Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Gaidax]

Somebody who is equally as skilled as you, who puts in more work, will get the raid spot. This forces you to put in the time to farm AP, do arenas, or M+ per week. There are even people who will spam run M+ in order to get titanforged and socketed gear who will, in turn have an advantage over you. Why would you be brought to raids if they do that on not only their main, but their alt characters also?

No, they won't. I'm with the guild for I think 4 years soon. The only way I'm going is by my choice and none else.

We're a guild filled by 30 years old with families and children, we don't have time for that shit to begin with, that's why we raid 2 days a week and 3 hours flat and have no other requirements whatsoever.

The only real requirement is decent skill and not being a shit. That's all it takes to clear Mythic raids at 2 night schedule.

[Gorsameth]

I did mention about LIMITED attempts on bosses a while back.... Limit attempts should be account wide so if you can't beat the boss, wait next reset to analyze and get better doing on that boss.

Oh so now guilds will have to require their raiders to own and pay for multiple accounts. Yeah that will surely improve the situations... /s

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If they can design heroic to flex, they can design mythic to flex, is my answer to this.

I don't really care about content created for the top 1% of players, but I do care that my guild that has fielded 13-17 or so for at least 2 expansions now, never gets to do mythic, even though we could get at least mid-way through it ( we did when we used to have more raiders).

Ehm... they failed at designing 'Mythic' (old Heroic) for 2 group sizes. (10/25) yet you somehow thing they can do Mythic for 15+ different sizes because they are doing it for Heroic, despite all the comments in here about how Heroic is to easy making the jump to harder Mythic bosses to steep?

[Tradu]

If they can design heroic to flex, they can design mythic to flex, is my answer to this.

I don't really care about content created for the top 1% of players, but I do care that my guild that has fielded 13-17 or so for at least 2 expansions now, never gets to do mythic, even though we could get at least mid-way through it ( we did when we used to have more raiders).

They can't design heroic flex. The scaling is fucked in tons of ways every tier. Keep that shit out of mythic.

[Gaidax]

I should have said that I'm talking about clearing it as quickly as possible from release.

Here's the thing - nobody is chasing after you really. It can be casually done in couple of months with almost raidlogging WoD style as is.

Whatever you said is a thing for maybe 50 guilds in the world (if that), the rest are really pretty chill when it comes to that. You aren't dropping core members, just because newcomer pushes shit hardcore. Why I don't think even within top 50 it's really done.

[Tradu]

This is the result of WF/TF and M+ systems. High end guilds can farm incredible amount of gear before even going into the raid that they need to tune the dps and mechanic checks hard enough to counter the amount of gear people have.

Before high end guilds could kill end bosses with 5-10 ilvl "disadvantage" to what the boss was designed for (aka when "casual" mythic guilds could kill it), and this meant week 2 or 3 kills because guilds couldn't endlessly farm mythic equivalent gear.
Now high end guilds are(effectively, hello sockets and stuff like benthic) already at the designed ilvl of the boss when they reach it and because of this the boss needs to be tuned far tighter than it used to be. For High end guilds the tune is effectively the same, but for everyone else it just got more difficult to progress and kill the boss due to not being able to over gear during their 10+ week progress.

The solution is simple. Kill WF/TF system(s) and limit unlimited gearing methods (M+ and whatever else is to come)

For a perfect example of this, look at Crucible of Storms. A raid that got released when everybody, not just top guilds, was already effectively power capped. They had to tune it so hard initially that most guilds straight up skipped it, and it had to be nerfed heavily multiple times before it became reasonable for most guilds to even attempt killing the bosses.

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I did mention about LIMITED attempts on bosses a while back.... Limit attempts should be account wide so if you can't beat the boss, wait next reset to analyze and get better doing on that boss.

Limited attempts are a horrible system. Losing attempts to ninja pulls, DCs etc causes completely unnecessary drama purely because of an arbitrary cap on attempts. Also, account wide cap wouldn't do shit, people would just have their characters on multiple accounts.

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Here's the thing - nobody is chasing after you really. It can be casually done in couple of months with almost raidlogging WoD style as is.

Whatever you said is a thing for maybe 50 guilds in the world (if that), the rest are really pretty chill when it comes to that. You aren't dropping core members, just because newcomer pushes shit hardcore. Why I don't think even within top 50 it's really done.

