Warchief Baine

[Syegfryed]

Giving Baine a shot does not seem like a bad idea. Warmonger warchiefs do not tend to work out too well for the Horde, so maybe it's time to try a diplomat instead.

a diplomat like thrall that no matter how he tried the alliance never wanted pace? or like vol'jin? nah

[mickybrighteyes]

While the warmongering leaders win initial military successes (unsurprising, it's what they focus everything on) these tend to come at severe costs, such as sacrificing internal stability and diplomacy. The former in particular has a habit of leading to the Horde fracturing, and that happening over and over might not be what the Horde needs right now.

The events you're saying are the result of the warmongering leadership are what I'm attributing to forced railroading because the writing team wants to browbeat their story into us.

The internal stability of only one faction is ever shown to break down to this extent and most of that strife was pulled out of nowhere with no details revealed with the ever fence sitting company thrown into the camp with new comers who had no real say in events just to drive home a point that members of the writing team have repeatedly voiced that they're upset that some of the audience aren't getting...

[BB8]

Baine could be a prominent character in the council yes, but I think Lorthemar and Thalysra are gonna play big roles too.
And don't think Talanji is gonna be forgotten.

[mickybrighteyes]

Baine could be a prominent character in the council yes, but I think Lorthemar and Thalysra are gonna play big roles too.
And don't think Talanji is gonna be forgotten.

an interesting thing to note is that Talanji didn't join the horde subservient to the warchief. But this will likely get forgotten as soon as they figure out what teh official leadership of the horde is going to be.

[Maxilian]

Baine kinda has been a leader before Sylvanas' departure. His tenure as the Tauren leader isn't anything to write poems about. Unless you're Alliance, then the poems write themselves.

I do agree with you on that, but i like to think that he won't end up being the only one who start making choices, the other members of the council should still bring enough to the table to work around Baine problems

[Sunderella]

voted no, but in the other hand and going by blizzs track record, I would vote yes because in the expansion after SL he will be corrupted and become a raid boss and we will finally get rid of him.

[Soon-TM]

Baine could be a prominent character in the council yes, but I think Lorthemar and Thalysra are gonna play big roles too.
And don't think Talanji is gonna be forgotten.

If previously existing councils such as the Kirin Tor or the Dwarven ones are any hint, the Horde "council" will either vanish into meaninglessness or it will become a facade to prop up creator's pet Baine.

[Ielenia]

False

Saurfang and Cairne are stone dead. Thrall isn't Horde anymore.

Baine does not stand for the Horde or its ideology at all and its been that way since Tides of War where he broke the blood oath saying all members of the Horde had the right to retribution against their attackers by exiling the loyal tauren who defended Mulgore from Alliance invaders. This included Baine treating his own longtime supporters like Cairne's killer, Magatha.

The ideology of the Horde was never stand around and let yourself by killed by humans. If Baine stands for anything, its just Alliance domination.

The blood oath only covers other races preventing other races from seeking retribution. However, all leaders are free to lead their own people as they see fit.

[Trassk]

False

Saurfang and Cairne are stone dead. Thrall isn't Horde anymore.

Baine does not stand for the Horde or its ideology at all and its been that way since Tides of War where he broke the blood oath saying all members of the Horde had the right to retribution against their attackers by exiling the loyal tauren who defended Mulgore from Alliance invaders. This included Baine treating his own longtime supporters like Cairne's killer, Magatha.

The ideology of the Horde was never stand around and let yourself by killed by humans. If Baine stands for anything, its just Alliance domination.

Wow, reaching here much?

Saurfang and cairne are dead: correct
Thrall isn't horde anymore: false
Baine does not stand for the horde and its ideology: false
Baine stands for alliance domination: false

This level of reaching for accusing leaders like baine and thrall as 'not representing the horde' is just coming from people with a very shallow view of what the horde actually is, a pretty dated one at that.
And no, pushing out those from a faction you represent isn't done so 'because your in league the the opposing faction', its done to present more death and conflict from happening in the first place.

These whining "rationalisations" about why you hate baine so much just come from, as said, a very narrow look at what you think the horde should be, rather then looking at what it is now.

The price of peace is eternal vigilance

[Mehrunes]

Thrall isn't horde anymore: false

He betrayed the faction and teamed up with the High King of the Alliance. But yeah, totally still Horde.

