RE: Lightforged & Void Elf DKs

[Th3Scourge]

You need to stop thinking of them in death as they were in life. DKs are DKs, it doesn't matter what they were when they were alive.

[Piamonte]

Their Light infusion is left intact when the Lightforged are ressurected by Bolvar - which is why they can still use their Holy racials.

LF Draenei DKs do what their living friends can not.

I think thats just gameplay

[Daedius]

Lightforged DK is a perfect litmus test, anyone who defends that garbage just obviously doesnt give a fuck and wants it for the "kewl" factor.

Still waiting for Undead Paladins!!!

[Shelly]

Death knights desecrate the Light. The 'Light' is not creating these new DKs, Bolvar is. They will still wield frost, blood and unholy powers.

The DK himself uses frost, blood and unholy powers yes.

However they still maintain a connection with the light which allows them to call upon it to sear their foes in a beam of holy fire as the light has not forsaken them.

The lore requirement for this isn't exactly a tiny flaming hoop to jump through.

[A Chozo]

I think thats just gameplay

Things that happen in-game are canon until clarified or modified by another canon source. Otherwise the name of the game would be Overwatch.

[Jastall]

Void Elf DKs is just double the edge factor. If they have the ability and desire to tap into the Void, being willing and able to handle being a DK seems to globally make sense to me.

Lightforged... yeah that's a lot harder to justify. I suppose Sir Zeliek and Sally Whitemane are precedents, and since the Ebon Blade now recruits willing souls to be Death Knights one could assume the chosen Lightforged is an exception that is willing to come back as an undead abomination... but it still doesn't sit right with me given that Lightforged are supposed to be quite zealous. Then again so was Whitemane and she's not only a DK but a Horse(wo)man now.

[Irian]

I'm not sure why people think lightforged and void elves couldn't be death knights.

Void elves are not creatures of the void, they're blood elves that have been touched by it. Same with LF Draenei. And like you mentioned, there's already Calia Menethil, an undead created with holy magic.

This isn't and has never been a problem with lore, and even if it was, Blizzard could easily just rewrite it. People are imagining this to be a lot more complicated than it is. These races are living beings first and foremost and living beings can be raised into undeath.

[Piamonte]

Things that happen in-game are canon until clarified or modified by another canon source. Otherwise the name of the game would be Overwatch.

So when another player resurrects you a thousand times is canon even when we know that lorewise a resurrection is extremely rare??

[Villager720]

Either way I'd consider it supporting my theory that the LK - regardless of whom it is - is the "usurper" that Sylvannas talks about when she enters Icecrown. That the LK is usurping the powers of the Jailer.

I mean, the Lich King is even referred to as the Jailor of the Damned.
Meaning, as far as we know, the dude stole the “real” Jailor’s helmet, armor, title, souls(anima), and death powers. If that’s not a usurper, I dunno what is.

[Piamonte]

I mean, the Lich King is even referred to as the Jailor of the Damned.
Meaning, as far as we know, the dude stole the “real” Jailor’s helmet, armor, title, souls(anima), and death powers. If that’s not a usurper, I dunno what is.

I think the "usurper" quote is just metaphorical, the lich King calls himself the jailor of the damn, but the true jailor is the one that lives in the maw.

[Shelly]

I think the "usurper" quote is just metaphorical, the lich King calls himself the jailor of the damn, but the true jailor is the one that lives in the maw.

The accusation can only go two ways.

1) She's saying that Bolvar has taken the place of Arthas. Stealing his seat. This might make sense if it were say Tirion on the throne, or someone that sought the power of the LK (as Bolvar presumes Sylvannas is doing.)

2) She's saying that the creation of the Lich King has stolen the power of the Jailer and the Maw itself. That no matter whom is on the throne they are taking power that isn't theirs.

I find the second option far more likely given what we know from the Shadowlands previews about the Jailer and his connection with Sylvannas. She's working for him as his agent, is empowered by him and has been feeding him souls by engineering war - possibly since right before the events of the Cataclysm when she committed suicide off the top of Icecrown.

