Warchief Baine

[mickybrighteyes]

He's massively over-hated on these forums but still, Baine for warchief? That'd be like renaming Anduin to Bloodlord Deathking Anduin.

Those are meager titles compared to what Anduin is capable of achieving... maybe they will finally go full Warhammer and turn Anduin into a carbon copy of this:


Dare I say it... for the emperor?

[Alvito]

At least Baine is honest with his allegiances.

Not really. He is wishy washy and only acts when he can avoid blame or accountability. He is one of the worst and most spineless mocs around a empty husk of his father.

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I'd rather follow a noble land honorable eader than a corrupted one. You may not like him, but Baine is the only one showing that war is not always the answer and that there are different ways to solve the problems.

He sure went along with war and was a spineless yes man an awful lot to believe that nonsense.

[Sezh]

This is what the railroading of the story wants us to think..

But when those enemies are the Alliance... Baine doesn't seem to help the horde except unwillingly.

Why do you think Gann Stonespire had no real back up when he was attacking Bael Modan? What was Baine's position on the Baeldun invaders? What did Baine do to his people who tried to defend themselves from invading Alliance forces?

If the horde is acting against the Alliance, Baine has historically dropped everything to RUN to make sure the Alliance is informed and things are laid out for them. Otherwise he sits on his ass trying to look better than other horde options making things retarded for his own people.

I don't know if you're refering to some book or cataclysm questing or whatever. And Blizz likes to forget about characters between using them to fulfill very specific roles. I'm not even saying I like Baine, but when it comes to his story in BFA, he does represent the values of Thrall's horde. That's the purpose of his character, and that's what he does as written by Blizzard. Plain and simple.

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Baine is always figthing the horde then, cause even before sylvanas he was a peacemonger who care more about the alliance than his own people, like with the exile event, he is a disgrace of character who don't come near close to his father.

I'm not invested enough in the current story to argue semantics with you, but my general assessment stands. He does represent the values of Thrall's horde as perceived by Blizzard.

[Verdugo]

I'm not invested enough in the current story to argue semantics with you, but my general assessment stands. He does represent the values of Thrall's horde as perceived by Blizzard.

And we give a shit about what Blizzard intended... why?

Those are meager titles compared to what Anduin is capable of achieving... maybe they will finally go full Warhammer and turn Anduin into a carbon copy of this:


Dare I say it... for the emperor?

You mean an actualy flawed character whose mistakes turned him into a corpse on a life support?

[Sezh]

And we give a shit about what Blizzard intended... why?

You don't, that's fine. Despite maybe failing to portray things perfectly and forgetting about the character in some old content etc. what Blizzard is going for is having Baine be the vessel for the ideals and values Thrall imposed upon his Horde, if you take a step back and look at his story in BFA, that's just obvious. So since I'm not emotionally invested in any of these characters, if the question is "Is the character written to be the vessel for the ideals and values of the current horde a fit leader for the current horde" then my answer is yes.

[Aresk]

.... nevermind he has never acted with respect to the horde in the scope that the game has shown.

Yeah, he never has acted with Horde interests at heart. Getting Thunder Bluff back for his people from an usurper was not in tauren best interest. Defending the Warchief when Garrosh foolishly rushed into a Quillboar encampment and almost died definitely wasn't to Horde benefit. Defending said Warchief again in the trial was very anti-Horde. Recruiting the Highmountain into the Horde definitely made it weaker. Organizing the defending forces and fighting the Alliance at Lordaeron was secretly in Alliance best interest. Coordinating Horde events in Zuldazar didn't help Horde interests at all or help stop Zul's insurgency.

Baine's far from perfect, but saying he has never acted with respect to the Horde is blatantly false. I don't see how he's any more anti-Horde than Jaina is anti-Alliance.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not invested enough in the current story to argue semantics with you, but my general assessment stands.

what semantics? dude only fight for the horde when he is obligated to

He does represent the values of Thrall's horde as perceived by Blizzard.

what are the values of the thrall's horde perceived by blizzard exactly? we had like 4, with constantly flip-flopping of what they want to do with the horde

but if you are talking about thrall's horde, you maybe are talking about w3-wtlk era, how exactly Baine represent that? of course thrall tried to do peace by all means, and even did some stupid decisions, but he was never a fool or a retarded to preach for the alliance over his own people

why do you think Thrall never gave order to the Warsong leave ashenvale? because the horde needed the resources, Baine would take everyone out to not hurt the alliance feelings and let his people die by starvation, Something Cairne never would do

Still within the tauren, Baine would died by the centaurs and Quilboars, because he would want peace with then, unlike his father, thats why the quilboars were such a problem in his reign

