Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Reydan]

Luke is, according to the old EU, stronger than Vader. In the OT, he's just untrained, where Vader has a lifetime of practice and training behind him.

Luke has encountered and fought against the power of both Vader and Palpatine, the two strongest non-Luke Force users, even if you don't want to accept the old EU stuff about Luke.

And Luke states, flat-out, that Kylo is stronger than anyone else he'd ever known, and that Rey is Kylo's equal.

You can not like this fact, but it remains a canonical fact; Rey is the strongest Force user in the modern Star Wars timeline, tied with Kylo Ren. Stronger than Vader or Palpatine or Luke.



It still absolutely involved the use of the Force. They specifically state that no human had the physical reflexes to be able to handle a pod racer without crashing and dying in the first lap. Anakin, at age 6, not only can not crash, he's able to win. Because he's tapping into the Force. That's the only reason.

It may be subconscious, but he's still using the Force.



You're overselling the scene in Fallen Order by, like, a lot. It's probably the least impressive thing we see Vader do in that game. And regardless, yes, even Vader's power level isn't as high as Kylo Ren or Rey. That's a canonical fact, and you not liking that fact doesn't change it.

Old EU isn't canon so yes I disregard that. Also Rey and Kylo being stronger than Anakin or even Palpatine is quite laughable this isn't being shown anywhere so yes I don't believe this at all nor is it a fact.

Luke never said that Kylo is the strongest force user he ever felt he just said that he didnt fear his raw strength/power before and when Rey also showed that kind of power he did start to fear it. Fearing doesn't mean it's the strongest force power he ever felt tho, that's your interpretation.

Kylo is just a shadow compared to Vader/Anakin and that's kinda the point of his story imo.

Anakin is the chosen one yes he didn't live up to his real potential but neither Rey or Kylo can match him when he was Darth Vader let alone his potential. We can see this shown in the movies and Clone Wars if you want to be canonical.

So I don't know where you get your canonical facts from but they are wrong.

[Ophenia]

Old EU isn't canon so yes I disregard that. Also Rey and Kylo being stronger than Anakin or even Palpatine is quite laughable this isn't being shown anywhere so yes I don't believe this at all nor is it a fact.

Luke never said that Kylo is the strongest force user he ever felt he just said that he didnt fear his raw strength/power before and when Rey also showed that kind of power he did start to fear it. Fearing doesn't mean it's the strongest force power he ever felt tho, that's your interpretation.

Kylo is just a shadow compared to Vader/Anakin and that's kinda the point of his story imo.

Anakin is the chosen one yes he didn't live up to his real potential but neither Rey or Kylo can match him when he was Darth Vader let alone his potential. We can see this shown in the movies and Clone Wars if you want to be canonical.

So I don't know where you get your canonical facts from but they are wrong.

I guess someone somewhere said that to sell their new trilogy.

Just like Whoever will be the strongestest Force User ever seen in the universe in Episode X, just to find a worthy opponent who is strongestester in Episode XII.

The problem of that trilogy (Ep VII to IX) is that they didn't introduce them properly. We don't care that [insert random character/writer here] said [insert whatever Jedi/Sith] is the strongest. We want to witness it or understand where it comes from.

Here we have to accept Kylo as one of the strongest Force User in the whole universe, both past and present. Why ? Because we're told. So far his only feat was to be dumb as a rock and stopping a laser shot in the first few minutes of VII. And that's it, he never won any fight afterward, nor was he threatening to anyone/anything.

Rey is strong because she is strong. And she's the worst kind of Strong : The Boring Strong. The kind of strong no one can even match. She could face 20 Star Destroyers while flying in space and still defeat them without sweating. If your Hero doesn't have a counterpart, your Hero is boring (which is the biggest Superman's problem, or why Captain Marvel the movie sucked hard).

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Put ANY of the plot in spoiler tags. Even if it’s vague and small. It’s in the OP and mods have said to hide spoilers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sometimes comments like this are really so exhausing, because i need to explain things over and over and over and over and over again and again and again...

It's about that they decide to take rather a superman from a multiverse that maybe a few fans know instead of another of the many many superheroes in the dc universe that are actually black and be a better representative. Black Panter shows how this gets done. Instead they go full SJW, taking the name Superman, putting their agenda into a costume, and want to rise the SJW-Nonsense. And yes, it's canon, but really, it's simply about agenda, not about to take another multiverse where president superman is shown.

It's canon yes, but really, this is not about the multiverse, it's about their fricking agenda, and it happens all the time now. And that's canon it's just an excuse to make their agenda seemingly legit.

