Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[rohoz]

Because if people can't do it, they quit rather then farm Heroic for nothing for 5 months. And of those that quit, a bunch don't come back for next patch, they are gone forever.

So you want keep a steady supply of challenges infront of people, something they have a change of overcoming in an 'ok' timeframe, because a solid wall turns them off just as hard.

And to reiterate, most are not asking for CE to be handed out to everyone on a silver platter. Many Mythic guilds never clear the instance in time to get it and that is fine, but you want to keep them engaged with the content by allowing them to slowly keep progressing, even if its at a pace to slow to make it to CE in time.

The worst thing you can do as a developer is tell people that want to play your game that you don't care that they ran out of things to do.

But.... they haven't run out of things to do.
And yes, they are. They aren't cutting edge if they.... can't do it in the stipulated window. Nothing stops them from going back and doing it in a subsequent tier if they really want the achievements.

[Zyky]

The biggest crime here is acting like 2% isnt a lot. Also, are you talking stat allocation?

Another thing ppl should realize, no its not your gear or neck level thats in the way of CE. We killed the boss in september with half the raid not even at 65, and the only Azshara nerfs implemented came while Method progd it. Now most ppl have 70 neck, maxed out gear (probably bis m+ azerite pieces etc). Azshara has been nerfed to shit, you legit cant mess up the ward soaking now. Yet people point at rng and neck levels as some kind of excuse. Sorry to bring the bad news.

2% isn't a lot. As I stated in my first post, the same piece 430 to 445 isn't a huge deal. When you take stat allocation into account a lot of the time a optimized 430 will flat out beat a poor 445.

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It's less per piece than 2%, but when you total all the upgrades and possibilities - you easily get 10% more throughput and survivability combined and this is now with 4 items locked by benthic.

That is a shitton AND on top of that we're overall significantly more powerful now with capped necks and optimal gear. I did not have 455 socketed Font on my first Azshara kill.

What you fail to realize is a 455 socket font isn't that large of an upgrade from a 430 socket font. Proof using your toon it's only a ~2% increase: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...qPqkxupcMwxWpR

The reality is, raid gear is often poorly stat optimized for a lot of classes, for example there isn't a single cloth piece in Ny'alotha that has Haste/Vers for Fire Mage BiS, in a lot of cases a M +15 piece with Haste/Vers will surpass a Mythic piece from Ny'alotha.

[rohoz]

2% isn't a lot. As I stated in my first post, the same piece 430 to 445 isn't a huge deal. When you take stat allocation into account a lot of the time a optimized 430 will flat out beat a poor 445.

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What you fail to realize is a 455 socket font isn't that large of an upgrade from a 430 socket font. Proof using your toon it's only a ~2% increase: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...qPqkxupcMwxWpR

The reality is, raid gear is often poorly stat optimized for a lot of classes, for example there isn't a single cloth piece in Ny'alotha that has Haste/Vers for Fire Mage BiS, in a lot of cases a M +15 piece with Haste/Vers will surpass a Mythic piece from Ny'alotha.

Raid gear has pretty much always been good for some but awful for most. M+ being an avenue to further optimize is great, but people are (and for stupid reasons, always will) be fixated on "BiS" when you don't need anything near that to function for progression.

Like, my 410 crit/versa socket ring from bod is > my 455 court ring from the raid. Sockets and TF and whatever are fine, but you 1000000% don't need them to win. Probably to parse, but def not to get kills. Same with benthic.

[Gorsameth]

But.... they haven't run out of things to do.
And yes, they are. They aren't cutting edge if they.... can't do it in the stipulated window. Nothing stops them from going back and doing it in a subsequent tier if they really want the achievements.

The person I was responding to was saying that people who can't clear Mythic shouldn't even try it. But there is a big group that quickly clears Heroic and then gets stuck in Mythic behind a wall and... that's it. They get stuck, guild dies. Whole bunch quit never to come back.

If they don't try then they have run out of things to do within the first month of a patch and they quit, again many of them won't come back.

[rohoz]

The person I was responding to was saying that people who can't clear Mythic shouldn't even try it. But there is a big group that quickly clears Heroic and then gets stuck in Mythic behind a wall and... that's it. They get stuck, guild dies. Whole bunch quit never to come back.