[Razion]

Void Elves work to master the whispers so they are quiet. A Void Elf DK would probably have to work harder to snuff the whispers if the Void has any opposition to what they are (assuming being undead or there being more undead leads to a reality where the Void loses). But any great destined hero like our player characters who continually get in the Void's way of victory would also as Void Elves be prone to a lot of angry whispers already. But being Undead may make the whispers quieter at the same time by virtue of what they are granting some level of shadow resistance (Forsaken racial example) or even by Death Knights naturally in lore countering a lot of magic on their own. The Lich King's whispers may grant them some resistance in the form of experience with this sort of thing. The hunger DKs feel to inflict pain and suffering may also be something they focus on as a way to quiet the whispers, assuming that hunger doesn't go away with the destruction of the Helm. Also in the same vein, if the Lich King can still speak to DKs since the destruction of the Helm, this may be something Void Elf DKs turn to as well. In time, prolonged listening to the Lich King instead of the Void if still possible may lead to corruption of that sort as well, assuming as well that Bolvar eventually turns down a darker road as well. What would be interesting to consider specifically is Koltira Deathweaver, and if he has become a Void Elf, and if he would be interested at all in turning forcibly by Sylvanas in an effort to quiet the Void -- and then, by extension, what his old friend Thassarian would think or do about it.

As for the Lightforged, I think more or less the same in an inverse relation for the Light. Their devotion they see as a good thing, while the Void Elves strive to fight off and ignore the Void while mastering it. A Lightforge may try to find ways to honor and serve the Light, despite or perhaps because of their condition may cause them to think they need to with even more vigor. Lightforged may see it as a test of faith, and may use their position in undeath as an excuse to do more and more insane or even dangerous things in favor of the Light. If DKs still receive influence like whispers from the Lich King or the need to inflict pain since the Helm's destruction, the Lightforged may even take to confusing the Lich King for the Light's whispers, or even finding conflict with either inflicting the pain as the Light's will, or seriously trying to stave off ever inflicting pain so long to the extent that it drives them mad - possibly in religious fervor.

[Piamonte]

The accusation can only go two ways.

1) She's saying that Bolvar has taken the place of Arthas. Stealing his seat. This might make sense if it were say Tirion on the throne, or someone that sought the power of the LK (as Bolvar presumes Sylvannas is doing.)

2) She's saying that the creation of the Lich King has stolen the power of the Jailer and the Maw itself. That no matter whom is on the throne they are taking power that isn't theirs.

I find the second option far more likely given what we know from the Shadowlands previews about the Jailer and his connection with Sylvannas. She's working for him as his agent, is empowered by him and has been feeding him souls by engineering war - possibly since right before the events of the Cataclysm when she committed suicide off the top of Icecrown.

how the lich king would take power from the jailor?? they are most likely enemies considering the jailor is helping silvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

Void Elves work to master the whispers so they are quiet. A Void Elf DK would probably have to work harder to snuff the whispers if the Void has any opposition to what they are (assuming being undead or there being more undead leads to a reality where the Void loses). But any great destined hero like our player characters who continually get in the Void's way of victory would also as Void Elves be prone to a lot of angry whispers already. But being Undead may make the whispers quieter at the same time by virtue of what they are granting some level of shadow resistance (Forsaken racial example) or even by Death Knights naturally in lore countering a lot of magic on their own. The Lich King's whispers may grant them some resistance in the form of experience with this sort of thing. The hunger DKs feel to inflict pain and suffering may also be something they focus on as a way to quiet the whispers, assuming that hunger doesn't go away with the destruction of the Helm. Also in the same vein, if the Lich King can still speak to DKs since the destruction of the Helm, this may be something Void Elf DKs turn to as well. In time, prolonged listening to the Lich King instead of the Void if still possible may lead to corruption of that sort as well, assuming as well that Bolvar eventually turns down a darker road as well. What would be interesting to consider specifically is Koltira Deathweaver, and if he has become a Void Elf, and if he would be interested at all in turning forcibly by Sylvanas in an effort to quiet the Void -- and then, by extension, what his old friend Thassarian would think or do about it.

As for the Lightforged, I think more or less the same in an inverse relation for the Light. Their devotion they see as a good thing, while the Void Elves strive to fight off and ignore the Void while mastering it. A Lightforge may try to find ways to honor and serve the Light, despite or perhaps because of their condition may cause them to think they need to with even more vigor. Lightforged may see it as a test of faith, and may use their position in undeath as an excuse to do more and more insane or even dangerous things in favor of the Light. If DKs still receive influence like whispers from the Lich King or the need to inflict pain since the Helm's destruction, the Lightforged may even take to confusing the Lich King for the Light's whispers, or even finding conflict with either inflicting the pain as the Light's will, or seriously trying to stave off ever inflicting pain so long to the extent that it drives them mad - possibly in religious fervor.

arent undead creatures inmune to the void, so if a void elf becomes a dk, should that make him lose all of his void powers??