Sorry, but yes, it makes me angry and complain about it not because of the sake of complaining, but because there is actually an issue. But since it's canon, people fall for people who still want to make their fricking agenda somehow successful. But it isn't as we saw it with Charlies angels, Ghostbusters and so on. A good movie never works together with a fricking agenda. And destroying more franchises just for the sake of wokeness isn't the way to go.

And no, going political in a movie is not woke. Look at joker: small bugdet, gigantic success and lots of political in it. Ok, it's joker, even the name alone makes money, but it doesn't change the fact that the movie was excellent and joaquin phoenix was brilliant in the role.

There is no actual issue as your making up a narrative with out seeing any thing of the actual product. It’s apperntly impossible that any one would want to actually make a character they like into a movie just because you want some other hero movie. instead there just using the multieverse to push an agenda even though they are doing crisis on infinite earths right now and instead of filling it with minority supermen to push said invisible agenda they are using multiple white ones even though CW is supposedly the hight of social justice.

Your talking nonsense based off nothing.

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If RoS is a bomb, I expect the entire sequel trilogy to eventually get stricken from the canon. Its all the rage now. Make a new Terminator film, also strike the last 3 Terminator films from the canon. Make a new Halloween film, strike a bunch of Halloween films from the canon.

I would expect another version of episode 7.

Eh if they didn’t do it with the prequels when they had the chance I doudt they will now.

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Old EU isn't canon so yes I disregard that. Also Rey and Kylo being stronger than Anakin or even Palpatine is quite laughable this isn't being shown anywhere so yes I don't believe this at all nor is it a fact.

Luke never said that Kylo is the strongest force user he ever felt he just said that he didnt fear his raw strength/power before and when Rey also showed that kind of power he did start to fear it. Fearing doesn't mean it's the strongest force power he ever felt tho, that's your interpretation.

Kylo is just a shadow compared to Vader/Anakin and that's kinda the point of his story imo.

Anakin is the chosen one yes he didn't live up to his real potential but neither Rey or Kylo can match him when he was Darth Vader let alone his potential. We can see this shown in the movies and Clone Wars if you want to be canonical.

So I don't know where you get your canonical facts from but they are wrong.

“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben solo. It didn’t scare me enough then, it does now.

He doesn’t say kylo is the strongest ever but he does say he’s only felt such raw strength in Rey/kylo and Luke knows from tons of experience how stronger Vader was. Kylo/Rey might not have the extended material to actual show any of the strength but that doesn’t change that it is canon that they are stronger then Any one else luke met and anakin is a the top of that list.

[Vilendor]

Olalalala. There is something wrong when the hand selected and paid shills.... khm... i mean journalists turn against you after the premier.



(he is the Forbes's film critic)

[Endus]

Old EU isn't canon so yes I disregard that. Also Rey and Kylo being stronger than Anakin or even Palpatine is quite laughable this isn't being shown anywhere so yes I don't believe this at all nor is it a fact.

Luke never said that Kylo is the strongest force user he ever felt he just said that he didnt fear his raw strength/power before and when Rey also showed that kind of power he did start to fear it. Fearing doesn't mean it's the strongest force power he ever felt tho, that's your interpretation.

Kylo is just a shadow compared to Vader/Anakin and that's kinda the point of his story imo.

Anakin is the chosen one yes he didn't live up to his real potential but neither Rey or Kylo can match him when he was Darth Vader let alone his potential. We can see this shown in the movies and Clone Wars if you want to be canonical.

So I don't know where you get your canonical facts from but they are wrong.

As pointed out above, Luke explicitly says he's only seen power like Rey's "once before"; with Kylo Ren. He had plenty of experience with his father's power, so clearly that level is below Kylo's and Rey's.

You might not like that Anakin isn't King Shit in terms of Force strength in the canon, but that's the canonical truth.

[Kyphael]

I just read spoilers on reddit from someone who attended the premiere. Not posting any spoilers, just my own personal reaction, but comes off with a lot of fan service (yet not enough IMO), making it convoluted, but still has heart. Since the user was tired and just writing from memory, it was all out of order, jumbled and there were some head scratch moments but overall, it seems like it's worth seeing because it doesn't have Rian Johnson's paw prints all over it. Going to wait for a more concise summary on Wikipedia before I make the final call to see it in theaters.

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As pointed out above, Luke explicitly says he's only seen power like Rey's "once before"; with Kylo Ren. He had plenty of experience with his father's power, so clearly that level is below Kylo's and Rey's.

