:

(Quick background for context: that's the break between second and last round of a UFC fight from 2 weeks ago, she was losing the fight so her coach put some sense into her, she came out with a giant punch right at the beginning of the round, won the fight, and shit went viral about how being talked to like that made all the difference.)
You can see it in her face, she's feeling bad about the first 2 rounds not going her way, that's the kind of feel bad I'm talking about, not depressive suicidal shame quitting kind of feel bad.

Every few days in the game I see people being talked to like that or even softer and they lose their fucking shit, calling toxicity and "don't tell me how to play" etc you know what I'm talking about. Yet when this happens in a real life fight it is praised and everyone in that community is happy. No one said "that coach is being mean to his fighter", or "what a toxic advice". No. What he did is 100% good and should be perceived the exact same way in a video game. People who think that's toxic need to get their shit together, let go of their ego, know their place and accept the advice from better players simply trying to help them.

My whole issue is people not understanding what toxic behaviour really is and labeling every comment towards them as toxic instead of simple criticism. None of my argument involves throwing insults and calling people names and shit. Criticism is fine, people need to stfu and accept it instead of complaining about fake toxicity, and if that's not enough then just play good enough so no one will have to criticize anything they do lol.

[Necromantic]

I never said people deserve to be yelled at

they deserve to be yelled at.

I'm not expecting everyone to play perfectly, I certainly don't, but I'm also not expecting people to fuck up 5 times in the same run. Sure there's gonna be a guy who does some weird disengage in an extra pull or forget to run out on a one shot mechanic or something, but if it's the same guy who does that every 2 pull, there's a legit problem and it needs to be adressed, again, not by throwing insult, but firmly telling him that he needs to wake up and get his shit together. That's not being "unnecessarily negative" like you say, that's being proactive about the situation, there's an issue, it needs to be fixed, and staying silently polite will DEFINITELY not fix it.

It may not be negative, depending on how you go about it. You like to use vulgar language in your responses, so it's natural that someone would draw the conclusion that you chew into people. You may talk differently in the game, I really don't know. I'm vocal on forums and more quiet in game unless the opportunity for a quip strikes. However, if I make a mistake, I apologize for it and I've seen several do the same. Once in a while, you get someone who stays silent. Could be that they too are the anxious type, who knows. If they keep messing up even after you tell them how to do something, remove them. You have the option to do so. Nobody said to stay silent about it.

Of course it's also about context, like the exemple of your kid, it would do no good to yell at him while he's learning. I wouldn't yell at people learning new dungeons either. But in a M+ you're supposed to already know the basics of the game, like a college student should not fail an elementary school exam, you would laugh at them as well, it would be just as ridiculous as not knowing the right pulls in a dungeon.

For the most part, many would know the basics of each dungeon however, due to the entitled gaming generation wanting rewards and wanting them NOW, you can be given free purple gear, which puts you at the level to enter mythics without ever having stepped in some of the regular versions. That's a design problem which unfortunately won't go away.

And now we have to keep this in mind and go back to the original subject: what's toxic? There are some people in the game right now who is you talked to them the way you talk to your kid, they would consider that being toxic, they simply do not accept any help as they see it as criticism and it bothers them so much that they think it's toxic. Of course they are wrong, and that's the main issue that made me have these lengthy discussions here. There's a good portion of what people consider toxic that I believe is simply not toxic at all.

You are correct, there is a good portion that isn't toxic at all. Most of that is from a group that I'm not concerned too much with. Those people who you can't say anything to, no matter what. I know what pool they swim in... the new age, entitled gamer. It's this new generation that really kills me. Entitlement is at an all-time high, men claiming they're women and wanting to share the same bathroom as my middle school daughter, etc.

However,

Here's a real life exemple:

(Quick background for context: that's the break between second and last round of a UFC fight from 2 weeks ago, she was losing the fight so her coach put some sense into her, she came out with a giant punch right at the beginning of the round, won the fight, and shit went viral about how being talked to like that made all the difference.)
You can see it in her face, she's feeling bad about the first 2 rounds not going her way, that's the kind of feel bad I'm talking about, not depressive suicidal shame quitting kind of feel bad.

That kind of goes along with things like basic combat training. You go into that knowing full and well that's how they train you. It's the job of those coaches and drill instructors to do those things. They can hold you accountable. Random people on the internet cannot. It is not their job to do that.