If they don't try then they have run out of things to do within the first month of a patch and they quit, again many of them won't come back.

That's on them. You can't design away a competitive environment off the bat because some people can't compete. Mythic gets nerfed a lot already. You can play heroics/push keys/pvp if you aren't cut out for wiping (keep in mind that wipes to first kills go down as the patch progresses)

I dunno. I've never been in a feeder guild that can't get CE so maybe I'm out of touch, I'll 100% admit that, but do people even compare # of wipes for kills with other guilds? ERT and I think DBM/BigWigs track wipes. Easy way to know if you're on track.

[apustus]

2% isn't a lot. As I stated in my first post, the same piece 430 to 445 isn't a huge deal. When you take stat allocation into account a lot of the time a optimized 430 will flat out beat a poor 445.

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What you fail to realize is a 455 socket font isn't that large of an upgrade from a 430 socket font. Proof using your toon it's only a ~2% increase: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...qPqkxupcMwxWpR

The reality is, raid gear is often poorly stat optimized for a lot of classes, for example there isn't a single cloth piece in Ny'alotha that has Haste/Vers for Fire Mage BiS, in a lot of cases a M +15 piece with Haste/Vers will surpass a Mythic piece from Ny'alotha.

TIL 1300DPS from a single item slot isn't a lot.

[rohoz]

TIL 1300DPS from a single item slot isn't a lot.

The point being made is that base itemlevel gear isn't what's holding you back, it's itemization. Good traits usually mean more than any other piece of gear.

Rather, having a 430 font instead of a 455 won't be the reason your guild wipes.

[xblubbx]

According to https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271 6% of players worldwide have CE jaina, 5.1% have CE ghuun, and 3.7% have CE azshara. 29.5% have aotc jaina, 31% have aotc ghuun, 38.8% have aotc azshara.

No personal offense, but if this thread bases on assumptions like 6% of players have CE Jaina then this thread needs to get closed immediately. (it's just so wrong)

Apart from that.. I have no idea if mythic BfA is overtuned as I've stopped mythic raiding after Legion, but what I've seen is lower end CE guilds that are WAY over casual struggling heavily and disbanding (I have no stats so it's a subjective impression) That a player in a functional and stable CE guild states stuff like "Oh yeah CE is not meant to be everyone" in this discussion is understandable because for them it's like the less people have CE the better for them. Long term this isn't gonna help them though if more and more people left.
I think raiding is THE WoW core feature that also ensures the existance of many guilds. If more and more guilds quit mythic raiding then this issue needs to be addressed in the interest of everyone to have the reason found out and corrected. That said BfA is just a terrible expansion IMO and it wouldn't be easy to determine all of those reasons.

[Marrilaife]

That a player in a functional and stable CE guild states stuff like "Oh yeah CE is not meant to be everyone" in this discussion is understandable because for them it's like the less people have CE the better for them.

It's very selfish though, raiding on a high level is a niche activity that requires big pool of people participating to function in an old game that is steadily dropping subs. It's basically an attitude of "let the world burn as long as the fire isn't under my ass", but some day that fire might come too close. They just don't see it.

For many expansions raiding worked in a way that the higher guilds relied on lower guilds "prepping" new blood. Most raiders who are in CE guilds went through guilds who got stuck on wall bosses, realized they can do better and moved up, meanwhile those who couldn't move up stayed where they were. However if they stop enjoying themselves and quit, and their guilds disband, that closes the pipeline of potential recruits. I haven't seen a CE guild that would recruit players with no prior mythic experience, and if they ever gave a chance to a player like that, it was an exception not a rule.

You can't cut the middle part of the pyramid and expect the top to not crumble.

[Celestraza]

I quit mythic raids right before Mythic Jaina.

Imho the difficulty is not the issue, difficulty was fine from Legion til now (CE player here). There are many issues (like class stacking, combat rez) but the main reason is that players are forced to do grindy unfun content for hours on straight to be competitive. I saw some dude say here he plays 6 hours a week with CE. I call bullshit and would love a screenshot of his /played. Probably bought the achievement like most trash do.

