Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Gaidax]

The fact court was only nerfed the first time just before xmas, 1 month before end of the raid, and zaqul wasn't at all, is more questionable. Only nerfs were to Ashvane, Orgo and Ashara herself.

Zaqul no longer even needs any nerfs, simply because by this point every guild that that farmed mythic up to Zaqul can just do the burn strat, which makes this boss MUCH easier than what it was before.

You no longer need to hold P1 and you don't need to realm dance P4 - you can just have your whole raid (aside from delirium assignees ofc) stay in fear realm whole P4 and DPS him down through the DoT.

It became a pretty simple and straightforward boss.

[OBM]

Why's it even matter that guilds are dying?

Because it's sad. You see guilds that have raided for many years just get frustrated with the content and then simply call it quits because wiping on bosses 500+ times is not exactly fun. Mid tier mythic guilds are struggling big time because the bosses are tuned in a way that if one person makes a mistake, it wipes the entire raid. I get it, mythic supposed to be the most challenging PVE content in WoW... But come on. Do you honestly think wiping on a boss 500+ times is fun?

[Wilfire]

Lol, if they made mythic any easier then there'd be nothing to do for most of the tier for like a large percentage of the raiding community.

There's literally nothing stopping you from getting CE other than yourself. The requirements are fairly lax after the first month and you don't need that much of a time commitment.

I'm ok with them nerfing bosses after the fact - and they do, but if you can't clear mythic right now with as easy as EP is, it's because you simply are not playing well.

It's not time, it's not the difficulty curve, it's that you simply are not playing the game well enough to get CE.

Blizzard was even super generous this tier and made the first 3 bosses completely free, and also loaded those 3 bosses with pretty much the best loot in the instance.

I really don't get what more you guys could possibly want. EP has not been "tight" for months.

I've been getting CEs since CEs were a thing and the difficulty right now is pants on head retarded compared to what it was like in MoP and even WoD. There's zero excuse for having encounters so difficult in game that is as old as WoW and with an aging community. But people like you will never admit it because killing "difficult" bosses is the only accomplishment you have in your life.

[Gorsameth]

Why's it even matter that guilds are dying?

because if to many are dying then the raiding scene shrinks to fast and it becomes a snowball effect that effects more and more guilds who run out of recruits to replace people leaving naturally over time until the raiding scene is dead.

[burek]

I think Blizzard is attempting to kill raiding, especially with how difficult the grind is nowadays compared to so many other better things you could be doing in life, regardless of social status.

The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.

[Ange]

I think Blizzard is attempting to kill raiding, especially with how difficult the grind is nowadays compared to so many other better things you could be doing in life, regardless of social status.

The game changed for highend raiding and the population of the community that even bothers with it is at all time low. It made room for alternative content like M+ and thats not really a bad thing.

Not sure where it goes from here, but as soon a sub-community is small enough in this game, things change very fast and not allways in the directions the players would like it.

Its allways best to just take a step back for a sub-community and just enjoy the game as it is. Hardcore anything in this game will get radical changes as soon as its to far away from the casual content.

Raiding only players of the past, were forced to grind more, multiclass more and shadowlands even might add some extra chores to this to break those players even more.

I think the old difficulty gating with attunaments was more healthy for the players. You either did it or you did not, in the current game the community driven attunaments for raiding are ridiculous, just see what the preparation for 8.3 looks like and blizzard does nothing to prevent anything since LEGION. They just let them burn out.

[KaPe]

The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.

And the grind somehow works better? Especially when you're grinding the same shitty World Quests every patch to level up the same item with the same powers, except now its' capped slightly higher. Compared to that, raidlogging was amazing.

[Gorsameth]

The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.

How about optional things people can do outside of raids if they feel like it that don't give performances increases inside of raids (so they don't become mandatory).

There is a VAST gulf between WoD's complete lack of content and Legion/BFA's mandatory content.

