RE: Lightforged & Void Elf DKs

[Piamonte]

Of course it's not canon. We know that lorewise it's extremely rare.

For everything else (like Lightforged Death Knights using Holy magic racials), it's canon until stated otherwise.

thats not how it works, we know that the bosses coming back to life every week or we going to arthas timeline whenever we travel to northrend is not canon but that and many other things are not stated anywhere to be just gameplay, we just know it is because its obvious.

The most you can say is that we dont know whether the LF DK racials are canon or not, but say they are canon from the start is a stretch.

[A Chozo]

thats not how it works, we know that the bosses coming back to life every week or we going to arthas timeline whenever we travel to northrend is not canon but that and many other things are not stated anywhere to be just gameplay, we just know it is because its obvious.

The most you can say is that we dont know whether the LF DK racials are canon or not, but say they are canon from the start is a stretch.

There's quite the gigantic jump between canonical, logical order of events in a game and the skills of a character.

The timeline - this order is constantly shown to the observer through quest text referencing it and external material like Chronicles which registered it. For stuff that isn't questioned like Lightforged Draenei Death Knights having Holy racials, it remains as canon until stated otherwise - especially considering that we know that playable LFD DKs will have access to their racials, and there's nothing in the lore saying that they canonically shouldn't have - meanwhile, the canon order of events show that things that have happened aren't happening again when the gameplay demands it.

[Sorrowseer]

Lightforged are no different from normal Draenei to be honest. Only Void Elfs are a bit weird, wait until they make VE DH's hehe.

[Piamonte]

There's quite the gigantic jump between canonical, logical order of events in a game and the skills of a character.

The timeline - this order is constantly shown to the observer through quest text referencing it and external material like Chronicles which registered it. For stuff that isn't questioned like Lightforged Draenei Death Knights having Holy racials, it remains as canon until stated otherwise - especially considering that we know that playable LFD DKs will have access to their racials, and there's nothing in the lore saying that they canonically shouldn't have - meanwhile, the canon order of events show that things that have happened aren't happening again when the gameplay demands it.

Racials is a gameplay thing, it could be canon but we dont know until blizzard explicitly states it.

[A Chozo]

Racials is a gameplay thing, it could be canon but we dont know until blizzard explicitly states it.

That's not how this works. For the player character, it's racials are a set of traits they actually have. It's made canon the moment it happens in-game, and it's unmade when it's specified otherwise somewhere else.

Again: the game is still canon.

[huth]

That's not how this works. For the player character, it's racials are a set of traits they actually have. It's made canon the moment it happens in-game, and it's unmade when it's specified otherwise somewhere else.

Again: the game is still canon.

Yes, it is. WoW has some fairly heavy gameplay and story segregation. Game mechanics are not indicative of lore unless stated otherwise.

[A Chozo]

Yes, it is. WoW has some fairly heavy gameplay and story segregation. Game mechanics are not indicative of lore unless stated otherwise.

Yes, there are heavy gameplay and story segregation, and each time it happens it's specified - be it by devs or extended material. For everything else, the game is the canon. WoW isn't support material for Warcraft lore - WoW is the main medium of storytelling.

[huth]

Yes, there are heavy gameplay and story segregation, and each time it happens it's specified - be it by devs or extended material. For everything else, the game is the canon. WoW isn't support material for Warcraft lore - WoW is the main medium of storytelling.

No, it isn't specified each time, and only after the fact when it is. You're just assuming everything in the game is canon with no actual proof.

[A Chozo]

No, it isn't specified each time, and only after the fact when it is. You're just assuming everything in the game is canon with no actual proof.

It is specified (or blatantly obvious), and of course it's usually after the fact. That's how you usually clarify something.

And naturally there's no need of proof to say that something that happened in-game is canon. It's the default. Similar to a book, the story told in WoW is the canon until an official source states otherwise. Or do you really need a tiny pop-up specifying that something is canon every time it is? I seriously hope not.

But nah, you'r probably correct. The game is non-canon in the parts where it's convenient for you.

[huth]

It is specified (or blatantly obvious), and of course it's usually after the fact. That's how you usually clarify something.

No, it isn't. A lot of things aren't very clear, but not important enough for anybody to care. Like barbers being able to change things far beyond what would be part of their job or transmog vendors. Do those really exist in-universe or are those just simplifications for players?

The game also gives very little information about the actual geography of locations.

Outside of actual story events, canonicity of anything you see is often questionable.

[A Chozo]

No, it isn't. A lot of things aren't very clear, but not important enough for anybody to care. Like barbers being able to change things far beyond what would be part of their job or transmog vendors. Do those really exist in-universe or are those just simplifications for players?

The game also gives very little information about the actual geography of locations.

Outside of actual story events, canonicity of anything you see is often questionable.

WoW's barbers are notorious for being borderline surgeons and they themselves comment on it - they can do some "coloring" on the player character. We don't know how, but they do it, and if no official source says otherwise, it's canon. Ridiculous, but canon.

The geography of locations is one example of things that have been clarified in external, official material - we know that the lands should be much bigger, but it's all smaller due to gameplay reasons. You can question the canonicity, but until an official source clarifies, extends, retcons, etc. the information, it is to be regarded as canon. Hell, this is why we have inconsistencies - sometimes the game says something, then a book says something else, and since both statements should be correct, it creates a nice lore clusterfuck until a dev clarifies or makes it all worse.