It started in Legion with the Legendary and AP grind. Raiding 3-4 times (most mythic guilds) a week for 4 hours mean you play at least 12-16 hours a week. Now factor in that most have to spend MORE time in M+ than in raids to grind legendaries, BiS/TF gear and AP. In addition to dealing with consumeables, reading up on your class/rotation/boss fights/addons. You are looking at having to play a good 24-32 hours a week if you want to do Mythic raids and be competitive.

Has this changed in BfA? To my knowledge it only got a whole lot worse. No tier sets mean M+ gear is nearly competitive with raid gear. Benthic gear looks like it is a crazy mandatory grind but not sure on this since I quit. As do essences and AP. In addition you are pretty much forced to do islands and warfronts. To be competitive most need to play at least 30 hours a week.

There are exceptions ofcourse. Especially if you got a M+ spam group ready at your beck and call and are in a 2 raid night guild with solid progress (super rare). On the other hand you have tryhard guilds that raid 5 times a week with minimal progress. But most mythic guilds raid 3-4 times a week so that is what I consider regular.

Amount of wipes on a boss matter. I know guilds that go in unprepared for a boss fight. Wipe 50 times. When a proper mythic guild goes in prepared and does it in 5. The first has no business crying about not getting CE.

[asil]

I quit mythic raids right before Mythic Jaina.

Imho the difficulty is not the issue, difficulty was fine from Legion til now (CE player here). There are many issues (like class stacking, combat rez) but the main reason is that players are forced to do grindy unfun content for hours on straight to be competitive. I saw some dude say here he plays 6 hours a week with CE. I call bullshit and would love a screenshot of his /played. Probably bought the achievement like most trash do.

It started in Legion with the Legendary and AP grind. Raiding 3-4 times (most mythic guilds) a week for 4 hours mean you play at least 12-16 hours a week. Now factor in that most have to spend MORE time in M+ than in raids to grind legendaries, BiS/TF gear and AP. In addition to dealing with consumeables, reading up on your class/rotation/boss fights/addons. You are looking at having to play a good 24-32 hours a week if you want to do Mythic raids and be competitive.

Has this changed in BfA? To my knowledge it only got a whole lot worse. No tier sets mean M+ gear is nearly competitive with raid gear. Benthic gear looks like it is a crazy mandatory grind but not sure on this since I quit. As do essences and AP. In addition you are pretty much forced to do islands and warfronts. To be competitive most need to play at least 30 hours a week.

There are exceptions ofcourse. Especially if you got a M+ spam group ready at your beck and call and are in a 2 raid night guild with solid progress (super rare). On the other hand you have tryhard guilds that raid 5 times a week with minimal progress. But most mythic guilds raid 3-4 times a week so that is what I consider regular.

Amount of wipes on a boss matter. I know guilds that go in unprepared for a boss fight. Wipe 50 times. When a proper mythic guild goes in prepared and does it in 5. The first has no business crying about not getting CE.

The fact you think you need to play 30 hours a week to get CE is wild lol. Like, to be clear here, you get benthic from doing like 20mins of daily quests/day You do 3 islands to cap out for the week. I've never even done a warfront this tier either.

I've been raid logging for months.

- My neck is 70. (I got from doing less than an hour of quests a day/islands a week/raid ap.)

- I do 1 m+ a week.

- I have full BIS azerite for 3 specs.

At no point this tier have I even come close to 30 hours a week. Sure - the "grind" should be reduced, but it's not as bad as people here seem to think.

Only bleeding edge guilds do the real grinding.

[Gaidax]

2% isn't a lot...

What you fail to realize is a 455 socket font isn't that large of an upgrade from a 430 socket font. Proof using your toon it's only a ~2% increase: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...qPqkxupcMwxWpR

The reality is, raid gear is often poorly stat optimized for a lot of classes, for example there isn't a single cloth piece in Ny'alotha that has Haste/Vers for Fire Mage BiS, in a lot of cases a M +15 piece with Haste/Vers will surpass a Mythic piece from Ny'alotha.

2% of the damage I did last Azshara kill amounts to 600k damage. You think it's not much? And that is only one slot of many slots on a single character.

Even if we take all DPS and have them upgrade just that single slot for M.Azshara... Let's see our latest parse had 400 million damage done by DPS player only on Azshara... 2% is 8 million damage.

