Warchief Baine

[Aresk]

Every example you brought up besides HMT recruitment and BFA events was not shown in game. At this point I can only view Baine as serving Baine and the alliance and any action he does that helps the horde is just a happy coincidence. Yeah he sat in Zuldarzar for almost the entire time chatting... he also took the first shots killing horde covertly as a step to go parlay with hostile forces

The game literally shows him attacking (and seemingly killing) an Alliance soldier at Lordaeron in an in-game cinematic and signalling the retreat. You can say he favors Alliance. You can see he almost always supports Alliance. But saying he has never been shown to do things for the Horde is false.

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Retaking Thunder Bluff does nothing except restore the status quo, it doesn't contribute anything new to the Horde. Giving the quillboar water failed and had his people attacked. Building the wall to defend himself failed if not for the intervention of Garrosh's people and the guys he exiled for self-defense.

Baine did absolutely nothing in Zandalar except kill two guys off-screen and send you to look over some Forsaken because he was afraid they'd be too rude to the local humans. Oh, yeah, he also recommended surrendering to the guys who murdered her father to a grieving daughter in front of his corpse at his funeral. Rokhan did all the lasting work and the impetus for their arrival and the resources sank into it were Sylvanas and Nathanos. Baine didn't even actually learn about the people there, given his dismissal of the vulpera, who later show that despite having not even a fraction of the resources of the de-facto Warchief of the Horde, they can solve all the problems he manifestly failed to.

He did add the Highmountain though. Because Sylvanas told him to.

I'm not saying Baine is the paragon of Horde patriotism. I'm not saying Baine doesn't care about Alliance interests. The statement I was replying to said "nevermind he has never acted with respect to the horde in the scope that the game has shown." I was pointing out that such statement was factually incorrect.

I think players are justified in criticizing Baine's actions. I don't think one should disregard examples that run contrary to a person's opinion just so they can argue that there's no other valid interpretation of a character.

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i was comparing her to Baine, not to Cairne, of course she was selfish and want power, but she would be better than baine

Like I said, that's a matter of opinion. I don't think there's really any more to be said on that front.

sometimes you do things you don't like, surpsing right? its not like he could let his warchief died and not receive any backlash from it

Yes. I don't want to work 20-hour days, but I'm willing to do so when I have to. There's a difference between not wanting to do something and being unwilling to do it. You said he was unwilling to do the things he did for the Horde. That's not the case.

thats even worse, he was commanded to do so lul

Yeah, the Horde Warchief asked him to defend his father's murderer in a trial, and he did so. He didn't object. I'm not sure how that's worse, given he's doing what the Horde has asked of him.

in e verywhere he said he don't want the war and want peace?

That doesn't mean he's unwilling to defend the assaults on Lordaeron.

he only did because he was commanded to do so, thats it, is like saying sylvanas was fighting for the hrod ein cataclysm when she only did because GArrosh said si

there is no altruism, patriotism or any other things, there is no wish to fight for your faction, nothing

You're saying that Sylvanas' attack on Gilneas under Garrosh's orders to establish a port (which is stupid given that we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Silverpine works fine for docking ships) wasn't helping the Horde? You seem to be suggesting that the only people capable of helping the Horde is the Warchief itself, since everyone else just has to follow the Warchief's orders (which doesn't count) or go against the Warchief's orders (which doesn't count).

waow, she exiled blood elves NOT HER PEOPLE, the oens of the other faction, from a city who is not her, because reasons

totally the same as baine exiling HIS OWN PEOPLE, because they rightful wanted revenge

Jaina was on the Council of Six and head of the Kirin Tor at the time. She was responsible for the blood elves as well as the high elves and humans and gnomes that were part of the Kirin Tor. If you want to go strictly off racial lines, you can, but then Magatha (who you seem to hold in high esteem as a tauren leader) is responsible for assassinating her own people, and you have no problem with that, so exiling people should be of no real concern.

she rly didn't, they all knew at that point, she was neutral, not part of the alliance, unlike Baine who is not neutral, and she simple did nothing

thats big difference in both context and events here

I don't understand how you can genuinely say Jaina wasn't part of the Alliance at the time, since she had literally commanded all Alliance forces on Kalimdor before her father, who outranked her, showed up. And you're right, she did nothing. Baine attacked Theramore and covered the Horde retreat even after warning Theramore of the attack. Jaina did less to help the Alliance than Baine did the Horde in their respective situations.

