You're Immortal - Must Travel Back in Time 1 Million Year - Would You?

[xChurch]

I know this is slightly off-topic but I'm curious if people think that if you went back to when very early humans existed, could you and your 50 people raise these other humans to our standard within their lifetimes or do modern people have to much pre-built education so to speak. This is something I've always been curious about and in this kind of scenario you'd be at least somewhat reliant on humans outside of your core group to truly build a civilization. I'd like to assume our brains haven't fundamentally changed in the 30000+ years humans have been around but how could we ever really know? It would be cool to think that once you ran into other humans that you could just teach them to do what you need but you'd probably be just as likely to get burned at the stake.

[Shadowferal]

Seeing as it's 1 million years in the past, I'd be more worried about surviving than building. Back then there were sloths bigger than vans. Giant land birds that could mess up a polar bear. And worst of all, primitive humans.

I just don't see the need for modern luxuries when you have all that bearing down on you.

Weapon tech will be needed.
A million yrs ago...you better not bring any pacifists or vegans along.

[cubby]

I know this is slightly off-topic but I'm curious if people think that if you went back to when very early humans existed, could you and your 50 people raise these other humans to our standard within their lifetimes or do modern people have to much pre-built education so to speak. This is something I've always been curious about and in this kind of scenario you'd be at least somewhat reliant on humans outside of your core group to truly build a civilization. I'd like to assume our brains haven't fundamentally changed in the 30000+ years humans have been around but how could we ever really know? It would be cool to think that once you ran into other humans that you could just teach them to do what you need but you'd probably be just as likely to get burned at the stake.

I think if you go back a million years, any proto-humans around wouldn't have the brain capacity to be taught "modern" innovations. It would be an interesting experiment, however, if that were not the case. If it were possible, would you be talking about someone already born and seeing if they could be taught modern ways, or would this be someone just born, a new baby. I would be curious if that would work.

I have to disagree, however, with your statement that the group going back would be reliant on whoever is back there to help truly build a civilization. I think the 50 people alone could do it, given the right equipment and prep. And 50 people have the genetic diversity to rapidly advance the population, while avoiding mutations and genetic defects.

[Templar 331]

I know this is slightly off-topic but I'm curious if people think that if you went back to when very early humans existed, could you and your 50 people raise these other humans to our standard within their lifetimes or do modern people have to much pre-built education so to speak. This is something I've always been curious about and in this kind of scenario you'd be at least somewhat reliant on humans outside of your core group to truly build a civilization. I'd like to assume our brains haven't fundamentally changed in the 30000+ years humans have been around but how could we ever really know? It would be cool to think that once you ran into other humans that you could just teach them to do what you need but you'd probably be just as likely to get burned at the stake.

More than likely they'll be in small tribes and scared at first. What happens after that I don't know. I remember hearing about how our ability to communicate vocally likely helped us take the lead against our evolving cousins. When that kicked in I don't know that either. The humans then might not be able to vocally communicate with us. And there's also the likelihood they wouldn't even try. There's probably a good reason why we're the only sapien that made it.

[cubby]

Seeing as it's 1 million years in the past, I'd be more worried about surviving than building. Back then there were sloths bigger than vans. Giant land birds that could mess up a polar bear. And worst of all, primitive humans.

I just don't see the need for modern luxuries when you have all that bearing down on you.

Modern luxuries would include things like .50 caliber machine guns, night vision goggles, and motion sensors. Those would be very helpful in fending off what you described (and holy shit about the sloths and birds).

[Shadowferal]

I know this is slightly off-topic but I'm curious if people think that if you went back to when very early humans existed, could you and your 50 people raise these other humans to our standard within their lifetimes or do modern people have to much pre-built education so to speak. This is something I've always been curious about and in this kind of scenario you'd be at least somewhat reliant on humans outside of your core group to truly build a civilization. I'd like to assume our brains haven't fundamentally changed in the 30000+ years humans have been around but how could we ever really know? It would be cool to think that once you ran into other humans that you could just teach them to do what you need but you'd probably be just as likely to get burned at the stake.

