How Long Until Pay To Win Happens?

[sam86]

Yea, heared of boosts? TCG? Gold Farms?

WoW gold could always be measured in real life money, that was the whole idea behind gold farms.

The only difference now is that the tokens helped getting rid of those farms and scammers.

yes and it was illegal, and we had hint bar says so for over 5 years, if anything blizz is the reason to convince me even more that this should be illegal, since that was their view pre-acti era
and no, wow gold didn't have a legal way to be measured irl
so blizz problem with chineese gold farmers is they didn't get any profit from them?

[FelPlague]

Most games either go P2P, F2P with MTX's, or Subscription based. Wow does all 3, heavily abusing MTX's aswell as launching frequent expansions. I used to think that if they went that route back with That Retarded Horse it would be the end, but look at us now, there is no end to what us idiots are willing to put up with.

1. no MMO goes JUST off subs in this economy, back in 2004 sure. but these days you CANNOT just do subs
2. "Wow does all 3" So does final fantasy 14. so does ESO, so does guild wars, so does swtor, so did wildstar, so does like every major MMO, they are P2P with a sub, and have microtransactions.

[sam86]

What are you talking about? The FFXIV shop is pretty big, huge compared to WoW's. I just checked and it has 474 different things you can buy.

i meant there is no more serious competition in mmo genre, that the only actual real mmo that exist is FF14 and they are still miles after wow, so u can't compare wow with anything anymore
in older times there was constant rise of competition, heck wow became acronym to waiting on warhammer, but all those competition failed, and as result with no competition wow can lower its standards and u can't 'complain' because no one else exist
This is like wrestling, in late 90s wwf and wcw were competing brutally against each others until wcw died, now wwe is a joke and most ppl who used to like it don't even watch anymore (not to mention they flat out admit they now target audience of kids in first place), there is TNA, but wrestling industry is a shadow of its former self and no one is even good in compare to its better times

[FelPlague]

yes and it was illegal, and we had hint bar says so for over 5 years, if anything blizz is the reason to convince me even more that this should be illegal, since that was their view pre-acti era
and no, wow gold didn't have a legal way to be measured irl
so blizz problem with chineese gold farmers is they didn't get any profit from them?

TCG was not illegal.
Nor was boosts as long as you were friends IRL.
Blizzard literally cannot enforce stuff if its IRL
I know cause back in wotlk i bought gold from a friend who was quitting.
I gave him my pokemon cards IRL and he gave me his wow gold.
blizz did nothing, i even addmited to a Gm cause i was a kid and felt guilty
dude said "well thats not really a gold trade as we enforce cause that is trading real life money through the game for gold. While that was "I will give you my pokemon cards friend" "Cool well im quitting wow, so i will give you my wow gold as thanks!"

no ban, dude said just try not to do something like that again.

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i meant there is no more serious competition in mmo genre, that the only actual real mmo that exist is FF14 and they are still miles after wow, so u can't compare wow with anything anymore
in older times there was constant rise of competition, heck wow became acronym to waiting on warhammer, but all those competition failed, and as result with no competition wow can lower its standards and u can't 'complain' because no one else exist
This is like wrestling, in late 90s wwf and wcw were competing brutally against each others until wcw died, now wwe is a joke and most ppl who used to like it don't even watch anymore (not to mention they flat out admit they now target audience of kids in first place), there is TNA, but wrestling industry is a shadow of its former self and no one is even good in compare to its better times

None of that explains why you said

the only other game that has that rule now (lol...) is FF14 and they don't have much in shop either

What are you talking about? The FFXIV shop is pretty big, huge compared to WoW's. I just checked and it has 474 different things you can buy.

So if FF14 is so much smaller that you cant even compare them, isnt it super sad that a game so small has over 20x more store items then wow does, which is way bigger and way older?

[Beastiel]

What are you talking about? The FFXIV shop is pretty big, huge compared to WoW's. I just checked and it has 474 different things you can buy.

That's a rather inflated number, 90% of that is different colored variants of seasonal event rewards that cost 3 dollars. Which, i'll also add, really should earn ff14 points rather than detract from it. If i'm away from WoW and hear about an event reward, i have to pay 15 dollars to resub to the game in order to get it. In the case of FF14, however, if i hear the same then I know i'm not forced to resub and can pay less than the cost of a monthly resub to get said item when I return. These differences really illustrate blizzard's business strategy of abusing the customer's fear of missing out, while ff14 is a game that goes out of it's way for your convenience.

I'll also add that what few items aren't seasonal event rewards are items that wouldn't fit thematically into a related reward theme, such as costumes of characters from previous Final Fantasy games. This differs from WoW, where almost all of the paid mounts and pets would've fit perfectly into some faction rep reward at the time.