[Syegfryed]

Like I said, that's a matter of opinion. I don't think there's really any more to be said on that front.

objectively, Baine only brought shit to his people, so i take the chances with maghata

Yes. I don't want to work 20-hour days, but I'm willing to do so when I have to. There's a difference between not wanting to do something and being unwilling to do it. You said he was unwilling to do the things he did for the Horde. That's not the case.

thats seems exactly the definition of unwilling to me, you don't want but you do anyway

Yeah, the Horde Warchief asked him to defend his father's murderer in a trial, and he did so. He didn't object. I'm not sure how that's worse, given he's doing what the Horde has asked of him.

because he have no balls, and was obligated to defend his "father murderor"

That doesn't mean he's unwilling to defend the assaults on Lordaeron.

seems like it

You're saying that Sylvanas' attack on Gilneas under Garrosh's orders to establish a port (which is stupid given that we saw in the Battle of Lordaeron that the northern coast of Silverpine works fine for docking ships) wasn't helping the Horde?

helping the horde because you are obligated to do is not relevant to my point, i want to see altruism, commitment, desire to do thigns for your faction because you want the good of it, not because you will get something in return or because you are ordered to do so

Jaina was on the Council of Six and head of the Kirin Tor at the time.

not her city regardless

She was responsible for the blood elves as well as the high elves and humans and gnomes that were part of the Kirin Tor

no she was not, and she was deposed because she is not

If you want to go strictly off racial lines, you can, but then Magatha (who you seem to hold in high esteem as a tauren leader) is responsible for assassinating her own people, and you have no problem with that, so exiling people should be of no real concern.

jokes on you, im not talking about maghata, but from the tauren whow ant revenge because of the alliance attacks

I don't understand how you can genuinely say Jaina wasn't part of the Alliance at the time, since she had literally commanded all Alliance forces on Kalimdor

the alliance was in easter kingdoms, jaina took some refugees, she was not the alliance and didn't had to obey then until wtlk

And you're right, she did nothing. Baine attacked Theramore and covered the Horde retreat even after warning Theramore of the attack. Jaina did less to help the Alliance than Baine did the Horde in their respective situations.

you are doing false equivalence putting out the context, there was no war going on there, the orcs were not attacking the humans, theramore was independent, jaina just step aside to not die with then

Baine in other hand warned the enemy in the war, there was going to be an attack, and only fought because of fear

[mickybrighteyes]

The game literally shows him attacking (and seemingly killing) an Alliance soldier at Lordaeron in an in-game cinematic and signalling the retreat. You can say he favors Alliance. You can see he almost always supports Alliance. But saying he has never been shown to do things for the Horde is false.

well ok then... Because Baine at one point helped out some random hordie to see the light of day or accidentally killed a member of the Alliance (heaven forbid he actually intend such)... I guess I will concede he did help the horde then. But this remains some serious knitpicking.

[Niwes]

i am surprised that still a third of all ppl want Baine as Warchief (see poll). i am afraid of that ppl.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

i am surprised that still a third of all ppl want Baine as Warchief (see poll). i am afraid of that ppl.

Keep in mind Alliance players can vote. It's not hard to imagine an Alliance player who just does not like the Horde at all wanting some Alliance sycophant like Baine running the whole thing.

[Soon-TM]

i am surprised that still a third of all ppl want Baine as Warchief (see poll). i am afraid of that ppl.

I'd wager that most Baine voters main an Ally toon.

[Trassk]

I'd wager that most Baine voters main an Ally toon.

Yeah because their can only be two ways of looking at this isn't there? Black and white?
And we all know people only choose one faction to play as.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah because their can only be two ways of looking at this isn't there? Black and white?
And we all know people only choose one faction to play as.

I don't know how people can rally behind baine the guy is so hopelessly naive, just like Anduin. Neither should be close to any kind of leadership position

[Soon-TM]

Yeah because their can only be two ways of looking at this isn't there? Black and white?
And we all know people only choose one faction to play as.