You might not like that Anakin isn't King Shit in terms of Force strength in the canon, but that's the canonical truth.

Disney just did that to promote their new characters over the old, obviously. How else would the grandson of the chosen one surpass the chosen one when he's half nobody? (Solo)

It happens all the time when trying to promote a new generation of characters.

"Gohan is MUCH stronger than Goku! He surpassed his father!"

Luke wasn't stronger than Anakin, not in The Force, that's what made Luke likable. He was easy to relate to, and well-written. The farm boy whose father was King Shit. Luke had a different strength to Anakin; he had heart, will power, good teachers, and learned from his experiences; he didn't go down his father's path. Luke didn't need to be stronger than Anakin to be an interesting protagonist.

Kylo? Disney can't write worth dick, so his defining character trait is "BY GAWD, HE'S EVEN STRONGERER IN THE FORCE THAN TEH CHOSEN ONE! That MUST make him interesting!"

[Endus]

Disney just did that to promote their new characters over the old, obviously. How else would the grandson of the chosen one surpass the chosen one when he's half nobody? (Solo)

It happens all the time when trying to promote a new generation of characters.

"Gohan is MUCH stronger than Goku! He surpassed his father!"

And?

That doesn't change anything. All that "Chosen One" stuff Lucas made up for the prequels was the same kind of nonsense, for Anakin that time.

Also, the prophecy never even said Anakin would be the strongest ever. Just that he'd bring balance to the Force. Which he did, by breaking the grip of the Jedi, and chucking the Emperor down a shaft.

Anakin was only unusually strong in the prequels, and only because Lucas decided to make him extra special powerful. It wasn't in the OT at all.

Luke wasn't stronger than Anakin, not in The Force, that's what made Luke likable. He was easy to relate to, and well-written. The farm boy whose father was King Shit. Luke had a different strength to Anakin; he had heart, will power, good teachers, and learned from his experiences; he didn't go down his father's path. Luke didn't need to be stronger than Anakin to be an interesting protagonist.

In the old EU, this was shown to be false. If we exclude it, we have no way to judge, to begin with, since Luke's strength in the Force is never really even discussed.

Kylo? Disney can't write worth dick, so his defining character trait is "BY GAWD, HE'S EVEN STRONGERER IN THE FORCE THAN TEH CHOSEN ONE! That MUST make him interesting!"

I wouldn't say strength in the Force is a character trait at all. It's like saying how much you can bench press is a character trait. It was never what made Vader terrifying, or what made Anakin's fall from grace interesting. It isn't what Kylo's arc is based upon in any way whatsoever.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Disney just did that to promote their new characters over the old, obviously. How else would the grandson of the chosen one surpass the chosen one when he's half nobody? (Solo)

It happens all the time when trying to promote a new generation of characters.

"Gohan is MUCH stronger than Goku! He surpassed his father!"

Luke wasn't stronger than Anakin, not in The Force, that's what made Luke likable. He was easy to relate to, and well-written. The farm boy whose father was King Shit. Luke had a different strength to Anakin; he had heart, will power, good teachers, and learned from his experiences; he didn't go down his father's path. Luke didn't need to be stronger than Anakin to be an interesting protagonist.

Kylo? Disney can't write worth dick, so his defining character trait is "BY GAWD, HE'S EVEN STRONGERER IN THE FORCE THAN TEH CHOSEN ONE! That MUST make him interesting!"

This is pure fan fic. Luke was absolutely stronger then Vader in the original canon he becomes the equivalent of a force god who can destroy whole ships and control black holes where Vader was beaten by a nobody like Starkiller.

The new Disney canon is a bit murkier but Luke is in the same general area of Strength if not stronger.

[Kathandira]

Had a thought the other day. If Palpatine caused Shmi's pregnancy with Anakin, wouldn't Palpatine be Anakin's father? If that is the case, then Luke and Leia are Palpatine's Grandchildren. That makes Kylo Palpatine's Great Grandson.

On the same note, if Rey is Palpatine's clone or offspring in someway, that makes Rey, Kylo's Grandaunt. And if they kiss in this movie....then that is kinda gross.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Had a thought the other day. If Palpatine caused Shmi's pregnancy with Anakin, wouldn't Palpatine be Anakin's father? If that is the case, then Luke and Leia are Palpatine's Grandchildren. That makes Kylo Palpatine's Great Grandson.

On the same note, if Rey is Palpatine's clone or offspring in someway, that makes Rey, Kylo's Grandaunt. And if they kiss in this movie....then that is kinda gross.