Every few days in the game I see people being talked to like that or even softer and they lose their fucking shit, calling toxicity and "don't tell me how to play" etc you know what I'm talking about. Yet when this happens in a real life fight it is praised and everyone in that community is happy. No one said "that coach is being mean to his fighter", or "what a toxic advice". No. What he did is 100% good and should be perceived the exact same way in a video game. People who think that's toxic need to get their shit together, let go of their ego, know their place and accept the advice from better players simply trying to help them.

My whole issue is people not understanding what toxic behaviour really is and labeling every comment towards them as toxic instead of simple criticism. None of my argument involves throwing insults and calling people names and shit. Criticism is fine, people need to stfu and accept it instead of complaining about fake toxicity, and if that's not enough then just play good enough so no one will have to criticize anything they do lol.

As I said, you will always have "those people" no matter what, you can't say anything to them. Part of what I do for a living involves training. Years ago here, people use to yell and scream at new people for not doing well. After investigations, people were getting half-ass trained and the bosses jumped right to yelling instead of figuring out why they were failing. We've solved many of those problems that caused people to fail. If someone fails on their own accord, they're counseled, then warned in writing then terminated. We can part ways with the people who refuse to at least hit par where required. On the same token, we have plenty who feel "par" is far above and beyond (i.e. those people who feel you need to far over-gear content just to participate).

[ZazuuPriest]

my exp has been extremely positive, people who expect to have their hands held or to be fed readily available information are going to have a bad time

[arkanon]

Classic is better than retail but really far from Vanilla and TBC in terms of being toxic. But then again times have changed. In Classic I see a lot of Twitch chat emotes being spammed and trolls running around stealing chests, quest items, etc. People don't really help you and make conversation, they just want to do things fast.

I disagree, but I'm more interested in this "stealing" chest comment? How do you steal someone else's chest?

[CrawlFromThePit]

It may not be negative, depending on how you go about it. You like to use vulgar language in your responses, so it's natural that someone would draw the conclusion that you chew into people. You may talk differently in the game, I really don't know. I'm vocal on forums and more quiet in game unless the opportunity for a quip strikes. However, if I make a mistake, I apologize for it and I've seen several do the same. Once in a while, you get someone who stays silent. Could be that they too are the anxious type, who knows. If they keep messing up even after you tell them how to do something, remove them. You have the option to do so. Nobody said to stay silent about it.



For the most part, many would know the basics of each dungeon however, due to the entitled gaming generation wanting rewards and wanting them NOW, you can be given free purple gear, which puts you at the level to enter mythics without ever having stepped in some of the regular versions. That's a design problem which unfortunately won't go away.



You are correct, there is a good portion that isn't toxic at all. Most of that is from a group that I'm not concerned too much with. Those people who you can't say anything to, no matter what. I know what pool they swim in... the new age, entitled gamer. It's this new generation that really kills me. Entitlement is at an all-time high, men claiming they're women and wanting to share the same bathroom as my middle school daughter, etc.

However,



That kind of goes along with things like basic combat training. You go into that knowing full and well that's how they train you. It's the job of those coaches and drill instructors to do those things. They can hold you accountable. Random people on the internet cannot. It is not their job to do that.



As I said, you will always have "those people" no matter what, you can't say anything to them. Part of what I do for a living involves training. Years ago here, people use to yell and scream at new people for not doing well. After investigations, people were getting half-ass trained and the bosses jumped right to yelling instead of figuring out why they were failing. We've solved many of those problems that caused people to fail. If someone fails on their own accord, they're counseled, then warned in writing then terminated. We can part ways with the people who refuse to at least hit par where required. On the same token, we have plenty who feel "par" is far above and beyond (i.e. those people who feel you need to far over-gear content just to participate).

It may not be people's job to hold you accountable but it's everyone's job to perform at a minimum level expected for the level of difficulty. At some point there's a clash of skill level and the weaker one needs to step up or go back where they belong.

As for the "deserve to be yelled at", again that goes with context, someone who fucks up over and over after being told how to do things right, yeah they do deserve that, they basically asked for it. People don't deserve to be yelled at right off the bat, and then when they just keep being terrible at some point they do. What they don't deserve is to be treated politely forever because... because what? Because "it's nice"? Who gives a fuck. Step up, no one should expect to be treated nicely for doing badly, that's just backward thinking. You get what you deserve, praised if you're good, ridiculed if you're bad. There is NOTHING WRONG with that, it goes both ways, can't expect to only hear nice things when doing well and not a word when doing bad, that's not how it works at all, comments and criticism and opinions can be applied to anything and it's up to the target of handle that, not up to the speaker to sugar coat everything, of course leaving unnecessary insults aside.

