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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Artelia View Post
    Alleria betrayed her people and her family when first intercourse with Turalyon happened. Same goes for Veressa.
    What about Sylvanas tho? She slept with a human long before Alleria had a one-night stand with Turalyon.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    Alleria, was just an elf womb for a human, nothing else, her purpossed its done
    Holy shit that's so sexist and blatantly wrong.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    The nightborne themselves were also an asspull, since back in Warcraft III there was no mention or element whatsoever that hinted at the presence of a big ass bubble literally behind the Tomb of Sargeras.
    I always viewed the nightborne as blizzards attempt to show us pre-sundering kaldorei culture that coontinued in the vein of the kaldorei just befor re the sundering. They litereally said that was their intention with Suramar and the nightborne, they wanted to show as a pristine night elven pre-sundering city and explore that more. it was properly planned, and well executed. It took enormous resources to design Suramar, and the story telling , progress and path over the 2 patches it was told has been one of the best in thentire MMO series that I have played through.

    They were planned, the night elves of Suramar being nightborneI suspect was two fold, I suspect originally they were going to use night elf models, so much indicates this, but like usually happens blizzard tends to give vvariations of existing races in new content, and it was fitting that night elves finally got a sub-race, besides they could tell an even more interesting story to account for the visual change. that was the first motivation. Second was I feel they wanted a sub-race for the highborne tha twasn't visually done with the shen'dralar. It worked, but Suramar being a bubble allowed it to have it's own unique story apart from the other night elves, including the shen'dralar who did a similar thing except without a bubble and resulted in falling to ruin.

    I often wonder how much more we may have enjoyed the void elves if they were actually told over a zone like Nyalotha or were developed during the Mac'aree quests of legion. Or even had their own mini book/story written.

    I feel they feel like an arse pull because of the lack of detail and time given to develop them, very much unlike the nightborne.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I always viewed the nightborne as blizzards attempt to show us pre-sundering kaldorei culture that coontinued in the vein of the kaldorei just befor re the sundering. They litereally said that was their intention with Suramar and the nightborne, they wanted to show as a pristine night elven pre-sundering city and explore that more. it was properly planned, and well executed. It took enormous resources to design Suramar, and the story telling , progress and path over the 2 patches it was told has been one of the best in thentire MMO series that I have played through.

    They were planned, the night elves of Suramar being nightborneI suspect was two fold, I suspect originally they were going to use night elf models, so much indicates this, but like usually happens blizzard tends to give vvariations of existing races in new content, and it was fitting that night elves finally got a sub-race, besides they could tell an even more interesting story to account for the visual change. that was the first motivation. Second was I feel they wanted a sub-race for the highborne tha twasn't visually done with the shen'dralar. It worked, but Suramar being a bubble allowed it to have it's own unique story apart from the other night elves, including the shen'dralar who did a similar thing except without a bubble and resulted in falling to ruin.

    I often wonder how much more we may have enjoyed the void elves if they were actually told over a zone like Nyalotha or were developed during the Mac'aree quests of legion. Or even had their own mini book/story written.

    I feel they feel like an arse pull because of the lack of detail and time given to develop them, very much unlike the nightborne.
    Okay but they were still an asspull, because I just replayed Maiev campaign in WC3, and I can assure you, literally nobody of the characters present there (Maiev, Illidan, Tyrande, Malfurion, etc. so not "noobs") ever pointed out how there is a giant magical bubble in the distance and what could it hide.

    I personally care about world-building only up to a certain point. Lore is not story, I do not care if the void elves have 30 different customs and traditions if they do not actually have a role in the story. So far I am satisfied with the role the void elves have played in BfA.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    You're right, I had forgotten that, that was the perfect set up.
    Implying they don't know their lore that well, at the boldest, or don't maximise their already established works.

    I thought I understood why they went with blood elves for primarily constituting the void elves, but indeed, the Netherstorm blood elves could have been an interesting insight.. alas, Alleria, Umbric and his followers have a very high moral ethic they are portrayed as behaving quite honoruably all the time, with their only "crime" being to have insisted on vcontinuing studying the power of the void to exploit it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Okay but they were still an asspull, because I just replayed Maiev campaign in WC3, and I can assure you, literally nobody of the characters present there (Maiev, Illidan, Tyrande, Malfurion, etc. so not "noobs") ever pointed out how there is a giant magical bubble in the distance and what could it hide.