Baine does not stand for the horde and its ideology: false
Baine stands for alliance domination: false

Baine doesn't stand for Alliance domination so much that during the both faction wars he lived through he aided the Alliance against the Horde with things like divulging sensitive military intel, freeing imprisoned Alliance members or personally killing Horde members.

This level of reaching for accusing leaders like baine and thrall as 'not representing the horde' is just coming from people with a very shallow view of what the horde actually is, a pretty dated one at that.

Funny coming from someone whose view of what the Horde actually is is that Thrall set some golden inviolable and eternal standard of the Horde.

And no, pushing out those from a faction you represent isn't done so 'because your in league the the opposing faction', its done to present more death and conflict from happening in the first place.

The conflict was already ongoing. And Baine's decision didn't prevent more death for squat. The Alliance continued attacking Tauren in the area and even tried to breach into Mulgore after that. Besides, you don't know what you are talking about here. Which is shocking, might I add. Baine didn't push anyone out of any faction by exiling those Tauren @Gann Stonespire talked about. The exile in question wasn't kicking the Tauren in question out of the faction. It was exiling people from Thunder Bluff to the Barrens. They were still Thunder Bluff's subjects and Horde members.

The blood oath only covers other races preventing other races from seeking retribution. However, all leaders are free to lead their own people as they see fit.

Which part of "all members" did you not understand specifically? Besides, even pushing that aside, it's not the only violation of the Blood Oath Baine has committed during Tides of War alone. There's also, you know, the much bigger issue of him divulging sensitive military information to the enemy of the Horde.

[Ielenia]

Which part of "all members" did you not understand specifically? Besides, even pushing that aside, it's not the only violation of the Blood Oath Baine has committed during Tides of War alone. There's also, you know, the much bigger issue of him divulging sensitive military information to the enemy of the Horde.

The Warchief simply cannot tell how the groups within its banner how to rule its own members. Otherwise it'd be a simple thing for Garrosh to order Vol'jin to step down from his position of leadership of the trolls, and pick another troll who's more in line with Garrosh's leadership. Sylvanas could've done the same to the tauren, ordering Baine to step down from his position of leadership and putting in... I don't know, Magatha or someone else from the Grimtotem that better align with Sylvanas' desires.

After all, per your logic, that should be within the Warchief's purview.

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

The Warchief simply cannot tell how the groups within its banner how to rule its own members. Otherwise it'd be a simple thing for Garrosh to order Vol'jin to step down from his position of leadership of the trolls, and pick another troll who's more in line with Garrosh's leadership. Sylvanas could've done the same to the tauren, ordering Baine to step down from his position of leadership and putting in... I don't know, Magatha or someone else from the Grimtotem that better align with Sylvanas' desires.

After all, per your logic, that should be within the Warchief's purview.

Still, you'd think a Horde leader have right to expect more from a faction leader than giving intel to the enemy you're at war with, specially considering they actually started it, not your Horde or your Warchief.

I mean, if a leader commits blatant treason while breaking the basic rules of the horde, and the Warchief can't do squat about that, why even bother having Warchief?

[Ielenia]

Still, you'd think a Horde leader have right to expect more from a faction leader than giving intel to the enemy you're at war with, specially considering they actually started it, not your Horde or your Warchief.

I mean, if a leader commits blatant treason while breaking the basic rules of the horde, and the Warchief can't do squat about that, why even bother having Warchief?

I'm not contesting that.

I'm contesting this silly notion that Baine "broke the blood oath" when he forbade his tauren from attacking the Alliance after Taraujo and exiled those who did not abide by his ruling.

[Syegfryed]

The Warchief simply cannot tell how the groups within its banner how to rule its own members. .

the warchief have the right and power to do so in the moment the other races took te blood oath and joined the faction, in the "paper", but obviously, things are more complex than that and he will not do it for the sake of stability within the faction, if you force something like that it will only result in revolt

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

I'm not contesting that.

I'm contesting this silly notion that Baine "broke the blood oath" when he forbade his tauren from attacking the Alliance after Taraujo and exiled those who did not abide by his ruling.

