How did pvp gearing get this bad?

[Depakote]

It all started by hiring game developers who have 0 clue about game development.

[Merin]

Legions system was good for competition but needed tweaks as it allowed little room for customization. Instead they removed it and couldn’t even be bothered to put the vendors back, making for the worst system since classic.

WoW is in such an insanely bad state these days. It’s unreal just how miserable this development team is. You would swear to god that most of them not only lack online RPG experience but have possibly never played an actual video game before either. Are they hiring people who worked on AAA console games or something? 8-12 hour long games with no gameplay and the narrative depth of a failed summer movie?

[Ticj]

I don't think that's the problem.
The problem is two folded:
1.PvP gearing is just flat out broken, you rely on completely End of game RNG rewards, Conquest giving you shit items in terms of Ilvl and the only passable reward is the Weekly chest, which even requires you to have 2,1k Rating to even get a 440 Azerite piece.

2.M+ is overrewarding, a M+10 is pretty easy if you are a halfway decent player, takes about 30min and has a good chance of giving you a 430 item, depending on your comp, you might even get some items from other people.

It's a similiar issue as in Legion, PvP and PvE gear is virtually the same but PvE gear is far easier to acquire, which in turn kinda invalidates a part of the reason to play PvP because you already have all your gear.



That's just not true.
Unless you count Titanforging as an amazing incentive to keep playing (which it isn't), then you are probably not receiving a lot of upgrades anymore after ~2 months into a patch, depending on your skill level.
Because the game showers you in gear, you just spam M+ and sit on your heroic Ilvl, if you have no intention of entering Mythic raid, that's good enough.

Gear as a progression system is broken, that's why Blizzard has introduced systems such as AP so players still have some sort of power progression.

You pretty much outlined why I am not playing retail at the moment. The game showers you in heroic level gear, and if you have no interest in mythic raiding then you can just pretty much fuck off until the next content patch.

[WraithKingOstarion]

Way to not respond to the point being raised AT ALL.

i was responding to you, not the point of the topic. don't try too hard to understand next time.

[Thelxi]

Blizzard recently and very out of character confirmed that PvE reward systems have forced PvP reward systems into a corner. It's probably the most unfortunate collateral damage of the increase in greed and RNG we've seen escalating in Legion and BfA. Putting back in honor/conquest vendors simply doesn't work without overhauling everything.

[Dopplegager]

Imo the best gearing for PvP was in Cata.
I know I know, some ppl used full PvE tier sets cuz that shit was OP. Still they'd get wrecked when someone got to them because that's how Resilience worked.
What made it so good was that you could mix and match pieces based on your class and how much offensive/defensive need it had.

That being said, what I really miss is grinding BG's, Arenas and doing some RBG's from time to time to get emblem cap. Even if you were Honor capped, you could still do BG's and get something out of it, since there were Reagents you could buy with Honor or Trade Honor for Justice to get PvE items and the same would go for Conquest/Valor.

I totally agree. It was a great system. Plus with vendors and when you raid you could fill the holes in your gear while you work towards BiS when that was a thing. I personally liked Cata gearing overall better than any expansion.

[Shadowsgrace]

For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

Did you not PvP in Cata? I know that BiS casters then, were Fully Heroic Geared Dragonsoul + Dragonwrath, Taergosa's Rest, and Rogues were Heroic Dragonsoul + Fang of the Father. In Lich King, Str Melee was Heroic ICC geared + Shadowmourne. The only time I recall PvP gear being better was during WoD I think, when PvP gained extra stats inside Instanced PvP.