    I personally care about world-building only up to a certain point. Lore is not story, I do not care if the void elves have 30 different customs and traditions if they do not actually have a role in the story. So far I am satisfied with the role the void elves have played in BfA.
    I don't dooubt that, it was retrofitted back into the world, and no real official explanation given for the lack of its visible presence in WC3, or explaining why WotA describes Maiev (also from there) as mourning her destroyed home city (bare in mind Tyrande, The Stormrage twins, the Shadowsongs were all Suramar citizens

    What's worse is how little a role they play in the returned city, but that is very typical of blizzard, ignoring previous people connected with the place they bring up. Some bery key ones. - it goes down to how they manage their story and world, it's not been managed very well ino actually giving hte appearance to all the people and connecting the dots that link into some of the places they visit - this has clearly been the case since Cataclysm.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Implying they don't know their lore that well, at the boldest, or don't maximise their already established works.

    I thought I understood why they went with blood elves for primarily constituting the void elves, but indeed, the Netherstorm blood elves could have been an interesting insight.. alas, Alleria, Umbric and his followers have a very high moral ethic they are portrayed as behaving quite honoruably all the time, with their only "crime" being to have insisted on vcontinuing studying the power of the void to exploit it.
    Well fighting fire with fire is an old story trope, even if that particular fire is considered volatile, but when Blizzard decided to make Void just another cosmic force, I don't see it as anymore dangerous than Fel. They both corrupt in different ways. Hell, after the X'era shenanigans, I'd say The Light corrupts just as well. The brainwashed don't know they're being corrupted, that's why it's called brainwashing. The Light might be the most deceitful of the cosmic forces because it fools you into a sense of righteousness, when in reality it's self-righteousness and indiscriminately xenophobic to anything not like it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Ah so a fanboy/girl wants their character to get more screen time?

    Well sorry, BUT Alleira is waaay weaker of a character then Lor'themar in almost everyway. Saying anything else is being completely dismissive of facts and events. Alleria shouldn't have been brought back after Legion her story was wrapped up nicely with a bow (almost literally), anything else is pandering to a selective audience. Making more story for a already overwhelming uninteresting character never works, and usually gets left unfinished. They gave her a unique power, made her a master, trying to force her to be a part of the story while her story in it self was/is done, while continuning to make her a ultimately boring character that doesn't really have a point.

    Although if done right, with proper build up, a Elven Civil War would've been cool to see!

    - - - Updated - - -



    But he hasn't and never was, this person is just being dismissive of facts because Lor'themar is a badass, and one of the few leaders in all of Warcraft that actually acts like a reasonable leader
    Not really, he went expansions with no development at all...then he spends this expansion sits back and plays complete Sylvanas murderfest loyalist, and now his arc in this expansion ends with him lusting after Thaly.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Well fighting fire with fire is an old story trope, even if that particular fire is considered volatile, but when Blizzard decided to make Void just another cosmic force, I don't see it as anymore dangerous than Fel. They both corrupt in different ways. Hell, after the X'era shenanigans, I'd say The Light corrupts just as well. The brainwashed don't know they're being corrupted, that's why it's called brainwashing. The Light might be the most deceitful of the cosmic forces because it fools you into a sense of righteousness, when in reality it's self-righteousness and indiscriminately xenophobic to anything not like it.
    That was already done in WoD with Ner'zhul, who was able to use the Void as a means to raise undead. It is not really something that Alleria and the Void Elves introduced.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-12-26 at 10:39 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    That was already done in WoD with Ner'zhul, who was able to use the Void as a means to raise undead. It is not really something that Alleria and the Void Elves introduced.
    Void Elves haven't really raised the dead, have they? I haven't seen Alleria or Umbric actually use The Void to do anything morally-questionable at all other than the actual act of just associating with it being questionable itself. That's exactly my point, though. The Void isn't anymore dangerous than Fel, Death or even The Light which is on a complete opposite of the color spectrum.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Void Elves haven't really raised the dead, have they? I haven't seen Alleria or Umbric actually use The Void to do anything morally-questionable at all other than the actual act of just associating with it being questionable itself. That's exactly my point, though. The Void isn't anymore dangerous than Fel, Death or even The Light which is on a complete opposite of the color spectrum.
    Umbric and a few of his void mages raise some dead animals in the Zuldazar campaign, though they are just mere bones kept together by void energy.

    My point is that you mentioned how in newer lore the Void has been reduced to another cosmic force that can be exploited by mortals, and I pointed out how that already happened in WoD.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Umbric and some of his void mages raise some dead animals in the Zuldazar campaign, though they are just mere bones kept together by void energy.

    My point is that you mentioned how in newer lore the Void has been reduced to another cosmic force that can be exploited by mortals, and I pointed out how that already happened in WoD.
    Oooh, ok, good point. The only difference is, Ner'zhul was not part of the Alliance, and Umbric is, so yeah, the first time Alliance characters dabbled in it was BfA, not that it matters. Warlocks and Death Knights have done things much worse than re-animate some bones.