[Necromantic]

It may not be people's job to hold you accountable but it's everyone's job to perform at a minimum level expected for the level of difficulty. At some point there's a clash of skill level and the weaker one needs to step up or go back where they belong.

As for the "deserve to be yelled at", again that goes with context, someone who fucks up over and over after being told how to do things right, yeah they do deserve that, they basically asked for it. People don't deserve to be yelled at right off the bat, and then when they just keep being terrible at some point they do. What they don't deserve is to be treated politely forever because... because what? Because "it's nice"? Who gives a fuck. Step up, no one should expect to be treated nicely for doing badly, that's just backward thinking. You get what you deserve, praised if you're good, ridiculed if you're bad. There is NOTHING WRONG with that, it goes both ways, can't expect to only hear nice things when doing well and not a word when doing bad, that's not how it works at all, comments and criticism and opinions can be applied to anything and it's up to the target of handle that, not up to the speaker to sugar coat everything, of course leaving unnecessary insults aside.

And they likely will go somewhere else if they cannot accomplish something. That or they will keep trying until they succeed. Unless Blizzard wants to implement some kind of punishment feature, they'll just re-queue. I know some would say that Blizzard does not want to implement punishing features, but their actions on the official forums would prove otherwise.

We can agree to disagree on yelling at people. I maintain that nobody needs to be "yelled at", especially by random people on the internet. Yell at me and I'll tell you what you can kiss. If they keep messing up, kick them. Plain and simple... or just keep playing with them and endure their repeated mistakes some more.

I still don't know how to read you. You partially claim that you do not condone being just an obnoxiously rude yet you feel people should be ridiculed? Why go through the motions of badgering someone? As mentioned, just kick them.


I guess everyone has their definition of toxic. I know I have mine. I'll take WoW over FFXIV any day. Nothing like entering a FFXIV dungeon with some guy with a glowing weapon and starting the dungeon with "ok, f**knut scrubs, lets get going!"

[Specialka]

Dungeons in FF 14 are piss easy. Even with repeated mistakes you can nearly solo it in some case.

A +10 is far harder and a +15 even more. At those level, you can't have repeated mistakes.

[arkanon]

It may not be people's job to hold you accountable but it's everyone's job to perform at a minimum level expected for the level of difficulty. At some point there's a clash of skill level and the weaker one needs to step up or go back where they belong.

As for the "deserve to be yelled at", again that goes with context, someone who fucks up over and over after being told how to do things right, yeah they do deserve that, they basically asked for it. People don't deserve to be yelled at right off the bat, and then when they just keep being terrible at some point they do. What they don't deserve is to be treated politely forever because... because what? Because "it's nice"? Who gives a fuck. Step up, no one should expect to be treated nicely for doing badly, that's just backward thinking. You get what you deserve, praised if you're good, ridiculed if you're bad. There is NOTHING WRONG with that, it goes both ways, can't expect to only hear nice things when doing well and not a word when doing bad, that's not how it works at all, comments and criticism and opinions can be applied to anything and it's up to the target of handle that, not up to the speaker to sugar coat everything, of course leaving unnecessary insults aside.

You have some serious growing up to do. You keep trying to apply workplace expectations to a video game. You continually demonstrate an extremely immature perspective of the situation, and lack of understanding of social norms in free time / social environments.

It seems clear you have never been involved in any team sports or activities outside your bedroom; "but coach, Karl made the same mistake 3 times so I'm swearing and yelling and screaming at him, isn't that what we are supposed to do?"

You have some serious control issues, and an overinflated sense of self worth - notice how in every single example you have given, page after page, in every single example it is you, the superior player, abusing and swearing at a lesser player. This tells me you believe you are one of the best players in the world, or you are so delusional you fail to understand players are probably frequently mocking your poor performance behind your back. Either that, or you only play in content far below your gear and ability to feel special.

No matter what the reasons or situation, you have demonstrated what a horrible and toxic part of the community you are, demanding that random strangers behave in a very particular way that meets your own personal standards, which is exceedingly arrogant.