We have to face things, Baine was not an awful character but they did so, now he is,unbearable, in his entire life his most know accomplishments are literally going against his own faction, by exiling your own people, by warning your enemy about your attack, by plotting and conspiring against your warchief and so on

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Getting Thunder Bluff back for his people from an usurper was not in tauren best interest.

tbf, Maghata would be way better for the tauren best interests here, a strong and decided leader

Defending the Warchief when Garrosh foolishly rushed into a Quillboar encampment and almost died definitely wasn't to Horde benefit

not like he rly wanted to, and Garrosh was trying to resolve the problem that Baine refused to adress

Defending said Warchief again in the trial was very anti-Horde.

pro-horde it wasn't, since he wasn't warchief anymore

Organizing the defending forces and fighting the Alliance at Lordaeron was secretly in Alliance best interest

.

unwilling

Coordinating Horde events in Zuldazar didn't help Horde interests at all

mostly unwilling,a nd mostly for the zandalari, not rly "for the horde"

help stop Zul's insurgency

.
he actually did that? i barely remember him

Baine's far from perfect, but saying he has never acted with respect to the Horde is blatantly false. I don't see how he's any more anti-Horde than Jaina is anti-Alliance.

as far as i know Jaina never exiled her own people, never warned the horde of an alliance attack, so on.

[Sezh]

what semantics? dude only fight for the horde when he is obligated to

It's almost as if the dude is only written into the story by Blizzard when they want him to fulfill a certain role and represent a certain set of ideals. You can make arguments like this for every character. Would you argue that Khadgar wants the entire world to die and is clearly a monstrous psychopath because he hasn't been active during BFA? That has to mean he's an N'zoth apologist, no?

what are the values of the thrall's horde perceived by blizzard exactly?

Non-racism, pragmatism in the face of extreme adversity and a "the end doesn't always justify the means"-policy

Still within the tauren, Baine would died by the centaurs and Quilboars, because he would want peace with then, unlike his father, thats why the quilboars were such a problem in his reign

This here is semantics I cannot argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about, this wasn't in BFA and I don't remember detailed quest texts from earlier expansions or whatnot. I'm just talking about the character Blizzard wants Baine to be in the context of the current story, and that is a vessel for the ideals and values of Thrall's horde. I won't say they succeed on every plane with that goal, but at least the goal is clear and obvious.

[Super Dickmann]

It's almost as if the dude is only written into the story by Blizzard when they want him to fulfill a certain role and represent a certain set of ideals. You can make arguments like this for every character. Would you argue that Khadgar wants the entire world to die and is clearly a monstrous psychopath because he hasn't been active during BFA? That has to mean he's an N'zoth apologist, no?


Non-racism, pragmatism in the face of extreme adversity and a "the end doesn't always justify the means"-policy



This here is semantics I cannot argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about, this wasn't in BFA and I don't remember detailed quest texts from earlier expansions or whatnot. I'm just talking about the character Blizzard wants Baine to be in the context of the current story, and that is a vessel for the ideals and values of Thrall's horde. I won't say they succeed on every plane with that goal, but at least the goal is clear and obvious.

Yes, and the end of Warlords was meant to show Grom redeemed, Theramore was meant to be a horrible atrocity and Daelin was meant to be wrong. Intent doesn't mean shit if you completely fail on the delivery, as Blizzard have with Baine and much everything else. I have no doubt that they think he's channeling the values of Thrall's Horde, but not only are those values entirely vague and, in so far as they are defined, mostly shit, but he also fails even in that regard. Baine is the farthest thing from pragmatic given he did things like give the quillboar water which did nothing to stop them from preying on his people, hid behind a wall that was only saved by Garrosh's troops and then exile the people who were victimized by the Alliance, tip off the Alliance when an attack on the city that arranged said victimization took place and so and so forth. In this expansion, the sum of his action was to kill several more of his own side to free one guy, resulting in no policy change among anyone but directing several more people to burn in hell than would've been had he done nothing.

He also dislikes orcs compared to his now-fulfilled fantasy of being a human footstool, as @Wilfire can attest to in his quotes from the Shattering. Then again Thrall fails the race test since he has a low opinion of his own race and implemented a policy of penance in a wasteland to make them pay off their green guilt, also per the Shattering.

@Aresk

Retaking Thunder Bluff does nothing except restore the status quo, it doesn't contribute anything new to the Horde. Giving the quillboar water failed and had his people attacked. Building the wall to defend himself failed if not for the intervention of Garrosh's people and the guys he exiled for self-defense.