I recall reading a book with a similar proposition of a modern man having a meet and greet with a man from 500k years ago. And the "primitive" just couldn't grasp certain concepts. The brain (sic the mind) hadn't evolved that far along. (Now...30k...now we're talking...kinda)

Of course it was all hypothetical.
I don't think we'll ever really know.

[Templar 331]

Weapon tech will be needed.
A million yrs ago...you better not bring any pacifists or vegans along.

I was thinking that, but bullets run out and a rock to the head still hurts with a helmet on. There's also the probability that they have spears and atadels if they get brave or clever enough.

But more than likely they'll all die by the diseases we bring back.

[cubby]

I was thinking that, but bullets run out and a rock to the head still hurts with a helmet on. There's also the probability that they have spears and atadels if they get brave or clever enough.

But more than likely they'll all die by the diseases we bring back.

You'd have to bring a reloading kit, and the tools to build more bullets from scratch. It's all possible, so long as you survive the first decade or two. By that point you're either self sustaining or not.

[Kokolums]

Seeing as it's 1 million years in the past, I'd be more worried about surviving than building. Back then there were sloths bigger than vans. Giant land birds that could mess up a polar bear. And worst of all, primitive humans.

I just don't see the need for modern luxuries when you have all that bearing down on you.

It would be trivial to establish a fort to keep those animals out. Until the fort is built, a simple fire is gonna keep all the predators running away in fear of you.

[Thekri]

You'd have to bring a reloading kit, and the tools to build more bullets from scratch. It's all possible, so long as you survive the first decade or two. By that point you're either self sustaining or not.

It really isn't though. You are underestimating the supply chains we rely on to make any sort of modern tech. You might be able to get away with black powder, but not modern smokeless powder in cartridge ammunition. You need access to both sulfur and saltpeter to make black powder, and it helps to get really good deposits of those if you have to clean and refine it yourself. It doesn't help that those aren't found close to each other, so you need a huge footprint to do it. Then you need some sort of metal for the musket balls, which typically means lead (Really early firearms could use stone, but that sort isn't really going to help take down Sabertooths). So you need lead mines too.

All of this still only lasts you the first few years, until the firearms you brought start to break down. Then you need access to a lot more stuff to repair and replace them.
Like good quality steel and brass. In order to do that, you need access to iron, copper, zinc, and coal deposits at a minimum, in addition to the nitrates and lead you already needed. Then you need a rather complex industrial system for coke furnaces, steel manufacture, and of course the guns themselves. So to keep firearms feasible, you have rather limited time to get mining operations for at least a half a dozen minerals up and running, before your initial experts die off (Or are they immortal too?) This in addition to everything you need for food, clothing, clean water, shelter, medicine etc.

If you have to survive for a million years, and you aren't going to get any external civilized help for at least the first 990,000 years of it, you would have to be able to create and sustain that industry. 50 people isn't going to be enough.

So my suggestion is skip firearms and all modern tech, and bring people that know how to make recurve bows, atl-atls, and good stone blades. Maybe if you are bold try to go for copper or maybe even iron tools.

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You must select the correct 50 people. They must be:

1. experts in a scientific, engineering, textile or agricultural field.
2. humble and respectful (no confident punks).
3. industrious and hard working (not lazy).
4. people who don't gossip.

If you just grab 50 random experts, you'll likely get a bunch of jerks that bicker, argue, gossip and stab each other in the back. We're trying to BUILD something here, not have a crapshow.

I don't think you need experts at all really. You need a bunch of friendly, adaptable, survival minded types, that get along well with each other. The expertise can be provided by information you take in your allotted items. I recommend carving as much information as you can in granite, and ensuring each generation is literate enough to use those resources. 1 million years is a very long time, so make sure you have some way of preserving and recreating all that library of data.

A lot of the information isn't going to be useful for the first couple dozen generations. For instance you are going to want to include a lot of stuff about how electricity works, but you won't have the supply chain for it for centuries. Same for recipes for different types of steel, architecture designs and so forth. I would say stagger your technology levels, don't try to achieve everything at once. Don't make trains before you can make steel, because you can only bring so much steel with you. And iron mines take a lot of labor. Have later technology levels written down and stored for future generations.