You think it's a small amount? And that's only one item out of 14 slots. Granted not all slots can be upgraded and so on, but you have at least 6 slots which are giving heavy boosts for mythic players. We're talking easy 10% gap and that's being modest, that's 40 million damage for that Azshara kill.

Not much?

That's why raids are automatically nerfed overtime anyway, because gear makes a BIG ass difference. That's why we no longer do AFK P1 tactics and realm dance last phase on Zaqul, because we have just enough gear to dps him down now and ignore a lot of tactics this way.

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I quit mythic raids right before Mythic Jaina.

Imho the difficulty is not the issue, difficulty was fine from Legion til now (CE player here). There are many issues (like class stacking, combat rez) but the main reason is that players are forced to do grindy unfun content for hours on straight to be competitive. I saw some dude say here he plays 6 hours a week with CE. I call bullshit and would love a screenshot of his /played. Probably bought the achievement like most trash do.

It started in Legion with the Legendary and AP grind. Raiding 3-4 times (most mythic guilds) a week for 4 hours mean you play at least 12-16 hours a week. Now factor in that most have to spend MORE time in M+ than in raids to grind legendaries, BiS/TF gear and AP. In addition to dealing with consumeables, reading up on your class/rotation/boss fights/addons. You are looking at having to play a good 24-32 hours a week if you want to do Mythic raids and be competitive.

Has this changed in BfA? To my knowledge it only got a whole lot worse. No tier sets mean M+ gear is nearly competitive with raid gear. Benthic gear looks like it is a crazy mandatory grind but not sure on this since I quit. As do essences and AP. In addition you are pretty much forced to do islands and warfronts. To be competitive most need to play at least 30 hours a week.

There are exceptions ofcourse. Especially if you got a M+ spam group ready at your beck and call and are in a 2 raid night guild with solid progress (super rare). On the other hand you have tryhard guilds that raid 5 times a week with minimal progress. But most mythic guilds raid 3-4 times a week so that is what I consider regular.

Amount of wipes on a boss matter. I know guilds that go in unprepared for a boss fight. Wipe 50 times. When a proper mythic guild goes in prepared and does it in 5. The first has no business crying about not getting CE.

I raid 6 hours a week and almost don't play otherwise and am doing it for many years now.

You have my guild and armory in sig.

If you have no clue it does not mean that 2 night raiding is some impossibility in BfA.

My whole "grind" outside that was on patch launch where I played like 2 hours a day for like 3 weeks and that's it, raid was not even out at that point. After that it was pointless since you already had everything.

[alturic]

Let me see if I understand the "problem".

'The hardest difficulty level is too difficult, please lower the difficulty!!11!'

Seems to be no problem? Not every player, or every guild is capable of doing the hardest difficulty.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Mythic raiding is a dying part of the game. The whole concept is crazy. Then spent 3 expansions making raiding non-exclusive. Then they made an ultra exclusive mode. Like making an airplane with the engines on the front and the back and wondering why you are losing fuel and not going anywhere. WoW in a nutshell.

[docterfreeze]

Those numbers are only counting lvl 120 characters on US or EU servers that also have a pvp rating of 1800 or higher or who have killed at least one boss on mythic. The numbers are even less reliable than you think.

They filter by rating for the PvP section of the site and 1 mythic kill for the PvE section, but for the global section(where I got achievement stats) they only filter by level.

[Krille]

No personal offense, but if this thread bases on assumptions like 6% of players have CE Jaina then this thread needs to get closed immediately. (it's just so wrong)

Apart from that.. I have no idea if mythic BfA is overtuned as I've stopped mythic raiding after Legion, but what I've seen is lower end CE guilds that are WAY over casual struggling heavily and disbanding (I have no stats so it's a subjective impression) That a player in a functional and stable CE guild states stuff like "Oh yeah CE is not meant to be everyone" in this discussion is understandable because for them it's like the less people have CE the better for them. Long term this isn't gonna help them though if more and more people left.
I think raiding is THE WoW core feature that also ensures the existance of many guilds. If more and more guilds quit mythic raiding then this issue needs to be addressed in the interest of everyone to have the reason found out and corrected. That said BfA is just a terrible expansion IMO and it wouldn't be easy to determine all of those reasons.

