How Long Until Pay To Win Happens?

[iinverse]

You're wrong though.
Two players same skills and time to invest in the game.

Ok. I will write it again if you do not understand.

One has unlimited gold so he buys bis trinkets and boes as they become available on AH, consumeables 24/7.

There are no good boes at the start weeks. Also, 1-2 boes will no make big difference (as any boes came into minor slots like bracers/belts etc). For example,
difference between 400 and 445 bracer is like 40 0-450 dps (in case of ideal rotation, any mistakes will make difference less - like 100-200 dps).
Not a big deal.
Bis trinket now costs like 3-5k on AH, not a big deal either. Anyone can afford it. Besides, you can't buy really bis trinkets, it often drop from raids/m+, which you forced to do by yourself, because there are no gold carries at the starting weeks.

Spends ALL his time progressing his character towards raids.

He can't spend ALL time for progressing - rep/AP farm is the thing ant the start of xpac/patch, and you can't skip it for gold.
While doing rep/AP farm, you will eventually get some gold from emissary chests/WQs/etc.
I got something like 2 mils of gold from the beginning of BFA without speniding a hour for gold grind (I hate grind actually, and can even pay for skipping essences grind on alts, but cant, because there are no p2w unfortunately).

Player 2 has no bis trinkets

Er... why?
Any good player have a pack of gold on his main and easilly can afford bis trinket.
Even if its a fresh char - you will have something like 20-30k after leveling.

consumeables only for progression

Why you need to use consumables outside of progress? For killing trash mobs on WQs?

otherwise he ends up spending time farming gold while player one is progressing his character.

You don't need to farm gold nowadays, its not classic now )
You will get enough of it farming rep/wqs/AP-thing.

Many good players dont want to carry bads through weekly m+ or risk depleting a stone in a pug.

Two points:
1. There are NO carries for gold at first weeks of xpac (because they need to farm gear for theirselves before they starts carry).
2. There are a couple of communities targeted to m+ completion - any good player knows about it and have no prob finding a good party.

If you want to gear up an alt, boosts will always be more efficient, wether it be from guildies or boost teams.

I geared some alts to 440+ - its not a big deal. For example you can go straight to 10 key having full benthic gear, its enough for doing it in time. If you have skill ofc, not a shitty dps.

[Mellrod]

I don't see it happening.

What I do see happening, perhaps, are new Allied Races showing up in the store, with essentially useless racials so nobody has a coronary.

Goodness, don't give them ideas!

[Kaykay]

Ok. I will write it again if you do not understand.


There are no good boes at the start weeks. Also, 1-2 boes will no make big difference (as any boes came into minor slots like bracers/belts etc). For example,
difference between 400 and 445 bracer is like 40 0-450 dps (in case of ideal rotation, any mistakes will make difference less - like 100-200 dps).
Not a big deal.
Bis trinket now costs like 3-5k on AH, not a big deal either. Anyone can afford it. Besides, you can't buy really bis trinkets, it often drop from raids/m+, which you forced to do by yourself, because there are no gold carries at the starting weeks.


He can't spend ALL time for progressing - rep/AP farm is the thing ant the start of xpac/patch, and you can't skip it for gold.
While doing rep/AP farm, you will eventually get some gold from emissary chests/WQs/etc.
I got something like 2 mils of gold from the beginning of BFA without speniding a hour for gold grind (I hate grind actually, and can even pay for skipping essences grind on alts, but cant, because there are no p2w unfortunately).


Er... why?
Any good player have a pack of gold on his main and easilly can afford bis trinket.
Even if its a fresh char - you will have something like 20-30k after leveling.


Why you need to use consumables outside of progress? For killing trash mobs on WQs?


You don't need to farm gold nowadays, its not classic now )
You will get enough of it farming rep/wqs/AP-thing.


Two points:
1. There are NO carries for gold at first weeks of xpac (because they need to farm gear for theirselves before they starts carry).
2. There are a couple of communities targeted to m+ completion - any good player knows about it and have no prob finding a good party.


I geared some alts to 440+ - its not a big deal. For example you can go straight to 10 key having full benthic gear, its enough for doing it in time. If you have skill ofc, not a shitty dps.

You fail to engage with the hypothetical, yes if you are a player who has played for several expansions and millions of gold in the bank, buying gold will have less of an effect on your gameplay.

To say "gear doesnt matter"
If you didn't have to think about gold, you could potentially drop a few million on bis bracers/cloak/legs whatever boes drop from a raid first week. That'll help you on progression, not a ton. But more than if you didn't do it. Trinkets needed some wq/rare materials that wasnt readily available week one, locked behind questspawns and mythic lockouts. A trinket will cost more week 1 than later in the expansion, later in the expansion a boost might be better value than buying boes.