[huth]

WoW's barbers are notorious for being borderline surgeons and they themselves comment on it - they can do some "coloring" on the player character. We don't know how, but they do it, and if no official source says otherwise, it's canon. Ridiculous, but canon.

You use the questionable source to confirm itself. Do i really need to explain why that doesn't work?

[A Chozo]

You use the questionable source to confirm itself. Do i really need to explain why that doesn't work?

So the game itself is a questionable source now? The heck?

This is a waste of time.

[The Butt Witch]

I still can't believe there is not a single storyline of Void Elves clashing with Lightforged over their beliefs.

Not to mention what an abomination on top of another abomination a Void Elf DK must be considered

No more than an undead dk.

[Piamonte]

That's not how this works. For the player character, it's racials are a set of traits they actually have. It's made canon the moment it happens in-game, and it's unmade when it's specified otherwise somewhere else.

Again: the game is still canon.

No, thats just your head canon, at most you can say that racials are inspired from canon lore but not canon themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

WoW's barbers are notorious for being borderline surgeons and they themselves comment on it - they can do some "coloring" on the player character. We don't know how, but they do it, and if no official source says otherwise, it's canon. Ridiculous, but canon.

The geography of locations is one example of things that have been clarified in external, official material - we know that the lands should be much bigger, but it's all smaller due to gameplay reasons. You can question the canonicity, but until an official source clarifies, extends, retcons, etc. the information, it is to be regarded as canon. Hell, this is why we have inconsistencies - sometimes the game says something, then a book says something else, and since both statements should be correct, it creates a nice lore clusterfuck until a dev clarifies or makes it all worse.

When the barbers mention things like that, is the dev making fun of themselves of how ridiculous it is. There isnt even a thing in lore that supports the barbers being able to do what they do.

[A Chozo]

No, thats just your head canon

Sorry but the game absolutely doesn't become non-canon in order to make your botched arguments possible, especially when it's on specific parts for your convenience.

[ravenmoon]

Hey y'all! Saw the new DK eyes on the front page and got to chatting with a friend about the upgrade, and got to thinking about how LF and VE DKs will work, lore-wise. What really got us intrigued was the Cosmology chart:

(Just a link so no giant annoying image): https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160313175241

Light opposes Void,
Life opposes Death,
Order opposes Disorder.

Seeing as neither Light nor Void oppose Death, I got the impression that LF and VE will function just fine as DKs-- as in canonically they can still use their Light- and Void-themed racials without issue. What intrigued me moreso, though, was the VE angle-- do they still hear the Void? If they do, what is it saying? Is it screaming or whispering? We saw with Alleria the reaction it had to Sylvanas, calling Death the 'enemy of all', so what would its reaction be to a Void-infused being becoming undead? Or, would the Void-infused no longer hear the whispers of the Void at all? My friend made a good point with Whitemane, who gained clarity after death.

For LF, we do have examples of undead wielding/still with the Light; Alonsus Faol, Calia, Crusader Bridenbrad (Crusader infected with the plague in Icecrown whom a Naaru took into the Light), Sir Zeliek-- and yes, I understand that these characters are exceptions and not rules, but they provide evidence that it's possible. And for a draenei, whom as a race already had strong ties to the Light, to become Lightforged and 'one' with the Light, it seems plausible that the Light wouldn't abandon them after undeath, either.

But what do y'all think? Yay/nay?

People overthink these things. Void elves and Lightforged are connected to void and light powers while alive, but they are their own modified races anyway, when they die, that connection (that would have impeded or conflicted with death) is either gone or far lesser than death which is strong.

When raised, tehy still keep the shape and appearance of their original race, and hence they become Death Knight Lightforged or Void elves. there is very little light or void employed by them, it's just death now. But then if Lightforged and void elves could stillwiield other magics and skills because you know, they aren't classes but races, being death knights is not inconceivbable.

[Trumpcat]

Forget the cosmology it is not about opposition, it is just a general view on the forces in the cosmos. If we were adhering to the opposition then you wouldn't have Forsaken as barely any class. You wouldn't have Lightforged shadow priest, demon sucking belf "paladins". Nor many other things.

The race/class combinations are littered with canon breaking controversy and the best thing you can do as a player is just ignore it and enjoy the aesthetics you prefer.

Whereas the best thing Blizzard can do is just lift the remaining restrictions as they make no sense, if a number of impossible combinations are possible, and let any race be any class.

The players who care about lore background are capable of creating much better explanation about their class/race combo of choice than Blizzard could. As we've seen in many examples in the community.

[Piamonte]

Sorry but the game absolutely doesn't become non-canon in order to make your botched arguments possible, especially when it's on specific parts for your convenience.

No one is saying the game is non canon, stop twisting people's words, there is gameplay stuff and lore stuff, sometimes the separation is clear and sometimes is not and the devs do not always explicitly state which is which. This is one of those cases, we dont know for certain if the racials are canon or not.

[A Chozo]

there is gameplay stuff and lore stuff, sometimes the separation is clear and sometimes is not and the devs do not always explicitly state which is which. This is one of those cases, we dont know for certain if the racials are canon or not.

Yeah, sometimes the devs don't state what's canon or not, so they granted you the honors to specify what is and isn't based on your own opinion. Nice.

Of course there's gameplay and lore, but until specified or made obvious, everything happening in the game is the canon.