[Zeusy]

Did you not PvP in Cata? I know that BiS casters then, were Fully Heroic Geared Dragonsoul + Dragonwrath, Taergosa's Rest, and Rogues were Heroic Dragonsoul + Fang of the Father. In Lich King, Str Melee was Heroic ICC geared + Shadowmourne. The only time I recall PvP gear being better was during WoD I think, when PvP gained extra stats inside Instanced PvP.

yea but prior to DS it was great. DS was when it became pure trash. I was 2600 in every season in cata. In DS tier you had to pve for the trinkets/weps, but prior to that you were ok not raiding. System was good. (only comps pre DS that were stupid were like boomkin/lock who both had staff which you could dodge and be fine)

you could also just say early firelands before a lot of people had staff as well was a good time. I think when people mention cata they mean early early on before fangs/staff/vial/cunning/gurthlaks were running rampart like they were in the final season.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard recently and very out of character confirmed that PvE reward systems have forced PvP reward systems into a corner. It's probably the most unfortunate collateral damage of the increase in greed and RNG we've seen escalating in Legion and BfA. Putting back in honor/conquest vendors simply doesn't work without overhauling everything.

Nothing in PvE forced them to remove PvP-only stats. The system they had before would have continued to work fine even with current PvE gearing.

[Zeusy]

I could point you to the arena leaderboard at the 2000-2400 bracket, half of it is not even 400 ilvl, but you clearly dont play the game, so it doesnt matter.

this is such a joke. I was 2400-2600 for like 10 seasons and i just resubbed in 8.2 and i queued up some 2s with a friend for some 1800 arenas and i was 400 ilvl and everyone had like 80-100k more HP than me and I could feel the pure damage difference in everyone. I really severely doubt people in 2000-2400s have less gear than 1800s. The grind in 400 ilvl vs everyone 30-40 ilvl highers is a complete turn off and made me just unsub to wait for 8.3.

I will be playing in 8.3 when I have a equal playing field. No one enjoys that level of grind while being behind. I just wanted to log on and do arenas but the fact that everyone says lol go grind M+ so you can do arenas is really unenjoyable for me. Early Xpacs I could sub and spam arenas or bgs and get an honor set / conquest points , then cap weekly conquest until I was high enough gear where the ilvl didn't matter and could win through skill.

[Ange]

this is such a joke. I was 2400-2600 for like 10 seasons and i just resubbed in 8.2 and i queued up some 2s with a friend for some 1800 arenas and i was 400 ilvl and everyone had like 80-100k more HP than me and I could feel the pure damage difference in everyone. I really severely doubt people in 2000-2400s have less gear than 1800s. The grind in 400 ilvl vs everyone 30-40 ilvl highers is a complete turn off and made me just unsub to wait for 8.3.

I will be playing in 8.3 when I have a equal playing field. No one enjoys that level of grind while being behind. I just wanted to log on and do arenas but the fact that everyone says lol go grind M+ so you can do arenas is really unenjoyable for me. Early Xpacs I could sub and spam arenas or bgs and get an honor set / conquest points , then cap weekly conquest until I was high enough gear where the ilvl didn't matter and could win through skill.

You basicly dont understand how PVP scaling works. Did you miss the whole green-gear-socket/versa stacking shitshow from the first months of BfA? The best PVP essence is in most cases the crucible and thats the first-free essence you get with each character.

It doesnt matter if you got 200k 300k or 400k hitpoints, HUGE CRITS will be bigger on high ilvl players and smaller on low ilvl players.

The first time you see in arena a green geared DemonHunter in sub 380ilvl doing 35k singletarget-DPS is the time you realize what a shitshow pvp scaling really is.

You really cry about the wrong thing, because PVP scaling is bad, but its bad because it neutralize any gear advanatage you can have, minus a few passive healing items that are still a bit to good even with nerfs to them.

Its horrible for regular players, because your normal, heroic, mythic or max-ilvl gear means nothing and basicly your class choice is the biggest factor in your success to PVP.

[Shadowsgrace]

yea but prior to DS it was great. DS was when it became pure trash. I was 2600 in every season in cata. In DS tier you had to pve for the trinkets/weps, but prior to that you were ok not raiding. System was good. (only comps pre DS that were stupid were like boomkin/lock who both had staff which you could dodge and be fine)

you could also just say early firelands before a lot of people had staff as well was a good time. I think when people mention cata they mean early early on before fangs/staff/vial/cunning/gurthlaks were running rampart like they were in the final season.