You bring the guy who gives you the highest chance of killing the boss. If that's the new guy, so be it.

[Gaidax]

You bring the guy who gives you the highest chance of killing the boss. If that's the new guy, so be it.

We already had quite a few recruits over the years who were very promising and then promptly quit the game after 1 tier. That's why we prefer stable core members you can rely on over some new superstar that we know little about.

Things are not that simple really. Your mileage may wary, but for us it's not that cut and dry, especially because we are much more casual overall anyway, after all we do whatever we do with flat 6 hours per week and never more no matter what.

[Wilfire]

This is the direct result of Blizzard fostering elitism in mythic raiding.

People don't care about killing the bosses and having a good time. They care about being "better" than other mythic raiders and having better world ranks, better parses etc. So nerfs can't happen because it "devalues" progress and mythic can't be of reasonable difficulty because then it would be for "casuals".

Guess what? When you cater to people like this, the combined elitism and overly high difficulty drive people away. Eventually the elitists start turning on themselves until only people with unhealthy obsession with world rankings and parses remain and the common woman/man has long since quit mythic raiding.

That's what happened and I fucking hate it. People in my guild ask me why I raid if I don't want to push rankings or parses. I raid because I like 20 player teamplay and I like challenging bosses. I couldn't give less of a shit whether other people have cleared this content or not. But for these people it's all about being better than others rather than playing for the content. And Blizzard is dumb enough to cater to them.

[Gaidax]

People don't care about killing the bosses and having a good time.

People care about great deal many of different things. This age old MMO-C bullshit where you have this "people care for X, that's why Y" should be dead by now.

It's almost the level of BS that "WoW loses subs because this X thing I personally don't like (and thus nobody likes)" theories.

[Tradu]

People care about great deal many of different things. This age old MMO-C bullshit where you have this "people care for X, that's why Y" should be dead by now.

It's almost the level of BS that "WoW loses subs because this X thing I personally don't like (and thus nobody likes)" theories.

"Having a good time" is also so vague and subjective that it's really meaningless.

[Wilfire]

People care about great deal many of different things. This age old MMO-C bullshit where you have this "people care for X, that's why Y" should be dead by now.

It's almost the level of BS that "WoW loses subs because this X thing I personally don't like (and thus nobody likes)" theories.

I don't know dude, you don't sound like you've ever interacted with the mythic raiding community.

[Tradu]

I don't know dude, you don't sound like you've ever interacted with the mythic raiding community.

There isn't one unified "mythic raiding community".

[Wilfire]

There isn't one unified "mythic raiding community".

You don't sound like you've interacted with the mythic raiding community either.

[Tradu]

You don't sound like you've interacted with the mythic raiding community either.

Again, there isn't one. There's tons of different communities that all raid mythic at different levels, in different regions, in different languages, on different classes.

[apustus]

This is the direct result of Blizzard fostering elitism in mythic raiding.

People don't care about killing the bosses and having a good time. They care about being "better" than other mythic raiders and having better world ranks, better parses etc. So nerfs can't happen because it "devalues" progress and mythic can't be of reasonable difficulty because then it would be for "casuals".

Guess what? When you cater to people like this, the combined elitism and overly high difficulty drive people away. Eventually the elitists start turning on themselves until only people with unhealthy obsession with world rankings and parses remain and the common woman/man has long since quit mythic raiding.

That's what happened and I fucking hate it. People in my guild ask me why I raid if I don't want to push rankings or parses. I raid because I like 20 player teamplay and I like challenging bosses. I couldn't give less of a shit whether other people have cleared this content or not. But for these people it's all about being better than others rather than playing for the content. And Blizzard is dumb enough to cater to them.

>People can't derive fun from being competitive

Ok

[Kralljin]

I wouldn't say flex would ever work out but I would say for the vast majority of players who clear mythic content the switch from 10 to 20 wasn't really worth it.

The problem is that we don't know how a 10man Mythic mode would look with the current encounters.

I think it's no secret to say that the quality of raid encounters has dipped since Legion, having an additional factor that made a lot of mechanics a no go would make things even more difficult from a design PoV.

It just makes the entire mode more likely to become an absolute joke or terribly overtuned, which isn't that great on both ends.

If they can design heroic to flex, they can design mythic to flex, is my answer to this.

And as said, certain encounters do not work.

