Umm new talents? Pepperidge Farm Remembers

[clevin]

L
If they did them by spec then that's 34 spells in WoD, 36 spells in Legion, 36 spells in BfA. So that's 106 spells. This number is the same if they'd added another talent row.

So yeah, 50 new spells is pretty much what you're asking for.

Holy fuck. You can't be this dense. Rather obviously I meant "50 new spells per class."

If they can't add a spell per spec per expansion, they're fucking incompetent.

[Will]

Their plan all along is to stop adding things they have to balance in the long term, that's why you keep getting abilities usable for that expansion and that expansion only.
From a design perspective it's a great system, but you know... we have to complain anyway, right?

That's a terrible excuse. Blizzard just suck or maybe even don't try properly at balancing. It could even be deliberate.

Classes were pruned, then they made balancing way more complicated by adding essences, az powers and all that malarkey to the mix, so the addition of a few more talents is hardly game breakingly difficult to tune

But fundamentally, class balance can be achieved despite the inclusion of new talents by merely tweaking their power until it feels right. Blizzard just plain suck at this or choose not to try very hard. That's not a good justification for not giving us fun stuff. It's a sign they need to try harder instead of making excuses.

[Relapses]

That's a terrible excuse. Blizzard just suck or maybe even don't try properly at balancing. It could even be deliberate.

Classes were pruned, then they made balancing way more complicated by adding essences, az powers and all that malarkey to the mix, so the addition of a few more talents is hardly game breakingly difficult to tune

But fundamentally, class balance can be achieved despite the inclusion of new talents by merely tweaking their power until it feels right. Blizzard just plain suck at this or choose not to try very hard. That's not a good justification for not giving us fun stuff. It's a sign they need to try harder instead of making excuses.

Try harder to do...what? Because really, balance for most WoW players looks like this:

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

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I think even a casual player who has some basic clue of the game would have been pissed if they received Prydaz during the first month of Legion.
This was probably even harder on casual players because the dropchance of Legendaries during the first months of Legion was utterly abysmal, i got my 2nd legendary weeks after the research to equip the 2nd one was already done, as a hardcore player.

Can't imagine how a casual player would have felt if he played like 2-3 months and merely received a single one, a terrible one at that.

I think it's one of those myths like "Casual players like Titanforing because they get awesome stuff sometimes", i think in terms of reward structure, there isn't a huge amount of difference between a casual player and a hardcore one as far as preference is concerned.

No one likes overly RNG reward systems, they're just bad.

Are you sure? There were more than a few Legendaries which would totally change rotations and were more than just optional goodies. Yeah, a casual player might get Prydaz and be disappointed but if all that player ever does is WQs, it's a lot less negatively impactful than it would be on a player in a Mythic raiding guild struggling on a boss with a tight DPS check.

I also wouldn't say "no one likes RNG systems." Plenty of lucky people love these systems. It's just that the Skinner box philosophy of modern WoW introduces far more opportunities for potential disappointment. Yet, human nature almost compels some people to keep trying for that "perfect" opportunity. It's... one of the less compelling aspects of the game but it does look like Blizzard may be moving in a slightly different direction in SL.

[Kralljin]

Are you sure? There were more than a few Legendaries which would totally change rotations and were more than just optional goodies. Yeah, a casual player might get Prydaz and be disappointed but if all that player ever does is WQs, it's a lot less negatively impactful than it would be on a player in a Mythic raiding guild struggling on a boss with a tight DPS check.

It's more about the principle.
I think people that are doing World quest are also fundamentally interested in improving their character, since it's at complete random which legendary you can get, that will also piss those off if they happen to receive a subpar legendary.

Minor sidenote, Dps checks are nonexistant since Legion.

I also wouldn't say "no one likes RNG systems." Plenty of lucky people love these systems.

The problem is once you start to implement layers of RNG (=Titanforging) or the chance for an item is so abysmal and the system which is supposed to fix this (=Bad luck protection) being basically a hidden mechanic, that's where you reach a point where most people say "no thanks".

The fact that Blizzard ditched the entire Legendary system was among other things due to the RNG factor, took them the entirety of BfA to realize that people hated the acquisition.

It's... one of the less compelling aspects of the game but it does look like Blizzard may be moving in a slightly different direction in SL.

Discussion may be getting a bit offtrack here, but i personally just see them taking babysteps.

Systems such as Titanforging or corruption need fuck off, they're not fun and just a syndrome of the fact that gear as a progression system is failing because Blizzard started to shower people in gear.

[apustus]

Yeah add more things I want more thing in my spellbook I don't even bother putting on my bars fuck yeah ! !! !!