Yup that would be the case, keeping the family traditions alive the new kids are.

[Puupi]

Had a thought the other day. If Palpatine caused Shmi's pregnancy with Anakin, wouldn't Palpatine be Anakin's father? If that is the case, then Luke and Leia are Palpatine's Grandchildren. That makes Kylo Palpatine's Great Grandson.

On the same note, if Rey is Palpatine's clone or offspring in someway, that makes Rey, Kylo's Grandaunt. And if they kiss in this movie....then that is kinda gross.

A long time ago in a galaxy not far away at all - fucking your family was the norm. That's how we humans came to be.

[Kyphael]

And?

That doesn't change anything. All that "Chosen One" stuff Lucas made up for the prequels was the same kind of nonsense, for Anakin that time.

Also, the prophecy never even said Anakin would be the strongest ever. Just that he'd bring balance to the Force. Which he did, by breaking the grip of the Jedi, and chucking the Emperor down a shaft.

How does one weak with The Force, or at least extremely exceptional even in the eyes of his peers, bring balance to it by overthrowing the Jedi without being special in some way? While it's true that Anakin's power was never discussed in the original trilogy, it's because Luke was the protagonist, and Vader the villain. Lucas hadn't fully fleshed out Anakin's backstory, obviously, but given he was the one that hunted down and destroyed all of the Jedi as Obi-Wan tells us in A New Hope, it was a safe bet that Vader/Anakin was a force to be reckoned with. While treachery doesn't require power in most cases, to do what Anakin did does require great power.

Anakin was only unusually strong in the prequels, and only because Lucas decided to make him extra special powerful. It wasn't in the OT at all.

The original trilogy hardly had room to flesh out Anakin's entire backstory. It was Luke's tale, not Vader/Anakin's. Shoe horning it in even through exposition would have bogged down the narrative; OT was about a son redeeming his father's soul. Prequel trilogy was about telling the story of how Lucifer fell.

In the old EU, this was shown to be false. If we exclude it, we have no way to judge, to begin with, since Luke's strength in the Force is never really even discussed.

I have no knowledge of the EU so I'm really out of my element discussing anything to it. My knowledge extends to the movies and a bit of The Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network.

I wouldn't say strength in the Force is a character trait at all. It's like saying how much you can bench press is a character trait. It was never what made Vader terrifying, or what made Anakin's fall from grace interesting. It isn't what Kylo's arc is based upon in any way whatsoever.

It shouldn't be, but strength can be a character's defining trait if the character is 2-dimensional, that's the whole point. What else is there to Kylo other than his strength? Anakin's power wasn't his defining trait, because Lucas did at least somewhat flesh him out half-decently despite the cheese ball romance. Anakin was incredibly insecure, feared loss, became very emotionally attached due to having been raised by his mother alone, his whole world, and could not even fathom having to cope with loss. He was emotionally weak, but still had some redeeming qualities until his fall. However, what made him dangerous, vulnerable to Sidious' influence, and thereby also attractive to Sidious, was his great strength. Even if say Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Yoda were much stronger than a 20 year old Anakin, and they likely were, they were not at all attractive to Sidious because they weren't weak of mind. Anakin was INCREDIBLY powerful for his age and experience level, someone Sidious could easily sway, mold, and manipulate. That makes Anakin's strength one of his defining traits. It's part of what made the character tick and partly led to his fall. If he was some average ass jabronie Jedi, Sidious wouldn't have been interested in him, and Anakin wouldn't have been arrogant.

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This is pure fan fic. Luke was absolutely stronger then Vader in the original canon he becomes the equivalent of a force god who can destroy whole ships and control black holes where Vader was beaten by a nobody like Starkiller.

The new Disney canon is a bit murkier but Luke is in the same general area of Strength if not stronger.

Luke was stronger than a cyborg, old, past his prime, emotionally broken Vader. Yeah, no kidding, but Luke in Episode 6 against Anakin in Episode 3? I'd say Anakin would beat him.

I have no idea what you're talking about black holes, I didn't read any of the books and Disney deemed them all non-canon the moment they bought out Lucas.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Luke was stronger than a cyborg, old, past his prime, emotionally broken Vader. Yeah, no kidding, but Luke in Episode 6 against Anakin in Episode 3? I'd say Anakin would beat him.

I have no idea what you're talking about black holes, I didn't read any of the books and Disney deemed them all non-canon the moment they bought out Lucas.

