People don't have limits to ability

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

What if a person has no arms or legs? They wouldn't be able to play the piano very well.

Yea you can play it with ur mouth.

[Ghostpanther]

What if a person has no arms or legs? They wouldn't be able to play the piano very well.

Good point. All of us have limits and as Dirty Harry said, " Every man needs to know his limitations. " But most people probably have not reached their limits. I know that myself in some ways, could do better.

[shadowmouse]

And just to clarify, it isn't about simple growth of ability, it is about unending growth to ability, the absence of any limits, which was the claim the manager made.

Off the cuff, here is my completely unscientific opinion. There is an old joke about math vs. engineering in which a renowned expert in each are put at one end of a football field and a million dollars at the other end. All they need to do to get the money is to reach it, but they can only move half of the distance remaining each time they advance. The engineer immediately sets off while the mathematician yells out: "You damned fool, it is impossible! You'll never be able to reach it." The engineer is said to have replied: "I know, but I figure I'll get close enough."

The manager's claim for unlimited growth is similar. The problem is, should it be evaluated as the mathematician in the joke would have seen it, or as the engineer would have? I'd say it comes down to something akin to return on investment. With enough time and resources, could the student keep improving forever? Perhaps, but how practical would it be? In all probability, neither the student nor the school are working with enough time and resources to make tiny increments of change worthwhile, so it is moot.

That's the abstract discussion, but I also work in education and recognize the scenario. The manager is using a motivational phrase to obliquely imply that the teacher isn't doing enough to motivate the student. At the same time, I'd bet that if the teacher asked for better resources, they wouldn't be in the budget. It is an old battle that keeps playing out in the field.

[Shadowferal]

I've always believed that everyone has a genius inside of them.
It's just different for every individual.

That said, I've spent plenty of time around the mentally disabled. And as much as I dearly would love to be wrong, no amount of libertarian fantasizing will change them.

[PC2]

That math is not something I can pick up, going above certain level...

Please stop being lazy.

I didn't say it's not computable... I said there are different types of computation, and you only stick to one... a Turing machine; Logical calculation, and ignore the other type, Illogical calculation.

I'm talking about a UTM and not a TM. A UTM running a GI program is a form of imagination best described as "probing the space of all possibilities". There's only one type of calculation, it just depends on the type of program that is being run.

But your arguments break down to being, essentially, reductionism. You seem to think people/brains are like turing machines... this assumption is, IMO, wrong.

No. Emergentism is correct. Reductionism is wrong.

We are talking about "don't have limit"... not that current limits cannot be surpassed.

Connal, human potential is UNBOUNDED and not BOUNDED. Period.

Your brain is not a computer and human psychology is not binary that's not even going into other factors such as time, external pressure and so on. Your reasoning only works if we aren't human.

Are you religious or spiritual in any way? Yes or no? This is a BINARY question and I don't want any middling bullshit.

mental retardation doesn't exist? Really?

Non-functionals don't apply here.

---

All people are EQUAL, no one is superior. Okay?

Bigots.

[Shadowferal]

Pretty sure you've already reached your limit.
You just lack the self-awareness to realize it.

[Kraenen]

mental retardation doesn't exist? Really?

I guess those people have to try really really hard, or maybe mental retardation just doesn't exist and it's all dependent on society's perception. (these aren't what I believe, but those are rebuttals I hear sometimes).

[PC2]

Pretty sure you've already reached your limit.
You just lack the self-awareness to realize it.

I'm doing just fine my friend.

So as I said, you know where it leads, and will not accept it... maybe in a few years.

Emergence is as reductionist as reductionism. It just paint itself as being complex beneath something it has no hopes in explaining.

Argh Connal, you don't want to explain anything. You only want to attribute everything to the numinous.

[Shadowferal]

Some people are so locked in their limited perceptions that they can't grasp others' purviews.
Worse, they can't know the cage they're in.

[Draco-Onis]

Are you religious or spiritual in any way? Yes or no? This is a BINARY question and I don't want any middling bullshit.

What does that have to do with humans ability to learn which depends on a number variable independent of the physical attributes of the brain? and for the record no.

[PC2]

What does that have to do with humans ability to learn which depends on a number variable independent of the physical attributes of the brain? and for the record no.

Okay so if learning ability isn't based on computation nor the supernatural then what is it based on? I've yet to hear a 3rd explanation but I'll definitely research it once you let me know about your theory.

- - - Updated - - -

Some people are so locked in their limited perceptions that they can't grasp others' purviews.
Worse, they can't know the cage they're in.

I'm all ears if you want to assert a theory.

[Shadowferal]

I don't believe anyone should waste time describing a rainbow to someone that has been blind his/her entire life.

