Let the Bailouts begin! First up, Boomers Pensions!

[Orange Joe]

Yes? And?....



I support them being compensated as is their right. I'd prefer the corporations be punished, but the first priority is giving to them what is owed.

Let me help you out, It looks to me like you want to pick a fight for no actual reason.

Why am I not surprised with you......
-snip-

[Theodarzna]

Why am I not surprised with you......

[...]

Honestly I am waiting for you to really express what your gripe is.

[Orange Joe]

Honestly I am waiting for you to really express what your gripe is.

Your hypocrisy? One minute it's ok they get a bailout yet you say you don't support bailouts? Christ do you not read what you type?

[AeneasBK]

You are literally defending the boomers getting a bail out from the government in your first post.

I love a bit of forum banter as much as the next but isn't this just saying "They are owed this money" and not explicitly "the government should be the ones paying it"

Sorry it's lat-ish on Boxing day and I'm not sober and this last page is confusing.

[Orange Joe]

I love a bit of forum banter as much as the next but isn't this just saying "They are owed this money" and not explicitly "the government should be the ones paying it"

Sorry it's lat-ish on Boxing day and I'm not sober and this last page is confusing.

That is the topic of this thread... in which she defended as ok that they are getting bailed out. yet 1 post later said it should be the companie/owner that pays it or they get nothing.

[Theodarzna]

Your hypocrisy? One minute it's ok they get a bailout yet you say you don't support bailouts? Christ do you not read what you type?

I never said I was against a bailout? I said in response to kvetching about it that these people were promised something and they should receive what was promised.

You are simply looking for a fight.

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That is the topic of this thread... in which she defended as ok that they are getting bailed out. yet 1 post later said it should be the companie/owner that pays it or they get nothing.

Big citation needed on that one mate.

[Orange Joe]

I never said I was against a bailout? I said in response to kvetching about it that these people were promised something and they should receive what was promised.

You are simply looking for a fight.

I argue that it should be the corporations that made the promises and from their assets the money drafted. Even if it obliterates the business, a deal is a deal.

As for public pensions, that is the same except that State's can simply get bailed out and spend forever so it doesn't matter.

Going forward, these organizations shouldn't make promises they have no intent of keeping.

....... jesus christ you can't be this ignorant as to not understand what you yourself are saying?????


Very serious question... is English not your first language?


AS you said a deal is a deal. The government has 0 part of that deal.....

[Theodarzna]

....... jesus christ you can't be this ignorant as to not understand what you yourself are saying?????


Very serious question... is English not your first language?

So i never said "Or they get nothing".

I am an ESL teacher, so I think I can help you get a better grasp of the language.

I stated that I'd prefer the corporations be liquidated and made to pay their promises. Not that the people expecting pensions should get nothing otherwise. You just made that up to have a fight. The only person saying that is you.

[Orange Joe]

So i never said "Or they get nothing".

I am an ESL teacher, so I think I can help you get a better grasp of the language.

I stated that I'd prefer the corporations be liquidated and made to pay their promises. Not that the people expecting pensions should get nothing otherwise. You just made that up to have a fight. The only person saying that is you.

Where would they get it if they didn't pay? As I asked in my first question, why should the government be responsible for someone else deal? What would stop someone from making a company, employing their family, promising large pensions, then shutting down and making the government pay.

[Theodarzna]

Where would they get it if they didn't pay? As I asked in my first question, why should the government be responsible for someone else deal? What would stop someone from making a company, employing their family, promising large pensions, then shutting down and making the government pay.

Well, using that logic brain, the assumption, assuming you weren't just looking to pick and fight and reading things into posts in a way that is such a strawman that even others have pointed out that you are way off base, is that I am fine with the bailout by the State but feel corporations whose actions were scummy should be punished.

Or you could construct an elaborate strawman, flail about for internet forum points, and demand I uphold a position I don't and that you conjured in your own mind for the sake of MMO-OC forum points.

[Orange Joe]

Well, using that logic brain, the assumption, assuming you weren't just looking to pick and fight and reading things into posts in a way that is such a strawman that even others have pointed out that you are way off base, is that I am fine with the bailout by the State but feel corporations whose actions were scummy should be punished.

Or you could construct an elaborate strawman, flail about for internet forum points, and demand I uphold a position I don't and that you conjured in your own mind for the sake of MMO-OC forum points.