  12. #52
    Umbric actually does a morally grey thing in BfA. I am not referring to the raised dinosaurs, because that is just bones infused with void magic, who actually gives a shit. The sinister thing he does is sending enemy miners straight into the Void, where they certainly will not be having a good time. However this passes under the radar, likely because Umbric is a relatively minor leader of the Alliance. He is not too different from Sylvanas back in Classic. She had the Royal Apothecary Society carry out disgusting experiments in the shadows, and those experiments only came to light during the Battle of the Undercity.

    EDIT: Actually I just checked because I had a doubt and Umbric does not actually send people to the void but just robots. Still, poor robots, I am sure someone will miss them.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2019-12-26 at 10:55 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    What about Sylvanas tho? She slept with a human long before Alleria had a one-night stand with Turalyon.
    The entire windrunner family needs to be purged, Alleria and Sylvanas might be equal, Nathanos was not in training prior to the second war so it is likely both started banging humans during the war.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Yes, but a better executed asspull!
    Not really, especially considering the Wc3 events on the broken isles and Maiev taking a tour of the ruined city, the nightborne just seem better fleshed out, despite being a blood elf clone.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Not really, he went expansions with no development at all...then he spends this expansion sits back and plays complete Sylvanas murderfest loyalist, and now his arc in this expansion ends with him lusting after Thaly.
    He's had development ever since Wotlk with his short story and various other appearances in stories,comics,game events,mentions and his whole arc in MoP which is where he truly became a defined strong character and his "arc" (which wasn't fleshed out) against Sylvanas in BfA, which is understandable to overlook because it had little to no detail only a line about "hoping his people will stand with him", but him being a "murderfest loyalist" literally didn't even happen, so I don't know what you're dreaming up there...but okay, Alleria somehow had more character development, okay pal.LOL.
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2019-12-27 at 04:05 AM.

  15. #55
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    He's had development ever since Wotlk with his short story and various other appearances in stories,comics,game events,mentions and his whole arc in MoP which is where he truly became a defined strong character and his "arc" (which wasn't fleshed out) against Sylvanas in BfA, which is understandable to overlook because it had little to no detail only a line about "hoping his people will stand with him", but him being a "murderfest loyalist" literally didn't even happen, so I don't know what you're dreaming up there...but okay, Alleria somehow had more character development, okay pal.LOL.
    He really hasn't and he was completely loyal to her while she was slaughtering people for her master. I'm not the one pretending things happened differently.

    Letting it happen and looking the other way while being complacent may as well be support, he did nothing to stop it because he was more concerned with getting laid apparently. Too busy chasing tail to worry about the murder he was serving, but hey...it wouldn't be the first time the Blood Elves overlooked heinous acts

    Maybe he was complacent because he thought it would make Thaly happy? She was rather bloodthirsty at the beginning of BFA, wanted to burn down the same Alliance that helped free her people after they gave into the Demons without a fight.
    Last edited by Kithelle; 2019-12-27 at 04:29 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    What about Sylvanas tho? She slept with a human long before Alleria had a one-night stand with Turalyon.
    Even if this was truth and not another headcanon. I don't see any halfbreed offspring of Sylvanas. If i see them i will glady add her to the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah. Ok. Mmhm. Sure.

    See you around.
    I think you don't understand how actually terrible and inadmissible this actually is.

    Her family live for thousand years since sundering and maybe even longer. Her House was strong and they were noble even among others. And Alleria's choice was make offsprings with race that was younger that her family. Not only it stoped and destroyed whole bloodline because other siblings are either dead or do same. But something like this is actually worse than betrayal mainly because she choose that her children will not be elves anymore. She forsake her race because love with person that should have been dead long ago (if the blizzard didn't come up with the idea of making Turalyon immortal). This is not about love and flowers. This is fact. And even when i could understand why she do it. (people that are with love are sometimes crazy) It doesn't make her betrayal any better. Alleria and Veressa are not bad characters in general. But they were so badly writen to Alliance lore that anything they will ever do never delete fact they choosed love with human rather that own race and family.

    I got it. You are high elf fan. I can see it from your previous post. But don't let your vision of thalassian elves under Alliance banner cloud your eyes. High Elves under Alliance banner needs better protagonist. Protagonist who actually like their race. Not two females that was totally destroyed by writers who never feel love for this universe and just wanted create books similiar to Tolkien.


    (And even halfbreed in Tolkien saga were sterille. Practially every fantasy ever just made halfbreeds sterile or not possible at all. It's quite enigma why races in Warcraft still exist with something like this.)
    Last edited by Artelia; 2019-12-27 at 07:50 AM.

  17. #57
    nah, the less we get of her the better

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Umbric actually does a morally grey thing in BfA. I am not referring to the raised dinosaurs, because that is just bones infused with void magic, who actually gives a shit. The sinister thing he does is sending enemy miners straight into the Void, where they certainly will not be having a good time. However this passes under the radar, likely because Umbric is a relatively minor leader of the Alliance. He is not too different from Sylvanas back in Classic. She had the Royal Apothecary Society carry out disgusting experiments in the shadows, and those experiments only came to light during the Battle of the Undercity.