I'll give you that, but that Staff, was BiS for casters until MoP. I love mine, and have been using it as my Flying mount ever since.

[Zeusy]

You basicly dont understand how PVP scaling works. Did you miss the whole green-gear-socket/versa stacking shitshow from the first months of BfA? The best PVP essence is in most cases the crucible and thats the first-free essence you get with each character.

It doesnt matter if you got 200k 300k or 400k hitpoints, HUGE CRITS will be bigger on high ilvl players and smaller on low ilvl players.

The first time you see in arena a green geared DemonHunter in sub 380ilvl doing 35k singletarget-DPS is the time you realize what a shitshow pvp scaling really is.

You really cry about the wrong thing, because PVP scaling is bad, but its bad because it neutralize any gear advanatage you can have, minus a few passive healing items that are still a bit to good even with nerfs to them.

Its horrible for regular players, because your normal, heroic, mythic or max-ilvl gear means nothing and basicly your class choice is the biggest factor in your success to PVP.

you are correct I have no idea what PvP scaling is. I hit max and quit in first month of bfa and resubbed to try arena in 8.2. I felt the difference in damage and health and looked at the best possible ways to get gear (M+) and said hmm this is pretty horrible. Got a couple random pieces to drop from various arena wins and saw I have like 30 ilvl lower than some of the people I faced and thought it is a horrible experience to try to grind rating to 2200-2300 while being very ungeared so I unsubbed and haven't logged in since. There is obviously still a damage difference in gear even if there is a pvp scaling correction. I could feel the pressure differences.

If there is some behind the scene system attempting to "adjust this" then it feels horrible and isn't something i would want to be subbed to deal with anyway. Point of this thread is to say the current model in PvP gear sucks and previous were better, which it totally does, and they used to be better. I am an advocate for the conquest cap being a flat 1200-1600 points or whatever it was, and being able to buy the same gear that someone with a 2800 conquest cap can buy. You can gear a few characters up a week without doing anything but a few games and then finally having a fair playing field that you can SEE up front and not let this "scaling invisible system" do for you. Elite gear was a great addition to the higher ratings of people felt better since there was no pvp stat advantage.


Specifying to just gearing alone, spamming games and hoping for a piece to drop while waiting for your chest also feels really bad in comparison to the older ways of getting gear. Flat values of points you knew you were working towards to be able to spend, and which pieces you could get when and for what reason you wanted felt way better as well.


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I'll give you that, but that Staff, was BiS for casters until MoP. I love mine, and have been using it as my Flying mount ever since.

Staff was a great addition to the game. I loved the mount and the journey to get one myself. I didn't finish mine until the end of cata but it was still cool to see regardless.

[Kralljin]

you are correct I have no idea what PvP scaling is.

There is basically a hidden modifier in PvP that adjust incoming / outgoing damage depending on your and your targets Ilvl.

If you have low Ilvl and attack someone with higher itemlevel, that attack will be scaled up and vice versa.
However, this doesn't change the numbers you see on screen.

If you crit someone for 30k, you might actually do 35k, if they have higher Ilvl, or actually 25k if you have higher Ilvl.

Exact numbers are basically nonexistant as the team never gave any specific numbers about this system, all we have is player confirmation that such a system actually exists.

[Zeusy]

There is basically a hidden modifier in PvP that adjust incoming / outgoing damage depending on your and your targets Ilvl.

If you have low Ilvl and attack someone with higher itemlevel, that attack will be scaled up and vice versa.
However, this doesn't change the numbers you see on screen.

If you crit someone for 30k, you might actually do 35k, if they have higher Ilvl, or actually 25k if you have higher Ilvl.

Exact numbers are basically nonexistant as the team never gave any specific numbers about this system, all we have is player confirmation that such a system actually exists.

Yeah I browsed forums after seeing it mentioned in the before post, and it seems to "bring things closer together but won't equal the playing field". It seems like a horrible system as any kind of adv/disadv that you can't see is really unfun to deal with. In a MMORPG you should be able to see clear cut goals or ends to a grind, and gear and damage is no difference.