Take G'huun for example, that encounter was already a pain on heroic with 10 people because 4 people are busy handling those orbs, that's 40% of your raid doing nothing in a 10man group.
Same goes for a Boss like Mekkatorque, having three people do nothing is a huge thing in a 10man raid, not so much in 20man.

Not to mention that certain mechanics flat out not work, doing Mythic Jaina without a Lock would be a shit show, you'd have to design an encounter that is either completely different or an absolute joke in terms of numbers.
You simply can't downscale every mechanic down to 10 people and expect it works just as well.

Heroic simply has enough leeway in terms of numbers to get away with it and doesn't feature any mechanics that require specific class abilities.

[Tradu]

The problem is that we don't know how a 10man Mythic mode would look with the current encounters.

I think it's no secret to say that the quality of raid encounters has dipped since Legion, having an additional factor that made a lot of mechanics a no go would make things even more difficult from a design PoV.



And as said, certain encounters do not work.

Take G'huun for example, that encounter was already a pain on heroic with 10 people because 4 people are busy handling those orbs, that's 40% of your raid doing nothing in a 10man group.
Same goes for a Boss like Mekkatorque, having three people do nothing is a huge thing in a 10man raid, not so much in 20man.

Not to mention that certain mechanics flat out not work, doing Mythic Jaina without a Lock would be a shit show, you'd have to design an encounter that is either completely different or an absolute joke in terms of numbers.
You simply can't downscale every mechanic down to 10 people and expect it works just as well.

And then there's the opposite extreme like Za'qul trash which casts like 8 Dreads on 30man or something absurd(but the boss itself is fine). Spreading also gets harder with more people(obviously), so mechanics like that would either require a huge boss room or weird scaling on the spread distance.

[potis]

My guild gets AotC by the second week... we’re still 4/8M

That only shows HC is undertuned and gear carries you, while Mythic EP is tuned higher than usual after a few bosses.

Its the same reasoning why many guilds have 3/X Mythic at time, and no AoTC when the HC last boss is a bit out of control at times.

Its not something Blizzard can do, they can tune HC higher, and cockblock hundreds of HC guilds, or tune Mythic lower and we have Xavius result of thousand so guilds killing it, and then disbanding at 3rd boss in Nighthold.

[Talrath]

Its the hardest content, its supposed to be hard. The dps need to be on spot, the healing needs to be on spot, the tanking needs to be on spot and the tactics need to be on spot. Its how it is and changing this will eventually make mythics easier. Titanforging was the most horrible tumor that they could have introduced to the game. People were overgearing it too much because titanforging could give 15-20 higher itemlvl when doing heroics. You could get gear with the same lvl of mythic itself. So yeah.... Thats bad.

[potis]

And as said, certain encounters do not work.

Take G'huun for example, that encounter was already a pain on heroic with 10 people because 4 people are busy handling those orbs, that's 40% of your raid doing nothing in a 10man group.
Same goes for a Boss like Mekkatorque, having three people do nothing is a huge thing in a 10man raid, not so much in 20man.

Not to mention that certain mechanics flat out not work, doing Mythic Jaina without a Lock would be a shit show, you'd have to design an encounter that is either completely different or an absolute joke in terms of numbers.
You simply can't downscale every mechanic down to 10 people and expect it works just as well.

Heroic simply has enough leeway in terms of numbers to get away with it and doesn't feature any mechanics that require specific class abilities.

You can, you are basing 20man mechanic logic to 10man, but if they are designed for 10man from the start, they will be fine, probably similar but slightly different.

We had those exact same issues in HC runs because we were only 10, of course the moment we were 15 the bosses got stomped because 30-50% of our raid was no longer disabled by a Mechanic like Mekkatorque, but at a 10man you can simply change how the mechanic works.

They could make it that there 2 types of bots, and 2 players can decide which bots to kill etc, and many more things.

[Tradu]

You can, you are basing 20man mechanic logic to 10man, but if they are designed for 10man from the start, they will be fine, probably similar but slightly different.

We had those exact same issues in HC runs because we were only 10, of course the moment we were 15 the bosses got stomped because 30-50% of our raid was no longer disabled by a Mechanic like Mekkatorque, but at a 10man you can simply change how the mechanic works.

They could make it that there 2 types of bots, and 2 players can decide which bots to kill etc, and many more things.

And you are inherently more limited in what you can do because of it.