But Blizzard is bad at subtlety. Just like they went from tons of 'mandatory' daily quests and grinds in MoP that was much complained about to having absolutely nothing in WoD.

Seems the pendulum can only swing from one extreme to another.

[burek]

How about optional things people can do outside of raids if they feel like it that don't give performances increases inside of raids (so they don't become mandatory).

How about no because you and the rest of this shit community call that 'no content' or 'nothing to do'.

[Gaidax]

How about no because you and the rest of this shit community call that 'no content' or 'nothing to do'.

Ditto.

If we learned anything from WoD is that the world needs to stay relevant too.

In my opinion, as raider, 8 2 was overall great because it had good and meaningful content outside raid too and meaningful is a key word there.

The only 2 messups were this whole benthic socket debacle and PvP essense. Benthic for me was the biggest source of grind, but other than that it was all chill.

After the initial 3 weeks or so amount of stuff you needed to do outside raid dwindled fast to the point I'm purely raidlogging for like 2 months or so now and IMO it's a good pace overall.

It is certainly better than having nothing meangful outside.

[Kralljin]

The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.

Raidlogging was a thing in almost any WoW expansion up until Legion.

Like, all you had to do was the initial grind at the release of a new expansion and that's it.
Wotlk? Get Sons of Hodir Rep, after that, you're done.
Cata? Get your character ready for raiding and you were done, nothing added in Patch 4.x required activity outside of raiding.
MoP? Yeah, Dailies were insane at the start but nothing outside of the Wrathion questchain (which was really small) required activity outside of raiding.

You could even raidlog in Vanilla and TBC once you were settled deep into raiding, if you had the gold to buy consumables off the AH.

I think the old difficulty gating with attunaments was more healthy for the players.

That's not how Blizzard operates nowadays however.
Every sort of content needs to be somehow made accessible towards everybody, so everything needs to have a difficulty switch from braindead to super difficult.

Games have been doing this for a long time, WoW is just catching on.
Thing is, this sort of design comes at the expense of quality in a gameplay driven game, which any Blizzard game is considering their "gameplay first" attitude.

[Tradu]

Desolate host was a free kill after Sisters.
Xavius was a free kill after Cenarius. XD
Varimathras was semi-free kill after Imonar / Kingaroth.
Rastakan felt like a free kill after Conclave (took my guild 12 pulls to down Rastakan first kill).
Yeah, EP doesn't have any "free kills" like that, Orgo was too easy when you could spend 90% of time in p1 and completely ignore p2, then they changed the boss which imo made sense because before the fight was completely broken, akin to 1-phase Ilgynoth, which also got changed.

I still don't think any of those are quite to the same degree as Gorefiend/Socrethar/Iskar/Zakuul. I guess Gorefiend -> Zakuul is similar to a lot of your examples, but the difference between Gorefiend and Socrethar/Iskar was absurd. Sisters, Imonar/Kin'garoth and Conclave weren't "wall" bosses at all, they were just pretty well tuned bosses(except Sisters which was tuned so poorly that you could just stack a bunch of extra healers to compensate for fucking up mechanics).

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We had 75 wipes on Orgozoa (pre-nerfs) and 59 on Queens Court (pre-nerfs), Ashvane was 92 (pre-nerfs). I think it's fair to say that Orgozoa + Queens Court were both easier than Ashvane and Zaqul only required 30 more wipes than Ashvane for us.

The worst tier i've done so far (except for Crucible of Storms) is ToS. It had Mistress Sasszine, Fallen Avatar and KJ, they were all more difficult than anything in EP. Mistress Sasszine after they nerfed Blood DK utility is prob the hardest mid-tier boss ever. Fallen Avatar probably the most difficult 2nd to last boss ever and KJ probably the most difficult last boss ever.

But people forget easily.