If people grind gear and never feel like it really matters, then it cuts out the fun in even getting gear. Major burnout tends to happen which is what we saw with the endless AP grinds that have recently been designed. On the side of being undergeared (in my case), you don't even know how much of a disadv you actually have so its kind of a turn off as well. "Wow i see he has 100K more hp than me but how much of a disadv does that mean". In the past you would have a definite idea of peoples values and you could change kill targets and strategies based on that as well. "someone with 35k is full _____ gladiator gear, while someone 30k is missing 2-3 pieces", "someone with 27k hp could also be flexing some pve gear" etc. IDK the whole current system seems to be really horrible for people who strictly like to PvP until they have a full set of gear.

RNG in getting gear, Ilvls seem to be lower while you RNG for more gear, and then getting gear also seems to be less important but still seems valuable to get according to some anecdotal forum posts. PvP scaling and RNG drops and a weekly chest feel really meh as a system. I would highly prefer to just be how wrath/cata system was honestly... Even MoP was good too.

[Grimbold21]

As a casual, remind me again what was the problem with having each environment give its own specific type of gear?

Is this about PvErs wanting to pvp but getting destroyed for lack of gear (and vice versa)??

[Kralljin]

As a casual, remind me again what was the problem with having each environment give its own specific type of gear?

Is this about PvErs wanting to pvp but getting destroyed for lack of gear (and vice versa)??

Probably.

I mean, their intentions aren't bad, in TBC PvP gear was also pretty solid for PvE for quite a lot of specs, so you kinda had this overlap that some PvP pieces were solid for PvE but also PvE items being solid for PvP.

The issue is (as usual) their execution.

PvP Gear used to simulate the PvE Gear progresion.
Honor is basically the Badge of Justice equivalent, which you can get from more trivial content in order to buy some "starter" gear.
Arena / Conquest points were basically there to simulate the Raid lockout, similiar to how you couldn't endlessly farm a raid, you also couldn't get a shitload of Points during a single week.

However, since Blizzard thew the entire gearing system due to Titanforing and M+ offtrack in Legion, PvP gearing became completely directionless and attempts to simulate this M+ experience via random rewards from BG's / Arena, which just doesn't work because you are totally unable to target or trade loot (unlike in M+ where you have a modicum of control over the loot table).

That's also why vendors wouldn't work properly, it would be just freaking weird if you buy an item from a vendor and suddenly it titanforges (or corrupts) because reasons.
This would be so on the nose in terms of "lottery experience" that even the supporters of Titanforging / corruption would realize that the entire gearing system went a bit too far into the gambling direction.

Gear has become inflated, therefore the regular systems no longer work.
The best approach is, in my opinion, to stop the gear inflation, then we may return to a place where things like a currency + vendor make sense.
But that would mean Blizzard has to touch their new favorite mode, M+ in a "bad way", so they're not going to do that.

[Ange]

As a casual, remind me again what was the problem with having each environment give its own specific type of gear?

Is this about PvErs wanting to pvp but getting destroyed for lack of gear (and vice versa)??

PVP was allways the EASIEST WAY TO GET GEAR thats why its gated behind weekly chest and random shit.

When PVP gear was comperable to PVE gear it was very easy to get weapons/missing pieces with PVP since its the easiest gaming mode there is with little to no entry barrier. People play PVP who dont understand their own classes, would fail at most quests/dungeons/raids but since PVP is for everyone, they can still participate.

While raids had lots of weapons at later/last bosses of the tier, you could just PVP your way to a weapon much faster as with the next best raid guild. It felt more like crafting your weapon without any farming, just killing some noobs on a low rating.

A very problematic system - giving out rewards for basicly the most primitive content there is.

But its a difficult topic, since its a PVP topic! New players, ultra casuals and people that only play this minigame and cant really understand the reasonings for changes to PVP since they have no experience to compare it to anything.