-snip-


So let me ask you very bluntly cause you seem to go back and forth here.


Do you or do you not support this bailout from the government.
[Infraction]

[Theodarzna]

So let me ask you very bluntly cause you seem to go back and forth here.


Do you or do you not support this bailout from the government.

If you had followed the conversation you'd see that I don't have a problem with government paying for it. So you are fishing for something.

[Draco-Onis]

That's your government issue, it's not a private company thing.

I don't know how it works in USA, but here pension fund is mandatory by law and it's not some "maybe sometime later you will get paid", but every company is required mandatory to transfer a part of your salary (between 5% to 6.5% - your choice) to 3rd party pension fund licensed, regulated and guaranteed by the state, then they toss another 5% - 6.5% on top of that of their own money to your fund for a total of 10-13% of whatever you earn. Every payroll - mandatory.

That's how it works here, so nobody can later on say "whelp it's some private company too bad" thing. If this is not how it works in US, then maybe instead of "we don't care" - go ahead and care and do something about it, instead of being sheep.

I think the reason we disagree is because you don't know the American system we used to have a system similar to yours but it has been phased out thanks to lobbying by wall street and private companies. Most Americans do not have pensions but 401Ks with high fees which are far inferior and social security as a "backup", as a result retirement in the USA is completely fucked.

[Orange Joe]

If you had followed the conversation you'd see that I don't have a problem with government paying for it. So you are fishing for something.

It's like talking to a 5 year old that can't make up their mind.....

When I said you were defending the bail out you came back with this.

Am I? I am curious for some citations.

Anyways... back to my very first question.

Who made those promises? Why should we have to cover said persons promise? Why haven't we done it with hundred of other broken promises?

Mainly the second and third questions.

[Theodarzna]

It's like talking to a 5 year old that can't make up their mind.....

When I said you were defending the bail out you came back with this.



Anyways... back to my very first question.



Mainly the second and third questions.

Dude, I get it, you came at me hoping to have a debate, and in your mind you probably pictured me holding some position you were really well prepared for. But come on, even another person has pointed out you are coming at this from some strange angle and ascribing statements to me I never made.

You came looking for something to fight about and construed a whole conversation in your head. I've been trying to figure out what your problem is and what your gripe is and all I can deduce is that you are very angry you didn't get the debate you wanted.

[Orange Joe]

Dude, I get it, you came at me hoping to have a debate, and in your mind you probably pictured me holding some position you were really well prepared for. But come on, even another person has pointed out you are coming at this from some strange angle and ascribing statements to me I never made.

You came looking for something to fight about and construed a whole conversation in your head. I've been trying to figure out what your problem is and what your gripe is and all I can deduce is that you are very angry you didn't get the debate you wanted.

It's very simple. I'm asking you why you think the government should foot the bill for private promises. There is no gotcha unless your views are hypocritical to begin with

[Theodarzna]

It's very simple. I'm asking you why you think the government should foot the bill for private promises. There is no gotcha unless your views are hypocritical to begin with

The reason is that I prioritize these peoples difficulties first. They were promised something, they planned their life around that promise and it is just wrong to abandon them now when it is too late for them to do something else or make a new plan. These are people whose working lives are about spent. Asking them to start over is just cruel.

Also, you were hoping for a gotcha and after failing to find what you were fishing for NOW at last you engage in actual discussion.

[Orange Joe]

The reason is that I prioritize these peoples difficulties first. They were promised something, they planned their life around that promise and it is just wrong to abandon them now when it is too late for them to do something else or make a new plan. These are people whose working lives are about spent. Asking them to start over is just cruel.

Also, you were hoping for a gotcha and after failing to find what you were fishing for NOW at last you engage in actual discussion.

There is still no gotcha here lmfao. It's the same exact question I asked you in the start....

You still didn't answer why the government should be the one to honor that promise. Should the government have to honor all promises of private citizens?

Here to make this easier on you.

I personally don't believe the government should be bailing out private corporations. For one they didn't have a say in the promise to begin with. Two it opens the door for easy manipulation. As I already said someone could start a business, make promises they know they can/will never be able to keep and then leave it on the government to cover.