Fallen Avatar was "harder" than most end bosses, even in the version that most people ended up killing. Fallen Avatar and KJ are still some of my highest wipe count kills(Argus and both CoS bosses are around the same, although that's not just because of boss difficulty)

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It was already said that ashvane was an outlier (ngl if you had issues with her your guild was already on a bad path), but like people said in this thread, bosses are on wheelchairs already, azshara is a meme, if you can't kill her then its on you and your guild, maybe you got lucky in the past and you got a CE, that doesnt mean you need to get every single one, or you got far into progression in a past tier, who knows, believe it or not, people get worse, so you and your guild didnt step up their game and/or they got considerably worse, so yeah, in the end of the day is a git gud matter, "ashvane was an issue" is just the mediocre player scapegoat, cause we didnt have an ashvane in every tier.

It wasn't, really. The kill rate was similar to other bosses in EP(20-30% dropoff per boss, until Azshara where it is/was 50%), even before the nerfs.

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Zaqul no longer even needs any nerfs, simply because by this point every guild that that farmed mythic up to Zaqul can just do the burn strat, which makes this boss MUCH easier than what it was before.

You no longer need to hold P1 and you don't need to realm dance P4 - you can just have your whole raid (aside from delirium assignees ofc) stay in fear realm whole P4 and DPS him down through the DoT.

It became a pretty simple and straightforward boss.

They should still nerf Dread damage. Sure, with current HP you can probably make do with basically any healer comp, but the difference between DRs and no DRs is still silly.

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Because it's sad. You see guilds that have raided for many years just get frustrated with the content and then simply call it quits because wiping on bosses 500+ times is not exactly fun. Mid tier mythic guilds are struggling big time because the bosses are tuned in a way that if one person makes a mistake, it wipes the entire raid. I get it, mythic supposed to be the most challenging PVE content in WoW... But come on. Do you honestly think wiping on a boss 500+ times is fun?

Sure, but if you're wiping 500+ times on a single boss, there's something very wrong with your group. My old guild had absurdly high wipe counts on basically every boss, and we still never had over 500 on anything other than Uu'nat(Fallen Avatar, KJ, Argus and Cabal were 350-450). At that point you're not wiping to the boss being hard, you're wiping to (some of) your raiders being unable/unwilling to learn from their mistakes.

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The grind is there because the raidlogging model doesn't work, as shown in WoD. Blame the shitty community, it's not some conspiracy.

The raid logging model works great for people who want to raid. Blizzard just can't come up with ways to satisfy non-raiders in ways that don't end up being beneficial/mandatory for raiding too.

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How about no because you and the rest of this shit community call that 'no content' or 'nothing to do'.

What makes you think it's the same people? There isn't a "WoW community", there's tons of different communities with different goals. "No content" and "nothing to do" is not something you're typically going to hear raiders complain about outside of maybe year long last tiers.

[Dizzeeyooo]

How about no because you and the rest of this shit community call that 'no content' or 'nothing to do'.

Why are people only able to use the WoD extreme raidlogging vs Legion & BFA grind maw/islands till you quit expansion models to form their arguments? There are 4 entire (and way more popular) expansions before WoD that managed to find happy places in-between the extremes that we have now - maybe look to them for inspiration, instead of insulting anyone who doesn't love BFA?

[Frozenbro]

Because it's sad. You see guilds that have raided for many years just get frustrated with the content and then simply call it quits because wiping on bosses 500+ times is not exactly fun. Mid tier mythic guilds are struggling big time because the bosses are tuned in a way that if one person makes a mistake, it wipes the entire raid. I get it, mythic supposed to be the most challenging PVE content in WoW... But come on. Do you honestly think wiping on a boss 500+ times is fun?

Then its their problem, why do people blame it on the tier and on blizz when you and your guild got worse and/or can't step up their game? its a shocking reality that no one that complains about difficulty is willing to assume, do people seriously think that if you were a good player on lets say wotlk, that guarantees you will be good on BFA EP? thats utter bs, adapt and get better already or be happy with what you can achieve atm, your call.