[Demeia]

LOL, hardly. I had quite a bit of fun collecting them and using them to crush people on meters during raids and in WPVP. I can think of a dozen things that had more of a negative impact on the game than Legiondaries, but that's not the topic here. Sounds like you just had a lot of bad luck.

I do miss getting new talents! One of my favorite things about expansions used to be reading what the tier set bonuses would be and what new talents we'd be getting. And now none of that happens anymore, and people "wonder" why the game is losing players. They're taking all the cool shit out and inserting turn-n-burn systems each expansion.

Legos weren't so bad it was that they were stupidly stingy with how quickly you got them. The whole system would have played better if they'd built in the lego alt token much earlier and increased the drop rate dramatically.

[Soon-TM]

Spotted the Legion fan.

For the record, Legiondaries were the single shittiest idea Blizzard ever introduced into this game.

Implementation was a !@#$fest, but the idea is solid.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you think new talents that would inevitably be cookie cutter and have to be rebalanced multiple times every patch would be better than the essence system I can't relate.
Character customization is much better this expansion than WoD, without any doubt in my mind.

[Splenda]

I sort of wish we had a different talent system, like a tree, just still very short. I believe the first shrunk the trees in... Cata? Something like that.

[Relapses]

It's more about the principle.
I think people that are doing World quest are also fundamentally interested in improving their character, since it's at complete random which legendary you can get, that will also piss those off if they happen to receive a subpar legendary.

Minor sidenote, Dps checks are nonexistant since Legion.



The problem is once you start to implement layers of RNG (=Titanforging) or the chance for an item is so abysmal and the system which is supposed to fix this (=Bad luck protection) being basically a hidden mechanic, that's where you reach a point where most people say "no thanks".

The fact that Blizzard ditched the entire Legendary system was among other things due to the RNG factor, took them the entirety of BfA to realize that people hated the acquisition.



Discussion may be getting a bit offtrack here, but i personally just see them taking babysteps.

Systems such as Titanforging or corruption need fuck off, they're not fun and just a syndrome of the fact that gear as a progression system is failing because Blizzard started to shower people in gear.

I think you and I are essentially saying the same thing from slightly different angles. I agree that RNG is bad but RNG is worse when the only protection against it is playing an unhealthy amount to compensate.

[Polygons]

They homogenized everything for esports bux and they're too afraid to change anything.

[Thetruth1400]

Why NOT add a new talent row every 10 levels?

Because it's unnecessary and will clutter things up all in the name of "But I demand a new talent every 10 levels!"

If that's beyond the capability of the team to manage, fire them and hire competent designers.

I highly doubt it's beyond their capability, just they realize, once again, it's not needed.

We're not talking about adding a lot... just 3 new choices every 10 levels (in the 120 level scheme).

That is a lot. 3 x 12 = 36 per spec x 36 specs = 1,296 different talents overall. If you accept we have 7 rows right now, that means 5 more each or 15 x 36 = 540 more talents left to create. Yes, they can be similar across specs and classes, but they'd still all have to be created, just to satiate your desire for something new every 10 levels.

Likewise, to do that, it would most likely mean stripping out core abilities, just to satisfy the demand. Do you really want to be auto attacking until level 10 where you get to finally decide between something as simple as Slam, Mortal Strike, or Devastate as your choice because "Hey, we're giving you a choice each 10 levels"?

Lastly, as I've said many times, it's just unnecessary. What exactly do you want them to add? Another on use CD? Another core rotation ability just for the sake of another button to press? Situational choices that rarely get used because they weren't needed but were given just to fulfill a quota of new ability?

[therealstegblob]

I liked Legiondaries. You didn't. That isn't semantics, that's an opinion. And yes, opinions can be argued if you one chooses.

I thought they were a great idea that kept me playing well after content was consumed because I wanted the good ones on my alts. End of discussion, it's off-topic.

That's not the semantic I'm talking about, lol. I'm not talking about personal opinion, either. Forums require a level of reading comprehension that I'd urge you to get, so you can contribute better than this.

I strongly believe an objective argument can be made towards Legiondaries, regardless of personal enjoyment of them. Like I said, I enjoyed my legendaries as well, but it doesn't mean I think they were good or healthy for the game. Lots of people grinded hopelessly in a Legion Lottery system to try and desperately get the legendaries they needed, and either got them after soul crushing grinds or even never at all. This would be slightly different (comparable to Benthic gear) if it was only a single patch affected by this, but it was the entirety of the expansion. You were either set for the whole ride or fucked depending on if you got legendaries early on and which legendaries they ended up being, and you're truly hard pressed to make an argument against that. Saying WELL I LIKED IT11111 is just an opinion that ignores any objectivity that can be applied to this situation.