How to Describe a Color to a Blind Person? This is the question in most PVP related topics.

[123youshowme]

yea but prior to DS it was great. DS was when it became pure trash. I was 2600 in every season in cata. In DS tier you had to pve for the trinkets/weps, but prior to that you were ok not raiding. System was good. (only comps pre DS that were stupid were like boomkin/lock who both had staff which you could dodge and be fine)

you could also just say early firelands before a lot of people had staff as well was a good time. I think when people mention cata they mean early early on before fangs/staff/vial/cunning/gurthlaks were running rampart like they were in the final season.

In dragonsoul you had the proc dps trinkets for rogues, and the daggers. so yea, pve gear was still v good. Gurthalak was good too

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PVP was allways the EASIEST WAY TO GET GEAR thats why its gated behind weekly chest and random shit.

When PVP gear was comperable to PVE gear it was very easy to get weapons/missing pieces with PVP since its the easiest gaming mode there is with little to no entry barrier. People play PVP who dont understand their own classes, would fail at most quests/dungeons/raids but since PVP is for everyone, they can still participate.

While raids had lots of weapons at later/last bosses of the tier, you could just PVP your way to a weapon much faster as with the next best raid guild. It felt more like crafting your weapon without any farming, just killing some noobs on a low rating.

A very problematic system - giving out rewards for basicly the most primitive content there is.

But its a difficult topic, since its a PVP topic! New players, ultra casuals and people that only play this minigame and cant really understand the reasonings for changes to PVP since they have no experience to compare it to anything.

How to Describe a Color to a Blind Person? This is the question in most PVP related topics.

people don't remember s1-s2 and why they put rating on pvp weapons several times

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Probably.

I mean, their intentions aren't bad, in TBC PvP gear was also pretty solid for PvE for quite a lot of specs, so you kinda had this overlap that some PvP pieces were solid for PvE but also PvE items being solid for PvP.

The issue is (as usual) their execution.

PvP Gear used to simulate the PvE Gear progresion.
Honor is basically the Badge of Justice equivalent, which you can get from more trivial content in order to buy some "starter" gear.
Arena / Conquest points were basically there to simulate the Raid lockout, similiar to how you couldn't endlessly farm a raid, you also couldn't get a shitload of Points during a single week.

However, since Blizzard thew the entire gearing system due to Titanforing and M+ offtrack in Legion, PvP gearing became completely directionless and attempts to simulate this M+ experience via random rewards from BG's / Arena, which just doesn't work because you are totally unable to target or trade loot (unlike in M+ where you have a modicum of control over the loot table).

That's also why vendors wouldn't work properly, it would be just freaking weird if you buy an item from a vendor and suddenly it titanforges (or corrupts) because reasons.
This would be so on the nose in terms of "lottery experience" that even the supporters of Titanforging / corruption would realize that the entire gearing system went a bit too far into the gambling direction.

Gear has become inflated, therefore the regular systems no longer work.
The best approach is, in my opinion, to stop the gear inflation, then we may return to a place where things like a currency + vendor make sense.
But that would mean Blizzard has to touch their new favorite mode, M+ in a "bad way", so they're not going to do that.

Naw, buying a full kit off a vendor was dumb and they finally admitted it was dumb and removed it. fuck around in 2's for a couple games and get a raid il weapon, good design.

[MasterOfNone]

For the first time in wow since arenas were invented, the best avenu by far for pvp gearing is pve.

The time it takes to become reasonably geared (say 420-430) to not get squashed in bgs or arenas is also the longest its been unless you m+, and even then its not really fast.

The way to get good gear in pvp is now, again for the first time in wow, rating, which is retarded in a pvp enviornment that used to encourage a level playing field.

Who at blizzard possibly thought this was a good idea? Why? It boggles the mind and i hope do a 180 in shadowlands because in the course of a single expac they managed to wreck a well built pvp reward structure that remained satisfying for years.

booo hooooo since a good portion of dps essences that are bis are pvp that WE have to grind for.