No reasonable CE raider gives a shit if more ppl get CE. If you get it regularly you only care about world rankings. It only becomes an issue when noobs (sorry its true) suggest they should launch easier bosses from the get go. Its been a record amount of months for a mid expansion mythic tier during EP. If you dont get CE this time you need to consider changing guild (if you care about CE) or try harder, recruit smarter, draft strats earlier etc. Lots of things you can do to leave the trench as a guild, but it requires more than just showing up and playing like shit.

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Mythic raiding is a dying part of the game. The whole concept is crazy. Then spent 3 expansions making raiding non-exclusive. Then they made an ultra exclusive mode. Like making an airplane with the engines on the front and the back and wondering why you are losing fuel and not going anywhere. WoW in a nutshell.

The top tier raiding scene was even more exclusive back in the day.

[Alvito]

No, its the same issue that has existed as far back as I can remember: no matter how many difficulties are in the game, the majority wants the highest end difficulty to be achievable by the average player. I think that idea sucks. I like that there is a tier that only a small percentage of players are able to obtain.

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Even with all of these, people still complain.
Edit2:
Do players really want the highest difficulty dumbed down so that more people can achieve it? Reading this thread it seems to be the case.



Edit:
And what the fuck is up with this website today. Lag, Posts not being posted. WTF. Let us know you are doing maintenance if you are doing maintenance.

Most seem to want it just easy enough for them to do it and than the door slammed on anybody else.

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Why not? I usually hover us 200 because i dont want to be us 30 and raid 5 days a week anymore, so i have history. But i joined a start up for bfa that died on ghuun, switched guilds and got it and have been with them since and were 9/9, 8/8. Made my playing experience much better

People jumping ship and trying to rapidly trade up in guilds/raids is part of the problem too. At each level there are guilds floundering and ending up being feeder guilds for others. It often ends up to groups of people quitting. Before there were enough reasons or benefits for people to stick with guilds, personal loot and other issues have taken away the value of sticking around for most. As a result raids die.

[Krille]

Most seem to want it just easy enough for them to do it and than the door slammed on anybody else.

Its difficult to make it any harder without touching on mathematically impossible territory. But thats why its fun!

[Tr0up141]

The thought is that you might not be facing issues now but over time more guilds die, more people quit, recruitment pool lowers, and perhaps the requirement to raid (skill-wise) become so steep that recruiting just anybody won't work. I'd rather the fidelity of raiding not be compromised for the purpose of accessibility but I also raid Alliance US so I absolutely see myself accepting that.

I believe another issue is just the general required time that has to be spent playing the game outside of raiding. Be it having the correct azerite gear (some which may come from arenas), the correct essences (can come from activities such as farming AV to clearing Mechagon), grinding AP in general, M+ for specific trinkets, etc. Outside of raiding for gear (the only source of it), during WoD and MoP all I had to do was keep up with my legendary quest.
Some might say "yeah I only play for 3 hours a day and that's enough" but that's easy to say at the end of a tier-- I'd be surprised if that's actually true during the first month of a new patch, both during Legion and BFA now, and those same people will probably be decked out in +15 gear the first week the new affix is up for 8.3.

There are also arbitrary check marks that need to be considered. Your DH decides to quit? You're fucked unless someone has a raid-ready alt on hand. No warrior? Your physical DPS is 3% weaker but I suppose it could be worse without scrolls. You can do M-Azshara with a RDruid, HPriest, and MWMonk (now that I checked warcraftlogs apparently not but someone can double-check) but expect 150 extra pulls on your counter. Mandatory buffs and poor role balance means the activity becomes more exclusive, and not in the "I'm a good player and can do the content" exclusive but in the "I wasted my time gearing/farming/grinding this Enhancement Shaman when I could have spent that time on a DH/Rogue" exclusive.

[Zaanm4n]

Mythic was always meant to be the Hardest Content, perhaps you just aren't up to it anymore?

I agree with you, it is meant to be the hardest content. But with so many stipulations now it just seems like its being made harder to actually do the content than the content itself. The 20 player requirement is a task in itself, to add multiple grinds, be it AP or Essences feels rather tedious, majority of the people who want to even try pushing get turned off by the requirement to get there. Well at least I know I do, however to each its own.