That's what I said "most", my dear (failed) fallacy detective. Besides, the way the thing is posed is binary: either you like Baine, or you don't, your reasons notwithstanding. In my case, I certainly didn't roll Horde since !@#$ing Vanilla to be ruled by a furry version of Anduin.

[Trassk]

I don't know how people can rally behind baine the guy is so hopelessly naive, just like Anduin. Neither should be close to any kind of leadership position

Translation: "Characters wanting peaceful resolutions suck and I hate them! I want leaders to all be warmongers because that's cooler!"

No wonder blizzard can screw up the lore by only using the 'rule of cool', you lot eat it up.

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That's what I said "most", my dear (failed) fallacy detective. Besides, the way the thing is posed is binary: either you like Baine, or you don't, your reasons notwithstanding. In my case, I certainly didn't roll Horde since !@#$ing Vanilla to be ruled by a furry version of Anduin.

You base your want to play a faction based on something as shallow as who's leading it? Lol.
Love your act of being above it when your want to play a faction is based on something that shallow.

[mickybrighteyes]

Translation: "Characters wanting peaceful resolutions suck and I hate them! I want leaders to all be warmongers because that's cooler!"

Problem is that THIS peacemonger has also been shown killing his peers for not agreeing, abandoning his people to parlay with invaders, and hold fallen forces on the opposition as more moving than his own people's deaths.

The mess that is Baine isn't just a character that wants peaceful resolutions. He just stands against the horde at every story arch once it comes down to it.

[Combatbutler]

Translation: "Characters wanting peaceful resolutions suck and I hate them! I want leaders to all be warmongers because that's cooler!"

No wonder blizzard can screw up the lore by only using the 'rule of cool', you lot eat it up.

Pff as if blizz storytelling was never good, what I personally cannot stand are utterly naive fools, unwilling to compromise their worldview, when confronted with reality.

Baine most definitely fits into that category.

[Niwes]

Keep in mind Alliance players can vote. It's not hard to imagine an Alliance player who just does not like the Horde at all wanting some Alliance sycophant like Baine running the whole thing.

ah yes, ofc

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I'd wager that most Baine voters main an Ally toon.

see above (you are right, ofc)

[Heldamon]

Voting no is in my opinion a mistake.

Some people don't like Baine because he's a pacifist.
The truth is that Baine makes his decisions by the safety of not being the warchief and judges those that act while they probably have much more information about things that affect the faction.

So having him in a leading role where your decisions have to be fast and they do affect so many, it's the best way to create morally gray stories (Arthas).

[Gann Stonespire]

Voting no is in my opinion a mistake.

Some people don't like Baine because he's a pacifist.
The truth is that Baine makes his decisions by the safety of not being the warchief and judges those that act while they probably have much more information about things that affect the faction.

So having him in a leading role where your decisions have to be fast and they do affect so many, it's the best way to create morally gray stories (Arthas).

You do realize Baine was sitting on his ass when Alliance soldiers were firing ballistas at the Gates of Mulgore and it was an Orc who saved them. And Baine only got off his ass to exile the tauren who had repelled the Alliance invaders and stopped them from taking more lives from Horde civilians. Baine even exiled Jorn Skyseer, who helped Baine reclaim Thunderbluff.

[Heldamon]

That means that as a warchief he'll have to make better decisions and be accounted for them

[Grazrug]

That means that as a warchief he'll have to make better decisions and be accounted for them

Stop the propaganda act already.

Infracted.

[Soon-TM]

You base your want to play a faction based on something as shallow as who's leading it? Lol.
Love your act of being above it when your want to play a faction is based on something that shallow.

Of course, leaders are leaders for a reason, they set the whole actions and "tone" of the faction. Especially when Blizzard has never had the ability to meaningfully portray each race's whereabouts (if at all) besides their faction alignment.

[Trassk]

Of course, leaders are leaders for a reason, they set the whole actions and "tone" of the faction. Especially when Blizzard has never had the ability to meaningfully portray each race's whereabouts (if at all) besides their faction alignment.

Except, they have. If someone plays the game and follows the lore and characters, you end up finding certain races are not defined by their leader, but by lots of other characters within the race factions. Orcs have had multiple leaders of different mind sets but you don't just define them by that leader of the week. Most normal people play a race or faction because of an overarching theme

[Soon-TM]

an overarching theme

What is the overarching theme of the Horde today, may I ask?