[burek]

The raid logging model works great for people who want to raid.

But that's just not true, as shown in WoD. The huge player dropoff there included tons of raiders and tons of mythic guilds that died. We already established a few pages back that more people are actually clearing mythic raids now than in WoD.

[Marrilaife]

Then its their problem, why do people blame it on the tier and on blizz when you and your guild got worse and/or can't step up their game? its a shocking reality that no one that complains about difficulty is willing to assume, do people seriously think that if you were a good player on lets say wotlk, that guarantees you will be good on BFA EP? thats utter bs, adapt and get better already or be happy with what you can achieve atm, your call.

What's BS is expecting people to magically "get better" with every passing year, in the end you can program a game that will "outskill" everyone, but what's the point?

Yes, if you were a good player in wotlk that could do yogg+1/0 and firefighter, and heroic lich king, then yes, you should expect to keep being able to beat the most difficult content in the game in every expansion after. You will face new mechanics and new challenges, fine. But not constant ramp up of complexity.

Pre-ulduar era there were no hardmodes, so the raiding was more around the level of the current heroic, not mythic, and with more mandatory gear checks rather than skill checks.

But what's the idea that gamer's skill and dedication can keep rising into the stratosphere and without causing burn out in the process?

Then at some point you realize you're on a hamster wheel with the carrot hanging in front of you, but the harder you try, the further away is the carrot moved. And that makes people quit. People need not only to feel challenged, they also need to feel rewarded in the end.

[burek]

Why are people only able to use the WoD extreme raidlogging vs Legion & BFA grind maw/islands till you quit expansion models to form their arguments? There are 4 entire (and way more popular) expansions before WoD that managed to find happy places in-between the extremes that we have now - maybe look to them for inspiration, instead of insulting anyone who doesn't love BFA?

There was never a happy place in WoW. Every expansion's features and design are a direct result of the shitty community being unhappy with the previous one.

[Tradu]

There was never a happy place in WoW. Every expansion's features and design are a direct result of the shitty community being unhappy with the previous one.

Stupid community giving feedback on things they're unhappy about. Should just deal with whatever Blizzard decides and be quiet. Also that's clearly not true considering BfA and Legion are basically the same expansion, so they didn't fix features/design going from Legion to BfA.

[Jastall]

Why are people only able to use the WoD extreme raidlogging vs Legion & BFA grind maw/islands till you quit expansion models to form their arguments? There are 4 entire (and way more popular) expansions before WoD that managed to find happy places in-between the extremes that we have now - maybe look to them for inspiration, instead of insulting anyone who doesn't love BFA?

It's not like people didn't bitch about stuff like consumable farming in Classic, attunements in BC, or dailygate in Mists either. And as I recall the original no content expansion was Cata where the max-level stuff was pretty much exclusively instanced apart from the Molten Front ans the crucible of suffering that was Tol Barad.

Guess that leaves Wrath as a good model, but even that that expansion had fuck-all of relevant world content as soon as you hit Heroic dungeons, apart from one daily hub with half the quests being shitty jousting that was over in two months max. Hell you could even chain run dungeons to increase your reputations to Exalted.

Blizzard should dial back the out of raid stuff a bit, that's true, but it seems Shadowlands already does that by removing AP and making the replacement Anima much less grind intensive and weekly capped in terms of gameplay benefits. Why they did not do that for 8.3 as well if they recognize the problem is beyond me, but there you go.

[burek]

Stupid community giving feedback on things they're unhappy about. Should just deal with whatever Blizzard decides and be quiet. Also that's clearly not true considering BfA and Legion are basically the same expansion, so they didn't fix features/design going from Legion to BfA.

If Blizzard was designing what they wanted instead of listening what the shitty community whines about, the game would be much better. And they did change the most complained about parts of Legion - removed legendaries, toned down the AP grind and titanforging, etc.