How Long Until Pay To Win Happens?

[iinverse]

Just because a player CAN buy boosts that doesnt make the game "pay to win".

For a game to be pay to win:
1) The person paying needs to have an ADVANTAGE over people not paying
2) Needs to be mandatory by design or in the very least EXTREMELY inconvenient.
3) Entire community is affected by it

People in this thread:
"Players can buy boosts so the game is already pay to win....because they are paying to win"

Literal much? Are this people reading "pay" "to" "win" and think a game is it just because you CAN do it?
Just because you CAN doesnt mean the game is.

Its something like "pay 2 get".
You can pay and get 455 gear. Will you win with it? Depends on you.
You can not pay and stay with lower gear. Will you win with it? Depends on you too.
So no p2w here regardless of "boosts".

[callipygoustp]

Pay to win was, finally, added yesterday.

[CaptainV]

Considering the Token is already a form of pay to win granted they significantly reduced the cash injection but yeah, pay to win exists, tokens legit let you buy gear that can bypass item level farming with enough money and investment.

Yes you may need Azerite chest/shoulder/headpiece gear but frankly thats a small bother, the rest you can legitimately buy your way through.

And no, im not advocating people should do it, if you really wanna get catchup gear, farm benthic, its free, but yes, paying for gear is an option for some who really cant be arsed.

Sooo, yes, pay to win already exists, in a form.

If you mean, will wow ever go f2p?

No.

Will wow go buy to play though?... That- I imagine might actually happen, mainly in Retail, with the kicker being if you pay sub you get access to classic wow.

[Lolites]

yes in a single patch with 3 unique mount frames has had more new and interesting mounts since...mage tower? Thank you for making my point.

no, i was comparing just 8.3 bcs its more than shop in long time... bfa had a lot of new model mounts (brutosaur, bloodtick, hyena, hippo, crocodile, toads etc.)
btw mechagon only had 3 unique mount models, naz had another 2 (or3? im not sure) and there were new pvp mounts models so thats 7-8 new unique models mounts in8.3 ...
and id thank you not to twist my words and nitpick to make your argument LOOK stronger

- - - Updated - - -

Considering the Token is already a form of pay to win granted they significantly reduced the cash injection but yeah, pay to win exists, tokens legit let you buy gear that can bypass item level farming with enough money and investment.

Yes you may need Azerite chest/shoulder/headpiece gear but frankly thats a small bother, the rest you can legitimately buy your way through.

And no, im not advocating people should do it, if you really wanna get catchup gear, farm benthic, its free, but yes, paying for gear is an option for some who really cant be arsed.

Sooo, yes, pay to win already exists, in a form.

If you mean, will wow ever go f2p?

No.

Will wow go buy to play though?... That- I imagine might actually happen, mainly in Retail, with the kicker being if you pay sub you get access to classic wow.

a lot of that gear (and no, you cant buy high ilvl in all slots but azerite) is high ilvl only, with stats so shitty that its worse than upgraded benthic, how is that pay2WIN? its barely bay2catch up

[Polygons]

Probably never considering the success of Fortnites model

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

You can't win this game anymore. Those who bought Celestial Steed in 2010 won the game already.

[AmazonDruid]

Supposedly that's the reason the Longboi's moving to the BMAH, to fOrCe people to buy tokens...

Already bough 15 this week... and i had to buy another account in Canada because wow tokens are disabled in Brazil.

[Kaykay]

Thats like saying your boss is paying prostitutes just because he is paying you wage.

PayToWin = An advantage over other players. For example, bypassing a large time investment by paying.

the time it takes to farm 10 wow tokens ingame per week for the average player is a great many hours of playing.
Or you can just pay money.

Is gold even paytowin? can you get an advantage ingame from having alot of gold? That depends on what you can obtain using gold.

In todays case with crossrealm raiding and boost groups, gold allows you to access:
The best gear in the game,
the rarest mounts in the game,
the rarest pets in the game,
all crafting professions maxxed,
all the consumeables you would ever want.

Each of above points is skippable by paying gold, gold you didn't spend time farming, gold you payed for.

You'd have to be completely ignorant to not think wowtokens give players with money an advantage over players who dont. (paytowin)

Say two players start playing today, one starts at level 1 with the expansion boost, the other does the same, except every week he can buy 10 tokens averaging 3million gold per week for no effort.