Baine did absolutely nothing in Zandalar except kill two guys off-screen and send you to look over some Forsaken because he was afraid they'd be too rude to the local humans. Oh, yeah, he also recommended surrendering to the guys who murdered her father to a grieving daughter in front of his corpse at his funeral. Rokhan did all the lasting work and the impetus for their arrival and the resources sank into it were Sylvanas and Nathanos. Baine didn't even actually learn about the people there, given his dismissal of the vulpera, who later show that despite having not even a fraction of the resources of the de-facto Warchief of the Horde, they can solve all the problems he manifestly failed to.

He did add the Highmountain though. Because Sylvanas told him to.

[Verdugo]

This here is semantics I cannot argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about, this wasn't in BFA and I don't remember detailed quest texts from earlier expansions or whatnot. I'm just talking about the character Blizzard wants Baine to be in the context of the current story, and that is a vessel for the ideals and values of Thrall's horde. I won't say they succeed on every plane with that goal, but at least the goal is clear and obvious.

Dude, you mentioned the short story, you know exactly what he is talking about. Baine decided that he should give quillboars fresh water and it bit him in the ass.

[Syegfryed]

It's almost as if the dude is only written into the story by Blizzard when they want him to fulfill a certain role and represent a certain set of ideals.

and thats why he is shit, a character who is only writer to be a peacemonger alliance lover who only want the safety of the enemy

Would you argue that Khadgar wants the entire world to die and is clearly a monstrous psychopath because he hasn't been active during BFA? That has to mean he's an N'zoth apologist, no?

thats a twist so hard that i felt of my chair

Non-racism,

sure, cause orcs love humans nd their friends, regardless this a dead-end and rly baine enver preach "against racism" so this is not relevant

pragmatism in the face of extreme adversity and a "the end doesn't always justify the means"-policy

but the pragmatism is the very idea of end can justify the means, Baine is only pragmatic when he want peace with the alliance

This here is semantics I cannot argue with you because I don't even know what you're talking about, this wasn't in BFA and I don't remember detailed quest texts from earlier expansions or whatnot. I'm just talking about the character Blizzard wants Baine to be in the context of the current story, and that is a vessel for the ideals and values of Thrall's horde. I won't say they succeed on every plane with that goal, but at least the goal is clear and obvious.

the point is Baine was always a shit character with the only goal to have peace with the alliance and would undermine his own people and faction to ensure that

Blizzard now made him unbearable because they put him in this shit role once again, an character who only exist to shit on his faction to want peace

and no he is not a "vessel for the ideals and values of thralls horde" maybe they tried to do that, but they didn't succeed, being a passive peacemonger alliance lapdog is not the values of thrall horde, remember why thrall pick GArrosh, someone that will bow to no human and bear no betrayal. Baine is someone who does bow to a human

[Sezh]

Dude, you mentioned the short story, you know exactly what he is talking about. Baine decided that he should give quillboars fresh water and it bit him in the ass.

No I've never read it.

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and no he is not a "vessel for the ideals and values of thralls horde" maybe they tried to do that, but they didn't succeed

Depends on how high your standards are and how you choose to make your definitions.

[Aresk]

tbf, Maghata would be way better for the tauren best interests here, a strong and decided leader

She poisoned Cairne, who everyone seems to hold as some great tauren leader (for reasons that I cannot fathom, given how little he seemed to actually do), and only because she wanted to lead the tauren. I don't think that's in the best interest for the tauren, but that's probably a matter of opinion.

not like he rly wanted to, and Garrosh was trying to resolve the problem that Baine refused to adress

If he didn't want to, then why did he do it? He could have not done it.

pro-horde it wasn't, since he wasn't warchief anymore

He was tasked by the Warchief to do it. And he did it to the best of his ability.

unwilling

I missed where Baine said he wasn't willing to defend Lordaeron. Where was this stated?

mostly unwilling,a nd mostly for the zandalari, not rly "for the horde"

Sylvanas assigned him to manage the Horde's efforts with the Zandalari. How is that not for the Horde? Where did he complain about doing it? Where did he say he'd rather be elsewhere? I don't recall any part of that role that suggested he wasn't willing to do this.

he actually did that? i barely remember him

He's the one who dispatches the Horde player to Zanchul to attack Zul's loyalists. He sends the Speaker of the Horde to the Temple of the Prophet in Hunting Zul. And he's the one who sends the player to the Blood Gate when the Blood Trolls attack. He essentially has the same role as Nathanos, with Nathanos dispatching the champion to Kul'tiras and Baine dispatching them around Zandalar.

as far as i know Jaina never exiled her own people, never warned the horde of an alliance attack, so on.

She exiled the Sunreavers from the Kirin Tor. She informed the Horde about Daelin's occupation in Theramore and then stood aside knowing that they would kill him.