Another thing to keep in mind is genetics. You really can't make 50 people work without some eugenics, as unpleasant as that is. 1 million years ago you are looking at Homo Erectus as the human population, and interbreeding with them for genetic diversity is an iffy prospect at best. You would be fine with Neandertals, but those won't come about for another 400,000 years. So you need to maximize your genetic diversity up front, then plan out your marriages for a while.

[cubby]

Interesting points. I love these kinds of discussions. I moved a couple of points around to address combined topics. Also, I have a big ask for you at the end.

It really isn't though. You are underestimating the supply chains we rely on to make any sort of modern tech. You might be able to get away with black powder, but not modern smokeless powder in cartridge ammunition. You need access to both sulfur and saltpeter to make black powder, and it helps to get really good deposits of those if you have to clean and refine it yourself. It doesn't help that those aren't found close to each other, so you need a huge footprint to do it. Then you need some sort of metal for the musket balls, which typically means lead (Really early firearms could use stone, but that sort isn't really going to help take down Sabertooths). So you need lead mines too.

I agree that supply chains are important in evaluating not only what you bring back with your team, but what your plan is for rebuilding society. I disagree with you about how far back in tech you would need to go, especially given the opportunities that 10,000m2x10m of materials will afford your proactive planning.

My solution for the firearms question that you raise, and it's a very good point, is instead of going back to black powder or swords, going very high-tech. Pick 1,000 guns, along with 1,000,000 rounds of ammunition. Those crates will take up a very small fraction of the allotted space. And will last upwards of at least 50 years. Include in the kit cleaning materials and spare parts, and there is no reason those weapons wouldn't last 100 years - especially if you bring the ones that are designed to survive in bad climates and last a long time. I would be curious on your take of that idea.

Turning back to weapons of the past, musket balls and saltpeter and black powder rifles, would just condemn the group to rely on those weapons, rather than any modern equivalents. You're right, the first 20-50 years are going to be all about building up relative supply chains for key materials and constructs.

All of this still only lasts you the first few years, until the firearms you brought start to break down. Then you need access to a lot more stuff to repair and replace them.

I think here advanced and "priceless" tech might solve the problem of items only lasting a few years. Especially with replacements parts. Your point seems to partially be based on the idea that things are going to wear out within a few years, and that's not the case, with proper planning. That's my perspective at least.

Like good quality steel and brass. In order to do that, you need access to iron, copper, zinc, and coal deposits at a minimum, in addition to the nitrates and lead you already needed. Then you need a rather complex industrial system for coke furnaces, steel manufacture, and of course the guns themselves. So to keep firearms feasible, you have rather limited time to get mining operations for at least a half a dozen minerals up and running, before your initial experts die off (Or are they immortal too?) This in addition to everything you need for food, clothing, clean water, shelter, medicine etc. So my suggestion is skip firearms and all modern tech, and bring people that know how to make recurve bows, atl-atls, and good stone blades. Maybe if you are bold try to go for copper or maybe even iron tools.

If you have to survive for a million years, and you aren't going to get any external civilized help for at least the first 990,000 years of it, you would have to be able to create and sustain that industry. 50 people isn't going to be enough.

No one is immortal except [you] (whomever says "yes" to the question, so to speak). Experts will die off normally, through age or injury.

To me it was never a matter of surviving until "civilized" help catches up in 990,000 years. If the group that goes back doesn't make it past 100 years they aren't going to make it at all. If they don't have 1890's industry up and going by then, it probably isn't going to happen.

50 people may not be enough, though. I hadn't considered fully how many people it might take to really dig in. Not just covering the basics of necessary skill sets, but the labor pool to build up what they will need to survive indefinitely. 500? What do you think?

I don't think you need experts at all really. You need a bunch of friendly, adaptable, survival minded types, that get along well with each other. The expertise can be provided by information you take in your allotted items. I recommend carving as much information as you can in granite, and ensuring each generation is literate enough to use those resources. 1 million years is a very long time, so make sure you have some way of preserving and recreating all that library of data.