[Razion]

arent undead creatures inmune to the void, so if a void elf becomes a dk, should that make him lose all of his void powers??

Wowpedia on the effects of Void on the Undead:
"The undead are beings who have died and become trapped between life and death. One of the consequences of the involvement of Void in the undead's metaphysics is that they only feel faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli. This is also why the Light is so painful to their existence. The dark energy serves as a buffer that prevents the souls of the undead from properly joining their bodies. As a result, their souls are imperfectly attached to them. [Blizzard Lore Posts]

When a spirit is consumed by the Void, an echo of the soul is all that is left behind. These echoes are not truly "alive" in either the physical or spiritual sense, and are merely twisted reverberations of the anguish of the soul left behind when it was consumed. [Quest: Echoes of the Past]"

So to this end, Undead don't feel much physically from the Void. Clearly we see a lot of ghosts and spirits communicate and articulate coherant thought, so mentality as it concerns the brain, a spot often directly influenced by the Void in terms of sanity, is one area where Undeath would have some resistance - but not complete immunity. This is why characters like Shadow Priests or Faceless can harm or influence undead creatures even in most lore scenarios that aren't relegated to just player vs enemy interactions, but also why Undead units commonly resist Fear and Charm effects at the same time. As long as the Void isn't directly using Mind Control, for example, an Undead would still be vulnerable to slow and insidious corruption - like perhaps what we saw of the Lich King and Saronite.

So, an Undead wouldn't lose their Void powers at all. They would have resistance to direct major control (Void Elves would perhaps seek undeath out for this reason, actually, if they knew this), but not complete immunity to other forms of lesser influence such as whispers. Undead who are already under direct control of beings like Necromancers or the Lich King probably remain like puppets by the controller as much as they are able. What impact whispering has on a controller like the Lich King or Necromancers in general when done to a subject I would think is a little unclear, but perhaps Saronite has a bigger role to play in this regard than is otherwise apparent.

[Shelly]

how the lich king would take power from the jailor?? they are most likely enemies considering the jailor is helping silvanas.

We've got a whole expansion for them to tell us.

Off the top of my head though, the helm of dominion and frostmourne were acting as an intercessor between souls and the Shadowlands and actually contain a portion of the Jailer's power somehow. It's also possible that they allowed the Jailer a foothold in our world to see the living world and the treasure of anima it contained.

Then the breaking of Frostmourne and the death of sylvannas combined to show a large amount of available anima that could be re-routed to the Maw and gave him the opportunity to create an agent in the living world. So he struck a deal with her and she set about sending souls to the other side to feed him, greatly increasing both their power.

[A Chozo]

So when another player resurrects you a thousand times is canon even when we know that lorewise a resurrection is extremely rare??

Of course it's not canon. We know that lorewise it's extremely rare.

For everything else (like Lightforged Death Knights using Holy magic racials), it's canon until stated otherwise.

[Trumpcat]

Just another in the long line of lore conflicting races/classes.

The restrictions system is outdated and so controversial it makes no sense whatsoever. I think every race should be able to pick any class and just be done with it.

Before you point out Panda demon hunters: the problem is in having clown races in the first place and we already get them as DKs so...

[Delmorii]

Wowpedia on the effects of Void on the Undead:
"The undead are beings who have died and become trapped between life and death. One of the consequences of the involvement of Void in the undead's metaphysics is that they only feel faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli. This is also why the Light is so painful to their existence. The dark energy serves as a buffer that prevents the souls of the undead from properly joining their bodies. As a result, their souls are imperfectly attached to them. [Blizzard Lore Posts]

When a spirit is consumed by the Void, an echo of the soul is all that is left behind. These echoes are not truly "alive" in either the physical or spiritual sense, and are merely twisted reverberations of the anguish of the soul left behind when it was consumed. [Quest: Echoes of the Past]"

So to this end, Undead don't feel much physically from the Void. Clearly we see a lot of ghosts and spirits communicate and articulate coherant thought, so mentality as it concerns the brain, a spot often directly influenced by the Void in terms of sanity, is one area where Undeath would have some resistance - but not complete immunity. This is why characters like Shadow Priests or Faceless can harm or influence undead creatures even in most lore scenarios that aren't relegated to just player vs enemy interactions, but also why Undead units commonly resist Fear and Charm effects at the same time. As long as the Void isn't directly using Mind Control, for example, an Undead would still be vulnerable to slow and insidious corruption - like perhaps what we saw of the Lich King and Saronite.