[tru]

Idk, it's always been "right around the corner guys srsly!!" for over a decade now. I'd say give it another decade.

Right.... Well ever since Activisions heavier influence on the game it does seem closer and closer. You didn't have these feels in early xpacs. But it's all good our lord and savior Bobby koktit will save the gaming world.

[josykay]

I am remembering guilds seeling BWL runs.. so... since 2005 already? :P

[HumbleDuck]

yes and it was illegal, and we had hint bar says so for over 5 years, if anything blizz is the reason to convince me even more that this should be illegal, since that was their view pre-acti era
and no, wow gold didn't have a legal way to be measured irl
so blizz problem with chineese gold farmers is they didn't get any profit from them?

It was illegal, but extremely common amongst players. Blizzard tried several times, but people will get their hands on what they want no matter how illegal you make them. Just like drugs.

This move was made to provide a safe environment for players who would otherwise get scammed. It is still trading between players, this time though, in a safe environment.

Honestly an Extremely clever and effective way of solving the scammer issue.

Also TCG ...

[Kaykay]

A bunch of bullshit is what you are saying.

Every blind guy can get decent gear as starting point. Bis is not a "starting" point.

Those that gear through boosts arent any threat in pvp because they suck. They cant even be competitive in pve...much less in pvp.
They cant get a mid range mythic+ much less at max dificulty.

A bunch of crap you guys saying.

Maxing their profs... Lol like what... Im super rich and im pretty casual. Got like 6 120lvl characters. 4 of them are herbalists, got one with mx fishing and cooking. And even got a 112 char with like 150 or so at inscription.

Guys buying boosts cant reach any endgame. Or they would not be buying boosts anyway.

A bunch of unexistant theorys and crap load of useless bullshit.

A good player that buys gold and boosts will have an advantage over a good player that doesn't.

That's the problem, not the fact that the majority of the people who do have money, are people who dont play the game for a ton of hours. And therefore aren't as skilled, play as many hours.

Doesn't stop it being paytowin.

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So tell me exactly, how do you buy Benthic gear through tokens? How do you buy Heart of Azeroth levels through tokens? How do you buy essences through tokens? How will you level your legendary cape through tokens? How do you even get boosted until top guild on your server has the current raid comfortably on farm?

What's this? You cannot? But you just claimed that tokens have made the game P2W. What kind of shitty "victory" is this, if your character is laughably underpowered and you still need to grind to bring it up to par?

And all of that stuff could be bought through gold earned through garrisons/Legion mission tables, which earned people millions by doing almost nothing. It could be bought back in Vanilla, through whatever mean. "But token!" changes nothing.
Not only that, but these people "forget" to mention that certain aspects of character power still have to be grinded or they'll be far weaker than their counterparts. And there's no real way to pay money in order to speed that up. Not much of a "win".

Who needs benthic gear? majority of your pieces come from mythic or mythic+ titanforging.

And it being a "shitty victory" is exactly why paytowin sucks ass in games, also in wow.

Buying gold in previous expansions got you banned, just because people steal, doesn't mean the law shouldn't exist. We have to do what we can to keep the game a fair place. And being able to skip hundreds of hours of grinding gold by paying, is not fair to those who cant.

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I will not consider the WoW tokens pay to win with that in mind. The ones who are making the game pay to win, are the people selling services for gold.

For gold to not be pay to win, it would need to have zero value, otherwise it will still constitute as an advantage, available from paying money.

[Rendark]

No. Gold Tokens buy you TIME, not game advantages. Blizzard does not sell the BFG9000 or the Iron Man Suit or anything that gives you gameplay advantages over others. It’s not like Clash Royale where you can spend thousands of dollars to get higher cards WAY faster and then face roll everyone to 5000 cups.

If someone is willing to spend 25 dollars a week to buy a boost that does NOT even guarantee useful loot, just let them do it.

Hypothetically I could even complain because the game rewards too much who has 5 hours a day to spend on it and this is not fair either, having more spare time than me is just coincidence and does not require any type of skill.

Since gold can be used to buy power and blizzard is selling you gold then the token is p2w.

[spalernTJ]

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For gold to not be pay to win, it would need to have zero value, otherwise it will still constitute as an advantage, available from paying money.[/QUOTE]

Then WoW has been pay to win since the game was released back in 2004, because you've been able to purchase gold ever since Vanilla.

[Kaykay]

Then WoW has been pay to win since the game was released back in 2004, because you've been able to purchase gold ever since Vanilla.

not without risking your account being banned. There is a significant difference between having gold selling being against tos, and selling it from the game store.