You can say you like being shot in the foot because you enjoy counting all the pieces of scattered skin and bone, but if most people are finding that it's problematic for them then maybe personal opinion stops being an end-all defense, huh?

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I sort of wish we had a different talent system, like a tree, just still very short. I believe the first shrunk the trees in... Cata? Something like that.

Yes. Cataclysm was the first (and really the only) time they revamped the talent tree. I forget exactly what they did, but they overhauled speccs in general. Druids got Guardian as a fourth specc and at level 10 you actually had to choose a specc, meaning people were now officially "Sub Rogues" or "Frost Mages", rather than "Mut build Rogue" or "Mage mostly specced Frost".

Talent trees have their own issues but given a choice between the two of them, I think trees are at least more fun. It feels nice to level up and feel like you have a talent point to invest somewhere, as opposed to levels pretty much just being static white noise.

[Black Goat]

*snip*

Nope, I liked them, you didn't. Matter of opinion, nothing more. There's plenty of people on here who loved Legiondaries, and plenty who hated them. There's no objective argument against them or for them. That's like saying, "There's an objective argument against the color blue because I don't like it!"

There's really not some super complex word salad that's necessary to explain that. Oh, you urge me for better reading comprehension? Ironic, coming from the person who doesn't have a firm grasp on semantics. Haha.

[123youshowme]

Holy fuck. You can't be this dense. Rather obviously I meant "50 new spells per class."

If they can't add a spell per spec per expansion, they're fucking incompetent.

Or, hold on, they introduced spells in every expansion because that's what the class lacked in the previous expansion.

There comes a point where you have everything you need.


Hunters needed steady shot. Mages don't need frostfire bolt.

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Because it's unnecessary and will clutter things up all in the name of "But I demand a new talent every 10 levels!"



I highly doubt it's beyond their capability, just they realize, once again, it's not needed.



That is a lot. 3 x 12 = 36 per spec x 36 specs = 1,296 different talents overall. If you accept we have 7 rows right now, that means 5 more each or 15 x 36 = 540 more talents left to create. Yes, they can be similar across specs and classes, but they'd still all have to be created, just to satiate your desire for something new every 10 levels.

Likewise, to do that, it would most likely mean stripping out core abilities, just to satisfy the demand. Do you really want to be auto attacking until level 10 where you get to finally decide between something as simple as Slam, Mortal Strike, or Devastate as your choice because "Hey, we're giving you a choice each 10 levels"?

Lastly, as I've said many times, it's just unnecessary. What exactly do you want them to add? Another on use CD? Another core rotation ability just for the sake of another button to press? Situational choices that rarely get used because they weren't needed but were given just to fulfill a quota of new ability?

yes that's exactly what they seem to want

[BananaHandsB]

Essences, traits, etc. It's all the same really. Honestly it just looks like your looking for an easy complaint without really thinking it through.

[therealstegblob]

Nope, I liked them, you didn't. Matter of opinion, nothing more. There's plenty of people on here who loved Legiondaries, and plenty who hated them. There's no objective argument against them or for them. That's like saying, "There's an objective argument against the color blue because I don't like it!"

There's really not some super complex word salad that's necessary to explain that. Oh, you urge me for better reading comprehension? Ironic, coming from the person who doesn't have a firm grasp on semantics. Haha.

If your best argument is seriously just "lol u dont have a argument its like saying blue111", then yeah, we're done here.

[Powerogue]

Their plan all along is to stop adding things they have to balance in the long term, that's why you keep getting abilities usable for that expansion and that expansion only.
From a design perspective it's a great system, but you know... we have to complain anyway, right?

It's mainly that it creates things that the class becomes dependent on to feel whole, that then vanish the next expansion.

I'll never get over this, OUTLAW ROGUES. NEED. THAT. COOLDOWN BACK.

[Toby451]

Essences, traits, etc. It's all the same really. Honestly it just looks like your looking for an easy complaint without really thinking it through.

Shhh, you might ruin the illusion.

[Absintheminded]

The class balance throughout BFA should make it clear that Blizzard is on autopilot with WoW. They're not interested in putting forth the time and effort to make the game special anymore. Just look at 8.3. Tons of recycled assets. Nyalotha is just a raid, a wasted opportunity just like Argus, Nazjatar, etc. Shadowlands will be no different. I'll still end up preordering and leveling up a mechagnome, though /shrug