I would be all for raiding the owners of said business of their personal finance to honor said deal but it shouldn't be on the government or tax payers by extension.

[Theodarzna]

There is still no gotcha here lmfao. It's the same exact question I asked you in the start....

You still didn't answer why the government should be the one to honor that promise. Should the government have to honor all promises of private citizens?

Here to make this easier on you.

I personally don't believe the government should be bailing out private corporations. For one they didn't have a say in the promise to begin with. Two it opens the door for easy manipulation. As I already said someone could start a business, make promises they know they can/will never be able to keep and then leave it on the government to cover.

I would be all for raiding the owners of said business of their personal finance to honor said deal but it shouldn't be on the government or tax payers by extension.

There isn't now that your earlier fanfiction was thoroughly shown to be your own personal fanfiction.

I believe the Government should ensure restitution are paid and then the cheat parties dispossessed and imprisoned. Because said retirees can't be made to wait for the legal system to work, assuming it even would work. I say bail them out now, pillage and punish next.

[Breccia]

the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, the federal agency that insures pension plans.

Okay, so here's part I didn't really see before.

PBGC, shown here, claims on their FAQ that their revenue comes from the same place any other insurance comes from (payment by pensions that didn't need a bailout) and also garnishing from companies who shorted the pensions. They claim they don't use taxpayer money.

It looks like that's not true anymore.

For the first time in 45 years of federal pension law, taxpayer dollars will be used to bail out a fund for workers in the private sector. And now that there’s a precedent, it might not be the last.

What happens next could only be a few things.

1) There are only a few companies that turn out to need help, and things get back to normal. Obviously that's the ideal result, but the rest of the quoted text makes that seem less likely.

2) It turns out there's a bunch of pension plans that were underfunded, possibly criminally so. The PBGC uses more taxpayer money to bail them all out. Even spread out over, say, 20 years, $52,000 per person as quoted above eats the tax cut for the rich by double...and that expires in 2025 anyhow, leaving the remaining years unmitigated.

3) Or, if PBGC acts like insurance, it's potentially possible that -- I don't know the laws here -- they could say either "No, you broke the rules so we won't pay" or "No, we don't have the money and can't pay". There's a standard insurance parallel here (i.e. if you wreck your own car on purpose, your car and health insurance has no legal obligation to help you) but I'm not sure how the PBGC works in that regard. There is an ACA parallel here worthy of its own thread....but some other time. Anyhow if this both can and does happen, there are about 30 million people with pension plans. While $628 billion (also quoted above) divided 30 million ways is "only" $20,000 per person, those about to retire obviously have a larger share...but several million people losing even $20,000 they thought they were contractually due is going to be a real issue to whoever just happens to be working the desk when the problem hits home.

I'm not sure #3 is even a legal option. I hope it's not -- it seems like their job is to protect the workers, not the companies. But if companies continue to go bankrupt -- we are talking about coal companies in this thread -- i'm not sure what the PBGC's options are. There's only so much blood you can squeeze from a stone.

The PBGC is an official government office doing their civil work. Hundreds of billions of pensions going flatline all at once would be like FEMA vs. Katrina. Yeah, it makes sense that something so massive would be hard to deal with, but it's still their job even if it's hard. I do believe Trump's making the problem that led to this worse, but even if I didn't, if this all comes crashing down during his tenure, my opinion won't be relevant. What will be relevant will be the opinions of millions of people who thought they would get their pension and won't (so, yeah, older, probably whiter, and in manufacturing, therefore Republican) or, if #2 is the case, hundreds of millions of voters suddenly watching their real wages drop as the PBGC can't "charge for insurance" what the need to meet their required needs.

We have an aging population. We've seen it with SS and Medicare. We should have seen this coming, too.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe the Government should ensure restitution are paid and then the cheat parties dispossessed and imprisoned.

I missed this whilst typing the above reply.

pbgc.gov says this is supposed to be the case. It does not mention jail time that I can see. Problem is, as the OP explained at length, that's no longer possible. Dispossessing isn't paying enough, because if it was, taxpayer money wouldn't be involved and we wouldn't have this thread.

So yeah, what you want to happen is how it has happened, for the last 45 years. They have been pillaging. Unfortunately, there's too much salt in the earth. There's nothing left to take. So...yeah. Taxpayer money.

Sorry. I don't make the rules.