[niztheundead87]

Since gold can be used to buy power and blizzard is selling you gold then the token is p2w.

this kind of logic is the problem here.

you dont gain an advantage over anyone.

[Mendzia]

Not everyone who has gold instantly spends it on something they may or may not want. Someone with only 5.5 million gold probably isn’t in as much of a rush to drop it on a mount. So, being on the fence as it were, gives these people the push they need to decide to buy it or not. To say “have gold=buy,” and “don’t have gold=don’t buy,” is the basest argument with no thought behind it.

What is the point of farming gold then?

Because when people are presented with something going away, they are more apt to choose to buy that thing. Therefore, with a limited time, it’s more likely to bring about gold spending and therefore bringing the economy down to a equal level between players. I never said stabilize, I said bring it down

That is exactly the problem.
Players feel pressure that if they will not do it now they will be screwed up since they missed their chance to buy it.
People that are not able to afford 5mil gold with a few months will use their irl money.

No confirmation, but the response was possible examples of why this change other than “to buy tokens,” people mindlessly state like drones.The different examples aren’t dependent on each other. The response, again, was a direct issue to someone wanting examples other than to sell tokens. I never once said these examples all exist together, but are just different possibilities of why it is being take away. To need to explain that to you is just....eh, moving on.

???
I have totally no idea what are you talking about or reffering to.
Why are you now saying something about tokens?

The point wasn’t to convince you, but for the third time since you haven’t gotten it by this point in your post, was just to show other examples of why something is happening other than “big bad greedy Blizzard wants to sell tokens and every decision is based on that. Waaaaah!”

Well... That sounds exaclty as convincing.

The 30 second example was to show that if anyone actually took time to think about it instead of jumping on what other people said, they might come up with their own ideas.

Who exactly is 'other people' here?
It is my own conclusion about recent Blizzard scammy 'promotions' and very weird ideas in game.

If I can come up with 3 in such a short time then surely if you put in any thought you’d come up with others.

Still waiting for longer than 30 sec thougths...

[Rendark]

this kind of logic is the problem here.

you dont gain an advantage over anyone.

Sure you do, the advantage is getting more gold to buy power.

[rohoz]

ITT: I don't know what p2w is but i don't like blizzard so I'm going to be loud and wrong, and you can't stop me!

Until blizzard puts something that gives your character power that is unattainable anywhere else, it isn't pay to win. Everything in wow can be bought from trading in-game. Spending your rl money just speeds things up, but doesn't grant you any additional character power.

[niztheundead87]

Sure you do, the advantage is getting more gold to buy power.

you buy a few items but you can never buy the skill to use the gear properly so you never gain an advantage throught it so no

[spalernTJ]

not without risking your account being banned. There is a significant difference between having gold selling being against tos, and selling it from the game store.

Yes, but then it comes down to which is worse. I agree that it is fundamentally pay to win, to be able to buy a token, to get gold in a way to gain an advantage. However, as the Token was primarily introduced as a means to make gold purchase less lucrative for shady ass sites, scammers and hackers, I do not want to just put a pay to win label on it and use that as a reason for "P2W" in WoW, since it wasn't introduced just for the heck of being introduced.

It's just my opinion. I understand it's pay to win, but do not want to label it as such for the doomsayers because of the circumstances surrounding it.

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you buy a few items but you can never buy the skill to use the gear properly so you never gain an advantage throught it so no

Flawed logic. What if you have the skill to use it, but don't want to farm it?

[Rendark]

you buy a few items but you can never buy the skill to use the gear properly so you never gain an advantage throught it so no

Your skill doesn't mean anything. P2w means buying power with real money. No matter how small that power is.

[iinverse]

KJ has only 2% of total playerbase killing him

For that reasons it called "endgame". Yep, only 2% made it and there are 0 (zero) "token donaters" here. So no win for them.

And if we will look at KJ hc numbers - 40% of gamers did it. I suppose that there is a little number of donaters here, but hey, its 40%! Pretty much everyone with a brain and a little skill can do it! Ofc if you have no skill and want this kill badly, you will buy tokens, convert it to gold, wait till all carry guilds finish their farm, finish their carry runs for real money (and you know, that at the beginning fot the tier you have zero chances to take a hc spot for mere gold), so it will be... like 6-7 weeks after patch start? In 6-7 weekas anyone with a mdeiocre skill will get their curve.
So you will get your kill for money, but pretty late, after all normal players will get it usual way.
Thats definitely not p2w, its like a catch up for gold after all active players already get it.

the only other game that has that rule now (lol...) is FF14 and they don't have much in shop either

I suppose, you didnt even see FF14 shop lul.