[Draco-Onis]

Okay so if learning isn't based on computation nor the supernatural then what is it based on? I've yet to hear a 3rd explanation but I'll definitely research it once you let me know about your theory.

You are really overthinking basic things like hunger, interest in the subject, previous but similar subjects learned previously even the person who is teaching and the way they approach and teach has an impact. I am not sure why this needs to be spelled out there's plenty of research in terms of learning and what affects it in various stages of life.

You are being purposely rigid humans are not computers.

[PC2]

You are really overthinking basic things like hunger, interest in the subject, previous but similar subjects learned previously even the person who is teaching and the way they approach and teach has an impact. I am not sure why this needs to be spelled out there's plenty of research in terms of learning and what affects it in various stages of life.

You are being purposely rigid humans are not computers.

What? How is this an explanation for how people gain problem solving knowledge? I'm just trying to understand how things work.

[Shadowferal]

You are being purposely rigid humans are not computers.

I'm reminded that neural science once believed that people were hardwired, that ways of thought become rigid when we're children.
This belief was shattered in the past decade I believe. People continue to learn...through experience.
I admit I laughed that it took "science" to come around to thinking as I did when I first heard about being "hardwired" which I dismissed as silly years ago.

[Crissi]

Brains arent computers. Humans arent computers. Brains can differ quite a lot, even before the nurture part of learning kicks in. Otherwise, we wouldn't all have fairly different personalities. As such, everyone has different limits for different things.

Like taking language for example. While its not my favorite thing in the world, I can learn the more simpler languages by really putting my time into it although its a lot harder now at my age. My dad however, was completely incapable of learning anything beyond the basics because his very way of thinking didnt allow him to store a lot or translate quickly. He would need to recognize the word first, then mentally think about what the translation would be as opposed to simply knowing what the word is at first glance.

Then lets look at artists vs non artists. Artists often see the world differently and in non logical ways, where the more logical people would have a MUCH harder time and may not even be able to do it at all. No matter how much I could practise it, i will never be able to be as good as my sis because I simply dont see the world, or images in my head, the same way as she does.

[Shadowferal]

Learning a new language was one of the experiences that forced neural science to reconsider earlier theories of being hardwired.

[PC2]

Brains arent computers. Humans arent computers. Brains can differ quite a lot, even before the nurture part of learning kicks in. Otherwise, we wouldn't all have fairly different personalities. As such, everyone has different limits for different things.

Like taking language for example. While its not my favorite thing in the world, I can learn the more simpler languages by really putting my time into it although its a lot harder now at my age. My dad however, was completely incapable of learning anything beyond the basics because his very way of thinking didnt allow him to store a lot or translate quickly. He would need to recognize the word first, then mentally think about what the translation would be as opposed to simply knowing what the word is at first glance.

Then lets look at artists vs non artists. Artists often see the world differently and in non logical ways, where the more logical people would have a MUCH harder time and may not even be able to do it at all. No matter how much I could practise it, i will never be able to be as good as my sis because I simply dont see the world, or images in my head, the same way as she does.

This isn't an explanation for anything whatsoever. How do people gain problem solving knowledge if not through computation?

[Crissi]

This isn't an explanation for anything whatsoever. How do people gain problem solving knowledge if not through computation?

Not all brains compute the same. That's the thing. Some brains may not have the actual synapse connections form that help with doing certain tasks. That certainly seems to be the case with my dad and learning languages. He is literally incapable because he can literally not think in the way most languages are learned post early childhood.

Also, brain chemistry impacting what we are motivated to learn and enjoy. Trying to learn something you hate is just gonna go nowhere. Not to mention brains post 25 tend to be set in their ways in terms of setting up new connections. Young brains are more malleable, but its still not going to be equal for everyone.

[PC2]

Brains arent computers...

Not all brains compute the same. That's the thing. Some brains may not have the actual synapse connections form that help with doing certain tasks. That certainly seems to be the case with my dad and learning languages. He is literally incapable because he can literally not think in the way most languages are learned post early childhood.

Also, brain chemistry impacting what we are motivated to learn and enjoy. Trying to learn something you hate is just gonna go nowhere. Not to mention brains post 25 tend to be set in their ways in terms of setting up new connections. Young brains are more malleable, but its still not going to be equal for everyone.

You just said brains aren't computers and then you said they don't "compute the same", which makes zero sense. Either they compute and are computers or they don't compute and they aren't computers. It can't be both at the same time.

Also computation done on a running GI program is just about 'variation' so actually it does all work the same, what makes people unique is that we each have slightly different hardware/brain parameters and we are each situated into a different environmental and cultural context. Even two identical twins will begin to differentiate themselves overtime since their brains and environment will be slightly different based on the fact that they can't go through life on the exact same pathway.