Which of these two players will reach endgame mythic first?
Which of these two players will have the best startingpoint for getting bis pvp gear?
Which of these two players will max their professions first?
Which of these two players will start farming their weekly m+ at max difficulty first?

in an mmo where everything is available for gold since raidguilds and individual players need gold for consumeables and enchants, being able to buy gold is an advantage. Being able to skip hundreds of hours of farming by clicking a "wowtoken" button is the definition of paying for an advantage :P

[GreenJesus]

PayToWin = An advantage over other players. For example, bypassing a large time investment by paying.

the time it takes to farm 10 wow tokens ingame per week for the average player is a great many hours of playing.
Or you can just pay money.

Is gold even paytowin? can you get an advantage ingame from having alot of gold? That depends on what you can obtain using gold.

In todays case with crossrealm raiding and boost groups, gold allows you to access:
The best gear in the game,
the rarest mounts in the game,
the rarest pets in the game,
all crafting professions maxxed,
all the consumeables you would ever want.

Each of above points is skippable by paying gold, gold you didn't spend time farming, gold you payed for.

You'd have to be completely ignorant to not think wowtokens give players with money an advantage over players who dont. (paytowin)

Say two players start playing today, one starts at level 1 with the expansion boost, the other does the same, except every week he can buy 10 tokens averaging 3million gold per week for no effort.

Which of these two players will reach endgame mythic first?
Which of these two players will have the best startingpoint for getting bis pvp gear?
Which of these two players will max their professions first?
Which of these two players will start farming their weekly m+ at max difficulty first?

in an mmo where everything is available for gold since raidguilds and individual players need gold for consumeables and enchants, being able to buy gold is an advantage. Being able to skip hundreds of hours of farming by clicking a "wowtoken" button is the definition of paying for an advantage :P

BuT cLAsH oF ClAnS iS pOsSiBlE tO pLaY FrEe sO ItS NoT pAy To WiN.

Just wait the full 9 days for your archer tower to upgrade and just wait for the gems to spawn from bushes occasionally! Always has to be some of those people that argue that for every game.

[Augusta138]

'forcing us to buy tokens' When did this happen?

Making a mount unobtainable come Shadowlands is apparently pushing all of the playerbase in to buying tokens.

Logic. /sarcasm off.

[Elim Garak]

It's already pay to win. You can't even level up beyond level 20 without paying.

[Xorzor]

A possible P2W future...

Instant Max-Level: $89.95

Full set of gear from the previous-to-current raid: $129.95

Full set of transmog from an old dungeon or raid (depends on age of content, newer costs more): $55.95 - $155.95

Unlock a specific achievement (with exceptions): $24.95 - 155.95

All heirlooms unlocked: $99.95

Unlock all mounts usable by your character that are still obtainable: $115.95

Unlock all toys: $49.95

Reset instance lock: $99.95

Unlock flying: $79.95

Double loot chance drops: $30.00

Triple loot chance drops (stacks with double): $60.00

Start with 10 stacks of Determination in LFR (only applies to buyer): $100.00

Ultimate Battle-Training Stone: $9.95 each


Activision's sense of greed: Priceless

Blizzard's integrity: Non-existent

[Mendzia]

Some people seem to think because the long neck mount is going to the BMAU in SL that they're "forcing" people to buy tokens to sell for gold to buy the mount before it goes away

Give us a single other good reason why would they do that?
'Forcing' here is slightly wrong term... i would say... provoke...? or mby... stimulate...? or whatever other similar word.

[Jagscorpion]

PayToWin = An advantage over other players. For example, bypassing a large time investment by paying.

the time it takes to farm 10 wow tokens ingame per week for the average player is a great many hours of playing.
Or you can just pay money.

Is gold even paytowin? can you get an advantage ingame from having alot of gold? That depends on what you can obtain using gold.

In todays case with crossrealm raiding and boost groups, gold allows you to access:
The best gear in the game,
the rarest mounts in the game,
the rarest pets in the game,
all crafting professions maxxed,
all the consumeables you would ever want.

Each of above points is skippable by paying gold, gold you didn't spend time farming, gold you payed for.

You'd have to be completely ignorant to not think wowtokens give players with money an advantage over players who dont. (paytowin)

Say two players start playing today, one starts at level 1 with the expansion boost, the other does the same, except every week he can buy 10 tokens averaging 3million gold per week for no effort.

Which of these two players will reach endgame mythic first?
Which of these two players will have the best startingpoint for getting bis pvp gear?
Which of these two players will max their professions first?
Which of these two players will start farming their weekly m+ at max difficulty first?

in an mmo where everything is available for gold since raidguilds and individual players need gold for consumeables and enchants, being able to buy gold is an advantage. Being able to skip hundreds of hours of farming by clicking a "wowtoken" button is the definition of paying for an advantage :P

I typically hear that type of system talked about as pay for convenience. First blizz isn't directly involved so there's no direct power increase. Second, everything you listed is available to all players. The only advantage a mythic raider gets over their nonpaying doppleganger is time saved. They have access to the same content and gear. Wow is not designed with such a long grind that those things are unfeasable for someone playing normally.