A lot of the information isn't going to be useful for the first couple dozen generations. For instance you are going to want to include a lot of stuff about how electricity works, but you won't have the supply chain for it for centuries. Same for recipes for different types of steel, architecture designs and so forth. I would say stagger your technology levels, don't try to achieve everything at once. Don't make trains before you can make steel, because you can only bring so much steel with you. And iron mines take a lot of labor. Have later technology levels written down and stored for future generations.

I agree that the group would need to bring schematics for things that won't be possible for awhile (computers, rebooting digital society), but I'm curious why you say that something like electricity would be centuries away. The supply chain issue is paramount, but I think there would be ways of circumnavigating and shortcuting some of those.

Another thing to keep in mind is genetics. You really can't make 50 people work without some eugenics, as unpleasant as that is. 1 million years ago you are looking at Homo Erectus as the human population, and interbreeding with them for genetic diversity is an iffy prospect at best. You would be fine with Neandertals, but those won't come about for another 400,000 years. So you need to maximize your genetic diversity up front, then plan out your marriages for a while.

I hadn't any intention of breeding with the current Homo crowd - I agree with your point that it would be iffy at best, not to mention the actual mechanics of it. My plan was always to breed within the group to build the population, centering around non-familial family types. More of a commune-ish version of education, development, and upbringing.

But the more I think about it the more I think you're right. 50 people isn't enough.

So my question: if you had to do it, and you've already hinted at this above, how would you do it, and how do you see it developing.

[fakaroonie]

48 very beautiful girls, 1 guy to make them more beautiful girls. And 1 mechanical engineer with all his necessary tools that will spend his life building the framework. All the men put to work.
I won't procreate in the beggining.
I'll be an immortal god.
There will be 1 city that will cover the planet.
We will aim to conquer the stars.
In 1 million years we will have reached near solar systems and populated them.

[Twdft]

And yeah, they will need to all get along, have the same purpose of mission, the same long-term goals.

They will also have to fuck on schedule with different partners, all the women will be pregnant for the next 20 years and still work. Getting the right 50 people might very well be the hardest part of the mission.

Btw, some people here wrote about coal and oil. If you want to jump start civilisation from a clean slate maybe try not to burn stuff. Get somewhre with good rivers and build dams. Georgia (the country in Europe) has more than 80% hydropower right now, be like them.

48 very beautiful girls, 1 guy to make them more beautiful girls. And 1 mechanical engineer with all his necessary tools that will spend his life building the framework. All the men put to work.

Read this again and think about it for a minute... all the men... are... 2 :-)

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think here advanced and "priceless" tech might solve the problem of items only lasting a few years. Especially with replacements parts. Your point seems to partially be based on the idea that things are going to wear out within a few years, and that's not the case, with proper planning. That's my perspective at least.

You can't beat entropy. Even if you bring the most high tech devices back with you, besides the fact that depending on the machine they might need external circumstances to operate properly (controlled enviroments), you can pretty much bet on high prescision tech also needing high prescision maintenance. In companies that work with measuring equipment of any kind and that have to attest any semblance of quality you pretty much collect everything from calipers to your 50k oscilloscope in regular intervals to have them be recalibrated and recertified. Likewise machines need to be recalibrated and serviced, many parts of industrial machinery are wearing parts that need to be replaced after so many hours of operation.

Also alot of people here seem to underestimate how much modern electricity relies on a solid chemical foundation.

[deepr]

No, too much of a hassle.
If I could trade equipment/resources and personnel for the superpower of (very fast) flying, I would.
So I could just fly around and check out the entire planet as it was 1 million years ago, without having to worry about anything, since nothing can kill me (no need to eat either).
That would be nice, for a while... ok, maybe I'd like to bring a phone/mp3 player so I can listen to some music in the meantime.
Then when I'm finally bored I'd simply end myself.

[czarek]

Thats so wrong. "You're Immortal - Must Travel Back in Time 1 Million Year - Would You?" Would I if i have to ? This make no sense xD if i must i must i cant refuse. There is no other option.

[Thekri]

So my question: if you had to do it, and you've already hinted at this above, how would you do it, and how do you see it developing.