[Aliven]

This right here is the problem with this game. Tolerance for mediocrity. You should strive to get better, not just accept mistakes as the average. Sure perfection is impossible to reach and even the best do make mistakes sometimes but the goal should always be to make as little as possible, not think "it's fine" everytime you fuck up.

There's not one logical or practical justification to your attitude, only an emotional one because you think people will get depressed if they "beat themselves up" over a mistake. They should feel bad because a mistake is something negative, but they should use this as a learning moment and an opportunity to get better, after that, when they do it right, it will feel good and satisfying. Your attitude simply makes you "not sad" from making mistake but there's no satisfaction, and very little (or just no) progress or improvement involved in this very slow learning process that makes people believe mistakes "just happen" and even a sort of "there's nothing we can do about it" mentality, which is just a lie.

Tell me a practical reason why people should not feel bad about making a mistake, otherwise what you just said is regressive thinking and not only serves no purpose but is even a nuisance as I can only see this result in reducing the quality of the playerbase.

Because it is not important. Mistakes are not important, you will do them, everywhere for the rest of your life. If you think you should need to feel bad when you make one say hello to depression and unrealistic expectations.

You should learn and deconstruct mistake. And try to avoid it. You wont but maybe it will happen less often. Accept it and move on.

Of course you should ONLY deconstruct your own mistakes.

[davesurfer]

The same doesn't seem to apply to the retail community and its the same game after all.

Sure it does.

[Specialka]

You have some serious growing up to do. You keep trying to apply workplace expectations to a video game. You continually demonstrate an extremely immature perspective of the situation, and lack of understanding of social norms in free time / social environments.

It seems clear you have never been involved in any team sports or activities outside your bedroom; "but coach, Karl made the same mistake 3 times so I'm swearing and yelling and screaming at him, isn't that what we are supposed to do?"

You have some serious control issues, and an overinflated sense of self worth - notice how in every single example you have given, page after page, in every single example it is you, the superior player, abusing and swearing at a lesser player. This tells me you believe you are one of the best players in the world, or you are so delusional you fail to understand players are probably frequently mocking your poor performance behind your back. Either that, or you only play in content far below your gear and ability to feel special.

No matter what the reasons or situation, you have demonstrated what a horrible and toxic part of the community you are, demanding that random strangers behave in a very particular way that meets your own personal standards, which is exceedingly arrogant.

Obv in a team game, if you make the same mistake over and over, you should resign and that should come from yourself for the good of your team. And in the long run, your team will make you understand that you are no longer welcome.

Obv, you never did team sports.

And your comments are funny as you keep repeating that ppl on Internet should not comment the action of others because they are strangers, etc.... Guess what that makes of your comments.

[CrawlFromThePit]

And they likely will go somewhere else if they cannot accomplish something. That or they will keep trying until they succeed. Unless Blizzard wants to implement some kind of punishment feature, they'll just re-queue. I know some would say that Blizzard does not want to implement punishing features, but their actions on the official forums would prove otherwise.

We can agree to disagree on yelling at people. I maintain that nobody needs to be "yelled at", especially by random people on the internet. Yell at me and I'll tell you what you can kiss. If they keep messing up, kick them. Plain and simple... or just keep playing with them and endure their repeated mistakes some more.

I still don't know how to read you. You partially claim that you do not condone being just an obnoxiously rude yet you feel people should be ridiculed? Why go through the motions of badgering someone? As mentioned, just kick them.


I guess everyone has their definition of toxic. I know I have mine. I'll take WoW over FFXIV any day. Nothing like entering a FFXIV dungeon with some guy with a glowing weapon and starting the dungeon with "ok, f**knut scrubs, lets get going!"

Well the M+ model doesn't exactly support getting rid of people who shouldn't be there. I do think if it was possible to kick people it would solve a lot of verbal toxicity but the same people who complain about that would now complain about getting kicked from every group they join. And I'm not sure it would really solve the problem. On one hand, to get better you need to play, not get benched, but at the same time, would getting kicked from several groups force them to focus up and play better? Maybe, but that goes back to the previous argument about yelling at people. I think kicking people from group is worse than yelling at them. It's easy to ignore words, it's impossible to ignore getting kicked, you're literally sent away and forbiden from playing until you get in another group. Not to mention the amount of groups made by 2-3 people together, would easily kick anyone they want to get rid off after the first mistake, that's even more toxic than calling someone a fucking newb. Actions are way worse than words.