Technically he did. The Blood Oath is pretty much the Hordes Constitution, and while it has been broken several times, Baines is particularly consistent, he did nothing to defend Mulgore but also exiled the people who tried to retaliate the Alliance invaders, who were, keep this in mind, acting according the Hordes laws, later he consistently helped those guys who killed the Tauren people, defended Garrosh on trial forsaking his own right of vengeance on him for challenging Cairne to a fight to the death, wich was against Thrall's laws, and even later asking for surrender over the corpse of rastakhan, without even presenting the whole thing as a "gaining time to lick our wounds" thing.

I can't think on any leader any less interested on the Hordes laws than him, to be honest.

[Ielenia]

the warchief have the right and power to do so in the moment the other races took te blood oath and joined the faction, in the "paper", but obviously, things are more complex than that and he will not do it for the sake of stability within the faction, if you force something like that it will only result in revolt

No, the warchief cannot. The warchief simply does not have the power to interfere with the internal affairs of any of the other groups within its banner. It's something heavily evidenced by the fact that we never saw the warchief never telling any of the other leaders how to rule their own people, even in times of crisis.

And this "he won't do it for the sake of stability within the faction" is bollocks. The Horde's stability was already in shambles during Garrosh's reign and a revolt happened, and during Sylvanas' reign, in which another revolt happened.

[Super Dickmann]

No, the warchief cannot. The warchief simply does not have the power to interfere with the internal affairs of any of the other groups within its banner. It's something heavily evidenced by the fact that we never saw the warchief never telling any of the other leaders how to rule their own people, even in times of crisis.

And this "he won't do it for the sake of stability within the faction" is bollocks. The Horde's stability was already in shambles during Garrosh's reign and a revolt happened, and during Sylvanas' reign, in which another revolt happened.

Of course they can, Thrall could put the Forsaken's capital under occupation and appoint Gallywix, then Gazlowe as goblin leaders. Garrosh could ban the use of the Blight. Sylvanas even considers appointing another troll leader in BTS. The Warchief has ultimate power in the Horde, all who've made the Blood Oath are his subjects. It's simply not done to that extent out of political considerations.

[Ielenia]

Technically he did.

"I'm saying Baine broke the blood oath multiple times, so I'll just say he did so multiple times."

The Blood Oath is pretty much the Hordes Constitution

The Horde is not a nation. It's an alliance of nations. The warchief of the Horde cannot interfere in the internal affairs of the other nations' within its banner. It's been demonstrated in the game several times when the warchief did not simply remove the dissenting leaders and appointed new leaders, more in line with their way of thinking.

defended Garrosh on trial forsaking his own right of vengeance on him for challenging Cairne to a fight to the death

According to the "blood oath" that you all seem to hold in high regard, all Horde members are "tools of the warchief", so why are you criticizing Baine for "doing his job as a Horde member" and protecting his "warchief"?

I can't think on any leader any less interested on the Hordes laws than him, to be honest.

Sylvanas, for one. On the other hand, I cannot think of any leader more interested in the spirit of the Horde than Baine, though.

[Doffen]

He is big and he is strong, just what the job requires.

[Ielenia]

Of course they can, Thrall could put the Forsaken's capital under occupation and appoint Gallywix, then Gazlowe as goblin leaders. Garrosh could ban the use of the Blight. Sylvanas even considers appointing another troll leader in BTS. The Warchief has ultimate power in the Horde, all who've made the Blood Oath are his subjects. It's simply not done to that extent out of political considerations.

• It's not the same thing. The Kor'kron were sent to aid in security with the bulk of the Forsaken army in Northrend. After the Wrathgate event, they remained to keep the peace within Undercity after the use of abominations (the apothecaries' constructs) were deemed not trustworthy. Notice how Sylvanas still remained in power, and no edict changing the way the Forsaken ruled itself was done, even after the Wrathgate.
• Thrall did not "put" Gallywix as the leader. He already was the Bilgewater Cartel leader. (On top of that, Thrall wasn't even leader of the Horde anymore, at that time) Likewise, Thrall did not "put" Gazlowe as the new leader of the goblins. Gallywix escaped, and Thrall asked Gazlowe to step up and lead the currently leaderless goblins.
• Banning the use of weapons of war, such as the Blight, is within the Warchief's purview as it is not "internal affairs". Especially when said bomb brings heavy risks to the Horde's own members.
• Then why didn't she?
• In the Horde, not in the nations under its banner. He is the ultimate authority for any and everything regarding the Horde, but he cannot do anything else regarding their internal affairs.
• ... Really? Garrosh and Sylvanas? "Political considerations"?