"You cant buy boosts week 1"
Gear that drops from HC, titanforges etc usually show up on AH. HC boosts are available from week 2.


"consumeables dont matter"
is just silly. Doing more damage means you kill things quicker, gliders get you around faster.

"You don't need to farm gold nowadays, its not classic now"
If you want bis boes, you'll have to farm gold. unless you got millions of gold lying around to buy that titanforge bis piece that every highend raider will want. You'll be competing with guild banks.

You not finding the above a problem, does not make the token any less paytowin. It's an advantage to have unlimited gold, nomatter how you spin it.

[dacoolist]

Ok. I will write it again if you do not understand.


There are no good boes at the start weeks. Also, 1-2 boes will no make big difference (as any boes came into minor slots like bracers/belts etc). For example,
difference between 400 and 445 bracer is like 40 0-450 dps (in case of ideal rotation, any mistakes will make difference less - like 100-200 dps).
Not a big deal.
Bis trinket now costs like 3-5k on AH, not a big deal either. Anyone can afford it. Besides, you can't buy really bis trinkets, it often drop from raids/m+, which you forced to do by yourself, because there are no gold carries at the starting weeks.


He can't spend ALL time for progressing - rep/AP farm is the thing ant the start of xpac/patch, and you can't skip it for gold.
While doing rep/AP farm, you will eventually get some gold from emissary chests/WQs/etc.
I got something like 2 mils of gold from the beginning of BFA without speniding a hour for gold grind (I hate grind actually, and can even pay for skipping essences grind on alts, but cant, because there are no p2w unfortunately).


Er... why?
Any good player have a pack of gold on his main and easilly can afford bis trinket.
Even if its a fresh char - you will have something like 20-30k after leveling.


Why you need to use consumables outside of progress? For killing trash mobs on WQs?


You don't need to farm gold nowadays, its not classic now )
You will get enough of it farming rep/wqs/AP-thing.


Two points:
1. There are NO carries for gold at first weeks of xpac (because they need to farm gear for theirselves before they starts carry).
2. There are a couple of communities targeted to m+ completion - any good player knows about it and have no prob finding a good party.


I geared some alts to 440+ - its not a big deal. For example you can go straight to 10 key having full benthic gear, its enough for doing it in time. If you have skill ofc, not a shitty dps.

I agree btw with all of your points - what I want to add in not only that I've LEGIT watched trade chat and the forums to see the view the people in trade advertising these carry for gold situations on my high pop server - each point you made is spot on

That although doesn't mean KK will come back with "Well you points dont work because of strawman arg point 1 2 3" the issue with talking to people on mmo-c.com is that most people that are posting aren't active wow subscribers - they played at a different time and they dont understand jack shit about bfa because they either got banned or they are just bad and cant hang at the bfa level (it really is grindy, and a shit show, but the skillful parts of BFA unfortunately destroys most people on these forums) Hence the reason they will come back with some BS statedment because they just don't have what it takes/think wow's p2w when all you legit can do with gold is purchase some random ass BOE that literally DOESNT EVEN HELP you when you're a scrublord lfr player to begin with.

Look at the best players at the top of the PVP ladder or at the tip top of the warcraft logs ladder: Guess what.. most of them are using GIMMICK shit to get their numbers or they have skillful players that play BEYOND a little boe item, these players are beyond gear: it's down to either SKILL, or again on wclogs.. PLAYING the system so your meters look insane by crazy aoe or crazy people taking TONS of extra damage for healing logs etc - it's ALL down to that player

Pay To Win means you Paid a game company money to WIN.. buying an item in wow doesn't make you a winner lol

[Mayia]

I guess it depends on what you want to win AT.

you can buy carrys for gold, using wowtokens to buy said gold and pay a third party to obtain you mythic level gear, you can like wise use a more illegal system to buy rating in pvp or have somebody carry/help you to a lesser extent, but there isn't a way to throw 100$ and defeat a raid boss with a click of a button.. somebody else has to do the work you wont put it.

So i don't think the game is yet pay to win, but wow isn't a great pay to win system anyway as it is now you get more than enough free gear to complete your world quests and afk in cities.. if its mythic or heroic it only makes a couple of seconds difference.. if that.

[iinverse]

You fail to engage with the hypothetical, yes if you are a player who has played for several expansions and millions of gold in the bank, buying gold will have less of an effect on your gameplay.