So, an Undead wouldn't lose their Void powers at all. They would have resistance to direct major control (Void Elves would perhaps seek undeath out for this reason, actually, if they knew this), but not complete immunity to other forms of lesser influence such as whispers. Undead who are already under direct control of beings like Necromancers or the Lich King probably remain like puppets by the controller as much as they are able. What impact whispering has on a controller like the Lich King or Necromancers in general when done to a subject I would think is a little unclear, but perhaps Saronite has a bigger role to play in this regard than is otherwise apparent.

Huh! Wasn't aware of this tidbit of lore, thank you; think I'm gunna be perusing that page after work. As for Saronite's involvement, I was under the impression they quit using it by Legion? I can't find the NPC in question, but it was a skeletal blacksmith in Legion Acherus grumbling about how Saronite "wasn't good enough anymore". Maybe it had to be worked a different way, I don't remember, I'll have to pop onto my DK at some point and talk to him. The little bit I did read, though, mentioned that DKs did seem to have some immunity to Saronite's influence-- even the Knights of the Ebon Blade, who had broken free from the LK's command, were resistant, and Saronite being from an Old God gives your theory credit. Interesting!

Just another in the long line of lore conflicting races/classes.

The restrictions system is outdated and so controversial it makes no sense whatsoever. I think every race should be able to pick any class and just be done with it.

Before you point out Panda demon hunters: the problem is in having clown races in the first place and we already get them as DKs so...

Well, to be fair, we now have a crapton of DHs flitting about who can teach others, and after the Legion's third invasion, everyone's now suffered in some way from the Legion and has a plausible reason for becoming a Demon Hunter. It's even mentioned that there's still plenty of demons on Azeroth that survived and still need to be handled, so there's a reason and a need right there. Not that I think Blizz will do that, but they've got excuses if they ever really wanted them.

[Jastall]

The hint is in the name.

Hm, they are infused with the Light, but they hardly become beings of Light like the Naaru themselves. The initiation ceremony involves clearing themselves of doubt and accepting the Light as their only truth, not actually becoming one with it.

I think it is more akin to every Lightforged lorewise basically being a Paladin in terms of Light infusion, regardless of their class in gameplay. And we know that dead Paladins, hell even live ones, can become Death Knights. Even otherwise cursed beings like Worgen can.

I guess the sillyness is more that they're still referred to as Lightforged, when really they are now normal Draenei DKs.

[MrLachyG]

Hey y'all! Saw the new DK eyes on the front page and got to chatting with a friend about the upgrade, and got to thinking about how LF and VE DKs will work, lore-wise. What really got us intrigued was the Cosmology chart:

(Just a link so no giant annoying image): https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160313175241

Light opposes Void,
Life opposes Death,
Order opposes Disorder.

Seeing as neither Light nor Void oppose Death, I got the impression that LF and VE will function just fine as DKs-- as in canonically they can still use their Light- and Void-themed racials without issue. What intrigued me moreso, though, was the VE angle-- do they still hear the Void? If they do, what is it saying? Is it screaming or whispering? We saw with Alleria the reaction it had to Sylvanas, calling Death the 'enemy of all', so what would its reaction be to a Void-infused being becoming undead? Or, would the Void-infused no longer hear the whispers of the Void at all? My friend made a good point with Whitemane, who gained clarity after death.

For LF, we do have examples of undead wielding/still with the Light; Alonsus Faol, Calia, Crusader Bridenbrad (Crusader infected with the plague in Icecrown whom a Naaru took into the Light), Sir Zeliek-- and yes, I understand that these characters are exceptions and not rules, but they provide evidence that it's possible. And for a draenei, whom as a race already had strong ties to the Light, to become Lightforged and 'one' with the Light, it seems plausible that the Light wouldn't abandon them after undeath, either.

But what do y'all think? Yay/nay?

Lore wise it’s pretty straightforward; they are LF Draenei and VE’s who have been raised into undeath