As an example, Warframe is not p2w because everything obtainable through plat(the premium currency) is equally obtainable through normal gameplay and player trading.

[Raven]

It has already happened.

Step 1: buy gold with a mighty slash of your credit card.
Step 2: buy 450 items from the AH with said gold.
Step 3: profit????

It's just a lil' more expensive than $19.99 though

Then Wow has always been pay to win, and same with every other Mmo´s to since goldsellers was a thing long before Blizzard started the shop, and if Blizzard would remove the shop, goldsellers would still be there so would still be pay to win.

[Capultro]

People, it seems that some of you don't understand what is happening here. Paytowin is happening now, you can buy gold to buy high-item auction items, sometimes even weapons.

[exochaft]

PayToWin = An advantage over other players. For example, bypassing a large time investment by paying.

The issue is that this behavior existed before WoW tokens were even a thing, and the introduction of the WoW token (while Blizz does make some money off of this) was addressing a black market issue that was around before their existence. For example, I know people that paid real money to guilds to run them through raids and give them gear, despite it being against ToS, and the guilds would either directly use the money or they would buy gold with it from 3rd party vendors. Before Blizz offered a safer way to do such transactions, would that still be considered Blizz promoting pay to win?

The real problem is that your definition of P2W is likely way too broad, as it includes player behavior outside of the company's control. While you described someone buying WoW tokens to get all that gear, I used to have friends that would get all those same benefits without having to pay any gold as they were friends of the guild. They'd log on toward the end of a raid tier, we'd bring them along and give them all the gear as no one needed it, and it didn't cost them a single gold.

A more accurate definition of P2W is that the only feasible way to quickly and directly gain power in the game is to pay real money to the game company. At best, WoW tokens are an indirect way to gain power, but it still requires transactions with players who have already "beat" the content. In other words, in order for WoW tokens to be P2W, it requires people who have already "beat" the game w/o paying to win. For example, if no one has beat the last raid boss in 8.3 on mythic, no amount of WoW tokens is going to get you a Cutting Edge achievement before everyone else. At that point, it completely ceases to be a Blizz issue, as it's the player base that is allowing people to pay them to get an advantage. If we're holding Blizz accountable for any player-originated transactions and labeling them as P2W, then every game that allow multiplayer is pretty much a P2W game (which is ludicrous). As a simple example, your definition of P2W would call me buying some herbs off the AH to make pots for raid as a P2W scheme, when it's clearly player driven transactions.

Best bet is to say that WoW tokens aren't P2W, but more of a time saver if anything. Only thing they do is save you time, as anything WoW tokens provide you can get in the game already by yourself. While people can carry you to victory and gear you up, paying gold/WoW tokens are not mandatory at all to your success.

[iinverse]

Which of these two players will reach endgame mythic first?

Method.

Which of these two players will have the best startingpoint for getting bis pvp gear?

Skillest one. Gear matter the least in pvp.

Which of these two players will max their professions first?

People max out professions in 1-2 days of expansion starting. So maybe your player with tokens will catch a hour or two here.

Which of these two players will start farming their weekly m+ at max difficulty first?

Skillest one.
You do not need super gear to start doing 10 keys, 400+ is enough (its a couple of days in hazj + mech + wqs + some m0).

[Lora]

pay to win already happened when they introduced the tokens.

[Kaykay]

First blizz isn't directly involved so there's no direct power increase.

They are though, they introduce the option to skip the goldgrind by allowing other players to sell their gold for gametime, this was not the case prior to the token (except for 3rd party sites which is against tos)

Second, everything you listed is available to all players.

It's not about it not being available, it's about me being able to skip months of playing, to skip straight to the best rewards in the game. by dropping a fat stack of dollars on the game.

Battlefront 2 was a huge scandal exactly because they used this system of progression, making all ingame characters unlockable through months of playing the game, or you could pay 60$ per character. The users who dont spend money will have a disadvantage in reaching any goal in the game versus someone who spends money.

And that is the definition of pay to win.

you pay for the game, and you play. There should be no way to buy advantages inside the game for real money, otherwise you're on the paytowin path.

PayToWin is not a binary, it's a slider, from having to spend 30$ on stash tabs in POE(a free to play game) to play the game efficiently, to the middle-ing character boost to last expansions cap, all the way to max level characters, currency/progression.

WoW has stepped into the deep end of paytowin, since you're encouraged to buy 10 tokens a week, untill you've reached your goals (Whatever they may be) and that's the most efficient way of playing the game.