You don't need millions to progress, a a couple of hundred thousands and one expansion playing is enough.
Ofc if you're new, you can throw some tokens just to be on par with mediocre players.

To say "gear doesnt matter"
If you didn't have to think about gold, you could potentially drop a few million on bis bracers/cloak/legs whatever boes drop from a raid first week. That'll help you on progression, not a ton. But more than if you didn't do it.

I already pointed how much difference will you have for buying a couple of boes.
Like 1-2%. Not worth it. Any lucky shot from player 1 withiut gold (like procced wq piece of cear - and there are no difference at all).

Trinkets needed some wq/rare materials that wasnt readily available week one, locked behind questspawns and mythic lockouts. A trinket will cost more week 1 than later in the expansion, later in the expansion a boost might be better value than buying boes.

Yep, trinkets will not available from day1, this will allow players to get some gold from rep/wq farm till its availability.

"You cant buy boosts week 1"
Gear that drops from HC, titanforges etc usually show up on AH.

Only minor slots, that adds something 1-2% to dps. Very minor factor to drop a huge amounts of gold here.

HC boosts are available from week 2.

Only for real money. Gold boosts will available much later.

"consumeables dont matter"
is just silly. Doing more damage means you kill things quicker, gliders get you around faster.

You mostly need to tap more mobs than actually do damage outside of rprogress, so consumables doesn't matter here.

"You don't need to farm gold nowadays, its not classic now"

If you want bis boes, you'll have to farm gold.

"Bis boe" now is a socketed benthic gear which you cannot buy for gold. Later it will be corrupted gear. Next xpac it will be some sort of "void" or other shit-like gear.

It's an advantage to have unlimited gold, nomatter how you spin it.

Its adventage for collectioneers (to buy expensive mounts/pets), not for progressing.

[glowpipe]

I guess we all have different definitions of pay to win.

In a shooter/resource game, buying the better more overpowered weapons or buying a surplus of resources creates an arms race. A race where if your opponents don’t do the same, they lose. No other outcome is available.

Players buying the tokens to purchase boosts is just not the same result. Once they find a boost group, they are dragged through the content, maybe getting a few pieces or a mount or title. They would have to spend a great deal to receive a full set.

And if that happens? That’s it’s. They aren’t guaranteed anything else. They have a full set of gear, maybe a mount and title. They aren’t one shorting people in PvP, nor gaining instant invite to other mythic raid runs or M+.

They still have neither the skill or ability to use that bought gear to do anything with. Without rio score they still won’t get invited.

The difference is in the result. They aren’t overpowered in any meaningful way.

But buying the gear directly from blizzard doesn't change that. They still won't get the skill or ability to use the gear. And that has kinda been my point. The type of "pay to win" we would get in this game, is not much different from buying boosts. Sure, it takes longer, but its technically the same and already doable.

[123youshowme]

amusing how people use the guise of "technicalities" to push their agendas.

you cannot buy character power from blizzard. you can't buy raid/dungeon/pvp achievments from blizzard. you can only purchase gold and cosmetics. gold cannot be used to buy a full set of relevant gear.

wow would become p2w if they introduced "platinum" that you buy directly from them with no alternative source,and you could buy gear that's actually usable in a raid/dungeon/pvp environment from platinum vendors scattered across the world.

[Heathy]

what would be the point of playing a game with gear progression if the only way to get the best gear was to pay real money for it? the whole concept of selling powerful gear that you can't get in the game is something that just doesn't exist in the literal sense. there are no games that are like this. as there would be no point in progressing through it only to reach as far as you can and then need to pull out your wallet to get the best gear, when you could have done that at the start and skipped everything you did to make it to pre-p2w gear. the idea is a fallacy, it wouldn't work in an mmo, literal pay to win, being able to buy better gear than what you get from playing the game. it can't work as a system as it undermines the entire game that it would be in. there would be no point in progressing at all if the best gear is right there for real money.

you aren't buying powerful gear, you are buying time savers that allow you to spend your time doing other more beneficial things. gold can be used as an investment, it can allow you to reach ilvl req faster than someone who isn't buying gold, it can be used to buy mounts and boost your profs, it can be used to gear up alts and create twinks. it can be used to pay for boosts through content. etc etc. none of this is buying power directly, you are buying the need to grind less. waste less time fucking around and more time moving forward.