[Syegfryed]

I don't think that's in the best interest for the tauren, but that's probably a matter of opinion.

i was comparing her to Baine, not to Cairne, of course she was selfish and want power, but she would be better than baine

If he didn't want to, then why did he do it? He could have not done it.

sometimes you do things you don't like, surpsing right? its not like he could let his warchief died and not receive any backlash from it

He was tasked by the Warchief to do it. And he did it to the best of his ability.

thats even worse, he was commanded to do so lul

I missed where Baine said he wasn't willing to defend Lordaeron. Where was this stated?

in e verywhere he said he don't want the war and want peace?

Sylvanas assigned him to manage the Horde's efforts with the Zandalari. How is that not for the Horde? Where did he complain about doing it? Where did he say he'd rather be elsewhere? I don't recall any part of that role that suggested he wasn't willing to do this.

he only did because he was commanded to do so, thats it, is like saying sylvanas was fighting for the hrod ein cataclysm when she only did because GArrosh said si

there is no altruism, patriotism or any other things, there is no wish to fight for your faction, nothing

She exiled the Sunreavers from the Kirin Tor.

waow, she exiled blood elves NOT HER PEOPLE, the oens of the other faction, from a city who is not her, because reasons

totally the same as baine exiling HIS OWN PEOPLE, because they rightful wanted revenge

She informed the Horde about Daelin's occupation in Theramore and then stood aside knowing that they would kill him.

she rly didn't, they all knew at that point, she was neutral, not part of the alliance, unlike Baine who is not neutral, and she simple did nothing

thats big difference in both context and events here

Depends on how high your standards are and how you choose to make your definitions.

pretty sure an alliance lapdog do not fit in the "vessel for te ideals and values of the horde"

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Depends on how high your standards are and how you choose to make your definitions.

pretty sure alliance lapdog and peacemonger don't fit into that

[mickybrighteyes]

You mean an actualy flawed character whose mistakes turned him into a corpse on a life support?

Shhh

Don't spoil the ending! This is the best bet we have to striking him down!

[FuxieDK]

So, vote. Do you think Baine should become Warchief of the Horde ?

Both Baine and Saurfang are traitors to the Horde and are as such disqualified for ANY position, other than ornament on a pole.

[mickybrighteyes]

Yeah, he never has acted with Horde interests at heart. Getting Thunder Bluff back for his people from an usurper was not in tauren best interest. Defending the Warchief when Garrosh foolishly rushed into a Quillboar encampment and almost died definitely wasn't to Horde benefit. Defending said Warchief again in the trial was very anti-Horde. Recruiting the Highmountain into the Horde definitely made it weaker. Organizing the defending forces and fighting the Alliance at Lordaeron was secretly in Alliance best interest. Coordinating Horde events in Zuldazar didn't help Horde interests at all or help stop Zul's insurgency.

Baine's far from perfect, but saying he has never acted with respect to the Horde is blatantly false. I don't see how he's any more anti-Horde than Jaina is anti-Alliance.

I want to point out something, a very specific wording of phrase because you're response is showing the limited examples for WHY I wrote the sentence you quoted the way I did...

.... nevermind he has never acted with respect to the horde in the scope that the game has shown.

Every example you brought up besides HMT recruitment and BFA events was not shown in game. At this point I can only view Baine as serving Baine and the alliance and any action he does that helps the horde is just a happy coincidence. Yeah he sat in Zuldarzar for almost the entire time chatting... he also took the first shots killing horde covertly as a step to go parlay with hostile forces

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I don't know if you're refering to some book or cataclysm questing or whatever.

Largely Cataclysm events. Some of Gann Stonespire's stuff has to be ignored as his ire actually goes a bit deeper back to when Cairne was in charge but they still use Taurajo as a trigger for some of his issues

And Blizz likes to forget about characters between using them to fulfill very specific roles.

Good lord is this the truth. Some characters that were previously hard core fence sitters or neutral or just not entirely following the same path got lumped into interesting places.

I'm not even saying I like Baine, but when it comes to his story in BFA, he does represent the values of Thrall's horde. That's the purpose of his character, and that's what he does as written by Blizzard. Plain and simple.

I think it's more that he is intended to represent what some people think was the values of Thrall's horde... but forgot some details along the way.

[Sezh]

I think it's more that he is intended to represent what some people think was the values of Thrall's horde... but forgot some details along the way.

You're probably right. There are many die hard lore fanatics in this thread who knows this shit much more deeply than me. I was trying to give the perspective of someone less invested in the lore and story, and from that point of view the similarities between Baine's ideals and actions are quite similar to Thrall's during WC3, at least on the surface.

[visualdave]

We need all the help we can to vote BAINE 2020

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Warchief-2020

Mod Edit: Don't use giant fonts in this fashion.

[Grazrug]

We need all the help we can to vote BAINE 2020

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Warchief-2020

Mod Edit: Don't use giant fonts in this fashion.

He doesn't. And you need to stop it.