    EDIT: Actually I just checked because I had a doubt and Umbric does not actually send people to the void but just robots. Still, poor robots, I am sure someone will miss them.
    I was just about to say, glad you checked and corrected yourself. If you click on him during certain quest phases, Umbric is really a good guy, and so is Alleria, the void elves really seem to be intended to or written to be in the honourable high elf mould, and unlike the Silver Covenant, they actually love the blood elves and want to win them over, not kill them, it is the horde they view as monsters that must be stopped.

    This indicates to me that there is a large anti horde sentiment amongst the blood elves, which makes sense given the character of the high elf race, the history and the nearly switching factions several times . Sadly they dont write them that well either, I would expect a little more horde mistrust for the blood elves and a little more evidence of dissatisfaction with the horde amongst blood elves rather than wait for the big events like faction switching or void elves to remind us this exists amongst them.

    The void elves could be used to rid the blood elves of all the alliance sympathizers and lovers among that faction, but I dont think it should be. However if it was I wouldnt be surprised if the blood elves lost nearly 40% of their members to the void elves, especially after BFA events.

    Sadly blizzard just doesnt properly address faction dissatisfaction or complexity well enough. If they did, we'd have Nightborne, Draenei, Blood elves, Forsaken, Tauren, Mechagnomes, Humans, Kul'tirans, Highmountain, Lightforged, Goblins all have factions amongst their race group, some even large that would be friendly with the other faction - night elves would insist on having a co tinge t in the horde as the only acceptable way to ensure the horde would never attack the night elves (think of it initially as monitoring / supervision)

    Some races based on existing lore would not have significant numbers to qualify as having a faction amingst them friendly or working g with the opposite side. They include Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves Gnomes, Dark Irons, Zandalari, Vulpera, Mag'har, Worgen, Void elves (mainly because currently they utterly rejected by the blood elf leadership, despite desperately wanting their kin on board)

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I was just about to say, glad you checked and corrected yourself. If you click on him during certain quest phases, Umbric is really a good guy, and so is Alleria, the void elves really seem to be intended to or written to be in the honourable high elf mould, and unlike the Silver Covenant, they actually love the blood elves and want to win them over, not kill them, it is the horde they view as monsters that must be stopped.

    This indicates to me that there is a large anti horde sentiment amongst the blood elves, which makes sense given the character of the high elf race, the history and the nearly switching factions several times . Sadly they dont write them that well either, I would expect a little more horde mistrust for the blood elves and a little more evidence of dissatisfaction with the horde amongst blood elves rather than wait for the big events like faction switching or void elves to remind us this exists amongst them.

    The void elves could be used to rid the blood elves of all the alliance sympathizers and lovers among that faction, but I dont think it should be. However if it was I wouldnt be surprised if the blood elves lost nearly 40% of their members to the void elves, especially after BFA events.

    Sadly blizzard just doesnt properly address faction dissatisfaction or complexity well enough. If they did, we'd have Nightborne, Draenei, Blood elves, Forsaken, Tauren, Mechagnomes, Humans, Kul'tirans, Highmountain, Lightforged, Goblins all have factions amongst their race group, some even large that would be friendly with the other faction - night elves would insist on having a co tinge t in the horde as the only acceptable way to ensure the horde would never attack the night elves (think of it initially as monitoring / supervision)

    Some races based on existing lore would not have significant numbers to qualify as having a faction amingst them friendly or working g with the opposite side. They include Orcs, Trolls, Dwarves Gnomes, Dark Irons, Zandalari, Vulpera, Mag'har, Worgen, Void elves (mainly because currently they utterly rejected by the blood elf leadership, despite desperately wanting their kin on board)
    Even so Alleria is willing to put aside her hatred for the Horde for the good of the planet, so much so that she is the only one in 8.2.5 who suggests a truce with Sylvanas to fight N'Zoth with their combined might.

    The Void Elves are definitely meant to be honorable. They use a shadowy power known to consume the world but they do it for the noble purpose of protecting it. They are not too different from the Illidari.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Even so Alleria is willing to put aside her hatred for the Horde for the good of the planet, so much so that she is the only one in 8.2.5 who suggests a truce with Sylvanas to fight N'Zoth with their combined might.

    The Void Elves are definitely meant to be honorable. They use a shadowy power known to consume the world but they do it for the noble purpose of protecting it. They are not too different from the Illidari.
    Agreed, they do come across as less edgy too, but edgy enough almost like cool good guys, whereas the Illidari are more your bad boy anti-hero, although some of the night elf Illidari are very presceint and seem to have their heads on straight.

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