As for reading me, let me put it simply: it's like a system of repeated offender kind of thing and it depends on the severity of the mistake. At first I give the benefit of the doubt, then as the mistakes repeat themselves, specially the dumb one, he will reach a point where he simply deserves to be called a dumbass. Specially if it's always the same, very costly mistakes like body pulling. The aggro range is a system that stayed pretty much the same since the beginning of time, outside of some exceptions mostly in raid, I do expect everyone to know pretty accurately what their aggro range is or at least where to walk to not aggro stuff. That doesn't even change through difficulty levels so there's no surprise anywhere. Someone who constantly body pull is, in my eyes, a very bad player, far bellow average, I think it's worse than doing half the dps your character is supposed to do at your ilvl, mainly because it requires ZERO EFFORT in order to not body pull shit.

So someone who constantly body pulls crap will get yelled at pretty fast. If it's smaller mistakes like not interrupting anything I probably won't say a word the entire run unless it's important stuff like heals or the 5 hour long cast on the add of Shrine's last boss.

Some mistakes are more "understandable" than others, like trying to dodge the dash of the first boss of Shrine when he split in 3, if I see someone not move at all and get blasted I'll be far more inclined to say something compared to someone I see moving to dodge a dash but his new position put him in another dash, yeah that's a mistake but at least he's trying, I get that.

Long story short, it's like a limit break, every mistakes have different values, they add up, when someone fucks up too much I'll reach a point where I think it's just ridiculous. I'll never outright throw insults, but I won't shy away from passive aggressive comments like "we must have killed this guy 5 times over with all the heals you let go through". I do often get called toxic for nontoxic commenets like that, but I'll be the first and probably only person in the group to apologize for making a mistake, cuz I believe the biggest fuck ups are far worse than the meanest toxic comments. Words can be ignored an the run can go on with peopel talking shit all night long, but if someone makes the group wipe all the time it pysically cannot be ignored and is objectively a mathematically proven bigger waste of time.

[arkanon]

Obv in a team game, if you make the same mistake over and over, you should resign and that should come from yourself for the good of your team. And in the long run, your team will make you understand that you are no longer welcome.

Obv, you never did team sports.

And your comments are funny as you keep repeating that ppl on Internet should not comment the action of others because they are strangers, etc.... Guess what that makes of your comments.

I played at a regional or national level in multiple sports, both team and individual, and have a degree in sports psychology. In a formal team environment, there are ability based grades - grading is done pre season, and you will be placed in a division the coaching team believe you match. If you are performing well, you may be moved up a grade, and if you are under performing, you may be asked to move down a grade. If one of my players started swearing and abusing another player over mistakes, he would be sidelined immediately, and reprimanded after the game.

That environment is similar to a competitive progression guild - and the situations explained translate quite well - this is why competitive guilds have structure - a hierarchy / pecking order. A guild with a strong culture would allow anyone to voice an opinion or idea, at the appropriate time, however they dont just have every tom dick and harry screaming over discord because the tank missed a taunt.

The real issue here is you are talking about low level PUG M+. So you are talking the equivalent of a random group of strangers throwing a ball around at a park - everyone is enjoying it - and you are the asshole screaming at the 11yo kid because he keeps dropping it.

[deenman]

Retail in my experience has a mindset of "git gud or git out of my game."

Classic in my experience has a mindset of "we're all suffering here so let's make the best of it."

Had a level 60 join our BFD group accidentally thinking it was a BRD group and was like "eh what the hell I'll go nuke it for you guys."

funny how peoples experiences can be so different,for me classic has been non stop "git gud or git out of my game." aka the meme macro spam of ''go back to retail'' wile on retail people get cut a lot of slack,my guild clears mythic every tier and we never have an elitist mindset,we carry people all the time

[arkanon]

funny how peoples experiences can be so different,for me classic has been non stop "git gud or git out of my game." aka the meme macro spam of ''go back to retail'' wile on retail people get cut a lot of slack,my guild clears mythic every tier and we never have an elitist mindset,we carry people all the time

I find this in all difficulties, but in particular, Heroic. People seem extremely willing to carry a couple of noobs - something we do on alt runs weekly. So long as bosses are dying, and people are getting some loot, its fine. Individual performance isnt important so long as everyone is having fun, and progress is being made. Obviously this is slightly different in a highly competitive environment, but again, people are talking about very casual +10 and similar. This is beginner content.