Well up front, I wouldn't. The complexities of this sort of thing are staggering, and it risks destroying the planet we are on. It doesn't really have any potential upsides to anyone except me personally. Still, as a thought experiment it is sort of interesting.

So the idea behind starting with copper age tech is because of the amount of labor that is required to acquire all the raw materials needed for modern tech, and process them all. 50 people doesn't put a dent in that, 500 won't either. Mining operations typically only extract a single type of material, and they require a couple hundred people to run efficiently.

Yes, you could start with a nice stockpile of modern tech. You might keep it operational for 2 centuries or so. That is completely insignificant for the time period we are discussing, you would have been better served building technology that is sustainable. Bringing some modern tech is a good idea, but don't rely on it for much.

So here is how I would break it down: Choose the first 50 based on genetic diversity and social compatibility. All of them need to be healthy, resilient, and adaptable individuals. A good education is a plus, but not essential. I considered going for a larger percentage of females then males, to maximize population growth, but I think you would be better off keeping 25 different Y Chromosones in play, so I would go 25 each and pair them off. Strong familial and tribal ties are important to survival either way. They all need to speak a single language, preferably something without the complexities of modern English. Latin would be fine. They all need to be literate, and literacy for each generation will be vital.

For things to take. The most important thing is going to be essentially a massive instruction manual. It is going to contain instructions on everything from metallurgy to heart surgery to orbital physics. Each one is going to have criteria before it is available to be read, the criteria for the next phase will be known, but the contents won't be (Past the first generation of course). So for instance, a generation might have the goal of discovering Iron, and integrating Iron into their supply chain. They will have access to everything they need to know about finding, mining and working Iron, but they don't need to bother with Steel until they have a steady supply.

The instruction manual needs to be on something that will last a very long time. Probably as much of it as possible needs to be etched in granite and stored underground. Move parts of it around when you can so it doesn't get wrecked by earthquakes and volcanos in one go. You want tiered sustainable growth, not a bunch of overpowered relic that can never be replaced. Modern tech only came about after global trade systems enabled access to a huge range of materials, that could be shipped relatively cheaply.

The next step is to create a religion. I am not a huge fan of religion now, but ancient tribal life styles is what they excel at in the first place. Everything around that code of instructions and yourself (As the immortal ruler of this group) needs to be codified in a religion. Make it how you like, but it needs to be universal in your community for a long time. This setup is no place for a democracy, people need a common world view and sense of values to make any of this work.

Finally, understand you are here for the VERY long haul. Actual human civilization has only been around 10,000 years, give or take. You are attempting to go 100 longer just to catch up. Everything we have seen in history you are going to see again in this period, because human nature remains mostly constant. You are going to see rebellions, tyrants, dictators, new religions, inventions you never considered. You can't control all this, at least not completely. They will overthrow any system you set up, because humans have free will. You may be immortal, but there is a decent chance some asshole buries you in concrete and uses you as an idol to prop up his dynasty's own political power for a few generations.

Understand that the sort of major changes we are used to pale in comparison to the sort of things that happen in a million years. The Yellowstone super volcano will explode twice in that time period. When you start, Antarctica is still going be a polar rainforest, and Greenland is going to be lush and green. Sea levels are going to fluctuate a lot, glaciers are going to come and go. Your starting population of humans is going to evolve over time, just as Homo Erectus did. Your social policies are going to determine how they evolve.

When 2000 BC finally comes around, it won't be some sort of milestone. By then you will have changed the earth so much, modern civilization will definitely not start the same way. Home Erectus will not have evolved into Homo Sapiens in the presence of a more advanced human race, so whatever civilization you started with is all you have. You will have to determine your policy toward these other human species, and I would worry that leads to a very dark future with different tiers of humans integrated into society as non-equals. You really would have a "Master Race" and a intellectually inferior slave race. Maybe multiple ones, if you didn't kill off the competition like Homo Sapiens historically did (Well, and also interbred with them). These are some of the very disturbing consequences I talked about, and why I would definitely not do it. You aren't going to remain in control for 1 million years straight, you aren't going to stop them when some separatist warlord breaks off your faction, conquers Europe, and enslaves the Neandertals.