Vader only got more powerful and more skilled post episode 3 as well as learning a metric ton more about the force luke would absolutely decimate episode 3 anakin who even the weaker obiwan beat.

[Kyphael]

It's not looking good - it's a shame because TFA was so promising - but I guess after the TLJ we should've known this trilogy was doomed. Disney should do the decent thing - declare the last 3 films non-canon, and take a break from star wars for a few years until they have writers, actors and directors who actually give a shit

To be honest, I'm still surprised people thought The Force Awakens was a sign of great things to come. It was pure nostalgia and introduced nothing interesting or any new concepts. They pretty much just revived The Empire out of nowhere with Vader-lite and checked all the boxes that Star Wars fans wanted checked.

Han and Chewie in Millennium Falcon? Check.
New Darth Vader that's not burnt? Check.
New female Luke Skywalker? Check.
A New Hope plot recycled? Check.

[Endus]

How does one weak with The Force, or at least extremely exceptional even in the eyes of his peers, bring balance to it by overthrowing the Jedi without being special in some way?

I don't recall Anakin's strength ever being the determining factor in what he did. It was a side effect, not a requirement.

While it's true that Anakin's power was never discussed in the original trilogy, it's because Luke was the protagonist, and Vader the villain. Lucas hadn't fully fleshed out Anakin's backstory, obviously, but given he was the one that hunted down and destroyed all of the Jedi as Obi-Wan tells us in A New Hope, it was a safe bet that Vader/Anakin was a force to be reckoned with. While treachery doesn't require power in most cases, to do what Anakin did does require great power.

Let's be clear; in A New Hope, Lucas knew basically nothing about Vader other than "scary dude with scary powers and a cool suit". The prequels makes Obi-wan talking to Luke about his father in ANH retroactively ridiculous. "Here's your dad's lightsaber. He, like, killed a lot of children with it."

While we knew Vader had to be "strong" in the OT, we didn't know "strongest there will ever be". That's never stated in the canon. You're making it up.

I have no knowledge of the EU so I'm really out of my element discussing anything to it. My knowledge extends to the movies and a bit of The Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network.

That still gives you no grounds to claim Luke is weaker in the Force than his father.

That's never established in the films or current canon, ever. I brought up to old EU because it was established, there, that Luke was the stronger of the two. You can pick between "dunno" or "Luke was stronger than Anakin". "Anakin was stronger than Luke" is a position that has no basis in Star Wars, whether canon or non-canon.

It shouldn't be, but strength can be a character's defining trait if the character is 2-dimensional, that's the whole point. What else is there to Kylo other than his strength?

His desire to live up to his grandfather's legacy.
His uncertainty about that path.
His need for control, and his inability to maintain it.
His need for companionship, after breaking all ties to his family.
His petulance and insecurity.

I could probably go on but I think I've made my point.

[Kyphael]

Vader only got more powerful and more skilled post episode 3 as well as learning a metric ton more about the force luke would absolutely decimate episode 3 anakin who even the weaker obiwan beat.

He became more powerful with the force but he was obviously nowhere near the duelist he was in his prime, even Lucas acknowledged this when he was making Episode 1. "This is the golden age of the Jedi, and you'll see that in the duels. This isn't an old man and a cyborg swinging light sabers around." Vader was powerful in the force even after he got maimed, but we never see him use it the way Sidious does, he still very much fought like a Jedi.

[Fayolynn]

Olalalala. There is something wrong when the hand selected and paid shills.... khm... i mean journalists turn against you after the premier.



(he is the Forbes's film critic)

It really is amazing that they managed to make a mess that someone like Mendelson is trashing it. I cant wait to see the backlash once the review embargo is over.

[infinitemeridian]

Why do people hate TLJ? It's the only SW film that actually has soul and wasn't a generic disney flick.

The only bad areas are the casino sections and the questionable decision to keep Finn alive.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He became more powerful with the force but he was obviously nowhere near the duelist he was in his prime, even Lucas acknowledged this when he was making Episode 1. "This is the golden age of the Jedi, and you'll see that in the duels. This isn't an old man and a cyborg swinging light sabers around." Vader was powerful in the force even after he got maimed, but we never see him use it the way Sidious does, he still very much fought like a Jedi.

Vader skilled up in every way post episode 3 and stopped limiting him self to the Jedi ways.

Here’s just one battle where he takes apart hundreds with out taking a scratch post episode 4 this included ships and tanks.



http://www.comicbookcritic.net/wp-co...Preview_31.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...7w0VDjvNENEary

This is all canon and there are many more fights which eclipse every thing pre episode 3.