[123youshowme]

what would be the point of playing a game with gear progression if the only way to get the best gear was to pay real money for it? the whole concept of selling powerful gear that you can't get in the game is something that just doesn't exist in the literal sense. there are no games that are like this. as there would be no point in progressing through it only to reach as far as you can and then need to pull out your wallet to get the best gear, when you could have done that at the start and skipped everything you did to make it to pre-p2w gear. the idea is a fallacy, it wouldn't work in an mmo, literal pay to win, being able to buy better gear than what you get from playing the game. it can't work as a system as it undermines the entire game that it would be in. there would be no point in progressing at all if the best gear is right there for real money.

you aren't buying powerful gear, you are buying time savers that allow you to spend your time doing other more beneficial things.

Gold doesn't shorten the repgrinds you need to make.

[Heathy]

but you can spend more time grinding rep and less time grinding gold right? because you don't need gold, but you do need rep. so you can skip all that gold grinding and head straight for the rep.

[123youshowme]

but you can spend more time grinding rep and less time grinding gold right? because you don't need gold, but you do need rep. so you can skip all that gold grinding and head straight for the rep.

you don't need gold for anything, like at all. you get most of your consumables budget from just doing world quests. so no, gold offers you absolutely no benefits, power wise.

[Heathy]

you are right the gold doesn't, the stuff you buy with it on the other hand does. what you are buying is a fast track to the end. you are skipping tedium and grind to reach a comfortable spot, faster than someone who isn't buying said gold.

player A joins game, boosts to max, buys wow token, sells for gold, uses that gold to boost his professions to max. he now has money making professions. without grinding a single mat themselves.

player B joins game, boosts to max, doesn't buy wow token, doesn't instantly get 200k+ gold, has to manually grind said professions before they start making money.

[123youshowme]

you are right the gold doesn't, the stuff you buy with it on the other hand does. what you are buying is a fast track to the end. you are skipping tedium and grind to reach a comfortable spot, faster than someone who isn't buying said gold.

No, because, again, you get more than enough gold for consumables and whatever by just killing bosses and doing the grinds that you need to do anyway.

So again, gold offers you no real competitive advantage.

You aint skipping shit by having more gold.

[Heathy]

You aint skipping shit by having more gold.

no but yes but no but.

might wanna learn what is possible in the game first my dude. you can do a lot of grind skipping with gold.

I think personally boosting your professions on day 1 would be quite a big one, just take your gold to the auction house, buy all the mats you need to power level it up to max and then start making gold with that profession. no need to grind mats, just take your gold that you just got from selling a wow token to the auction house and start buying the mats you need.

[iinverse]

you can do a lot of grind skipping with gold.

You skip nothing with gold.

[Heathy]

you skip the need to grind gold.

you guys are fucking deluded and ignorant as hell. or just deliberately being about as disingenuous as you could possibly be, i'm starting to think you don't actually play the game because you seem to not really know much about how it functions.

for a start, like i just said above that you ignored, you can skip a whole lot of profession grinding if you can just buy all the mats out the auction house with gold you got from selling a token or two.

i could sell several tokens and boost several professions from 0 to max. on various alts. i could have a alchemy char, a tailor an enchanter all maxed without grinding a single mat myself. just by selling tokens and buying all the mats i need to reach max prof level and start making money with those professions.

not needing to grind all those mats myself saved me a pretty decent amount of time, time i can now spend doing other things, like important things. rep grinding, ap grinding, raiding, m+. while the dudes who didn't boost their profs have to grind them out manually themselves.

[iinverse]

you skip the need to grind gold.

You do not need to grind gold in retail wow! Its not vanilla now.
You will get enough of it form usual game activities.

[Kaykay]

You skip nothing with gold.

indeed, gold doesn't matter. might aswell delete the auction houses. Cause every player is self sufficient without spending any time on gold activities. xD dont bother with prebis or consumeables either, they do nothing for efficiency.

[Heathy]

You do not need to grind gold in retail wow! Its not vanilla now.
You will get enough of it form usual game activities.

so? what does that have to do with anything, you also get enough from selling a wow token and buying gear that will let you progress faster.

lets say i'm 20 ilvl below the requirement to start doing normal pugs. but i just sold a bunch of wow tokens and i can buy that 20ilvl in boes right from the auction house. that means i can get into that pug. by spending money to hit the requirement.

some other guy who isn't selling tokens may not be able to afford to just blow a few 100k on transitory boe's. so they can't make the ilvl requirement in time.

same for the LFR, imagine two dudes week 1 pushing to get saved to the LFR just to get in there and grab a upgrade before it resets.

guy buying gold can hit that requirement because they have the gold to buy the items they need to reach it.


I know this is a thing because i've been in that position, a few ilvl too low for some content, maybe the lfr, maybe normal or heroic pug, but oh look that boe will get me to the ilvl i need. if you have the gold to blow, you can do that, if you don't maybe you aint getting saved that week.