[cubby]

They will also have to fuck on schedule with different partners, all the women will be pregnant for the next 20 years and still work. Getting the right 50 people might very well be the hardest part of the mission.

Btw, some people here wrote about coal and oil. If you want to jump start civilisation from a clean slate maybe try not to burn stuff. Get somewhre with good rivers and build dams. Georgia (the country in Europe) has more than 80% hydropower right now, be like them.

I agree overall that hydroelectric power might be the long term power solution for the society. How many generations would it take to have 100,000 people?

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You can't beat entropy. Even if you bring the most high tech devices back with you, besides the fact that depending on the machine they might need external circumstances to operate properly (controlled enviroments), you can pretty much bet on high prescision tech also needing high prescision maintenance. In companies that work with measuring equipment of any kind and that have to attest any semblance of quality you pretty much collect everything from calipers to your 50k oscilloscope in regular intervals to have them be recalibrated and recertified. Likewise machines need to be recalibrated and serviced, many parts of industrial machinery are wearing parts that need to be replaced after so many hours of operation.

Also alot of people here seem to underestimate how much modern electricity relies on a solid chemical foundation.

You make a very valid point. The high end machines that a modern society counts on require enormous supply chains to service. Which we obviously won't have.

The chemical issue is one I honestly hadn't thought about, at all, until this thread was started.

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You can't beat entropy. Even if you bring the most high tech devices back with you, besides the fact that depending on the machine they might need external circumstances to operate properly (controlled enviroments), you can pretty much bet on high prescision tech also needing high prescision maintenance. In companies that work with measuring equipment of any kind and that have to attest any semblance of quality you pretty much collect everything from calipers to your 50k oscilloscope in regular intervals to have them be recalibrated and recertified. Likewise machines need to be recalibrated and serviced, many parts of industrial machinery are wearing parts that need to be replaced after so many hours of operation.

Also alot of people here seem to underestimate how much modern electricity relies on a solid chemical foundation.

You make a very valid point. The high end machines that a modern society counts on require enormous supply chains to service. Which we obviously won't have.

The chemical issue is one I honestly hadn't thought about, at all, until this thread was started.

[Thekri]

I agree overall that hydroelectric power might be the long term power solution for the society. How many generations would it take to have 100,000 people?

You don't need to worry about power for a very long time. Hydro-electric power still requires Turbines to work. Turbines require a pretty high level of technology and infrastructure, more then you will have with 100,000 total population.

As far as how many generations to 100,000, that depends on 1) How much food you can provide. 2) What does your infant mortality/Maternal mortality rate look like.

Both are major issues. Typically about 80-90% of all human labor has gone into food production, before modern agriculture. You won't have access to modern fertilizers, modern farming equipment, pesticides, or antibiotics. So you are seriously limited in your food production. Which is where most of the manpower is going to go, not into iron mines, coal mines, and everything else you need to run an industrial society.

As far as maternal and infant mortality, same sort of problems. You don't have access to modern medicines, but you do have access to modern medical knowledge, so it should be better then historical rates, but lower then modern rates.

[Kokolums]

You don't need to worry about power for a very long time. Hydro-electric power still requires Turbines to work. Turbines require a pretty high level of technology and infrastructure, more then you will have with 100,000 total population.

As far as how many generations to 100,000, that depends on 1) How much food you can provide. 2) What does your infant mortality/Maternal mortality rate look like.

Both are major issues. Typically about 80-90% of all human labor has gone into food production, before modern agriculture. You won't have access to modern fertilizers, modern farming equipment, pesticides, or antibiotics. So you are seriously limited in your food production. Which is where most of the manpower is going to go, not into iron mines, coal mines, and everything else you need to run an industrial society.

As far as maternal and infant mortality, same sort of problems. You don't have access to modern medicines, but you do have access to modern medical knowledge, so it should be better then historical rates, but lower then modern rates.

infant mortality i believe was mostly due to poor understanding of cleanliness. the amish used to have far lower infant mortality rate than the general population but they are a meticulously clean people. every home is spotless and they regularly kept washing clothes, towels, etc. it took a while for the rest of society to catch up.