Sylvanas is suffocating Alleria progress

[Outer Heaven]

You literally just said that anyone who uses void powers ends up going mad, and I gave multiple examples of people who have been using void magic for years and have retained their sanity. Any kind of magic is dangerous and if wielded badly will do more harm than good.

No, you haven't. Anduin using Shadow Word Death, or whatever it was, is not an instance of someone using void magic. That was a skill priests used long before the shadow spec was revamped to be related to void magic and include things like insanity as a mechanic.

Void users are driven insane. We see that all the time. And if it hasn't happened to a particular character yet, that isn't proof that void magic is perfectly safe to use. Of course they're not gonna show literally every character using that type of magic being driven insane. How would that be possible from a storytelling perspective? That doesn't change the trend is clearly there. Stop being so dense. Gonna ignore you now, cause you are clearly being dense on purpose.

[Combatbutler]

Every Energy is indeed dectructive if left unchecked. That is what I said. That is why they are hypocrites judging others when they did the same thing.

The void is still fundamentally worse than any other power source, other cosmic powers usually don't try to convert the users into a mass murdering maniacs the entire time.

Lorthemar and Romnath are responsible for experimenting with Fel Energy that pretty much set up a chain of events that led to the Sunwell Plateau. They are also completely responsible for the birth of Muru the Void God who would have destroyed Azeroth if left unchecked. Their duty was to find a way to sate their peoples thirst and they knew fully well how corruptive Fel Energy was. Instead of finding another way as all of the surviving high elves they resorted to the easy solution just because Kaelthas said it like they don't have enough IQ to research alternative ways.

Fel magic was not the commodity used to sate the magical addiction of their people, the arcane sanctums were, fel magic was used to rebuild. By the way there is no high elf way, those guys failed on every front, they found no cure, nor did they get rid of their addiction, all they managed was hiding behind the humans.

Let's just say that they were part of the Alliance and were under attack as a coalition by an alien invading force that had eradication of all life as their goal. They had all the right not to help but then who would protect them from the Orcish Horde if the human kingdoms fell? It would have been the same result as what happened with the Scourge. The problem here is that they preferred to stay and help a living corpse end all life on Azeroth instead of joining Anduin or Alleria. That is why they are hypocrites. Alleria and Anduin were the supposed danger here and not their own actions so far

With the exception that they did not follow the corpse with the goal of eradicating all life, that line is such utter bullshit, they fought a war that is it. But Alleria did almost screw over the entire kingdom, while she was there.

[Varodoc]

No, you haven't. Anduin using Shadow Word Death, or whatever it was, is not an instance of someone using void magic. That was a skill priests used long before the shadow spec was revamped to be related to void magic and include things like insanity as a mechanic.

Void users are driven insane. We see that all the time. And if it hasn't happened to a particular character yet, that isn't proof that void magic is perfectly safe to use. Of course they're not gonna show literally every character using that type of magic being driven insane. How would that be possible from a storytelling perspective? That doesn't change the trend is clearly there. Stop being so dense. Gonna ignore you now, cause you are clearly being dense on purpose.

He mind-controlled a dwarf, which is literally what a lot of Old God minions do, because Shadow = Void. His official artwork even shows him wielding shadow magic.

Also, gameplay mechanic =/= lore. Shadow priest were always meant to use the Void, Blizzard just hadn't fleshed-out that concept before Legion.

Void users are usually driven insane if they are not careful, but if they are then they can avoid succumbing to the whispers. Besides I never even said it is perfectly safe to use, even a knife is not perfectly safe to use. And by the way, abusing any cosmic force without any attention or wisdom will lead to madness, not just using the void. Case in point, the Scarlet Crusade and the Lightbound for the Light.

Of course they're not gonna show literally every character using that type of magic being driven insane.

I don't know, you tell me. You're the one who claimed that every void user ends up going insane.

[Darth-Piekus]

That is completely false. The Fel is as corruptive and destructive as the Void. You can't just claim what you like or else you cancel the entire Burning Legion, the Orcish Curse and the whole nature of the Fel.

The high elves managed to find a way to sustain themselves in human lands without having to kill creatures just to suck their mana. As for the Fel indeed it was used for their structures but it doesn't change the fact that their set a chain of events that led to the birth of a Void God and the summoning of Kiljaeden through the Sunwell.

They don't have any right to accuse Alleria that she almost jeopardized a kingdom when they almost did the same to the whole world 4 times already.

And yes first they followed an orc with daddy issues and then a corpse knowing full well what would happen. They don't get to play the victim card and they should thank God Velen restored their Sunwell and that their faction is not yet disbanded.

Also according to the new lore the Shadow priest is using Void Magic but doesn't succumb to Madness.

[Combatbutler]

That is completely false. The Fel is as corruptive and destructive as the Void. You can't just claim what you like or else you cancel the entire Burning Legion, the Orcish Curse and the whole nature of the Fel.

Fel hasn't a conscience on its own, that drives one insane with whispers, on top of its already corruptive nature. The void is so corruptive it has a cosmological success rate rate of 99.999999%. Those who dabble in fel fall because of their own misgivings, not because the power itself is sentient. Those who dabble in the void hear thousands of voices at the same time, non stop

https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/1004415187955298309

The high elves managed to find a way to sustain themselves in human lands without having to kill creatures just to suck their mana.

They did not, the vast majority languished in their addiction, others became thieves stealing artifacts, very few overcame their addiction and those who dwelt in places of rich magical energy like dalaran. The high elves solved absolutely nothing.

As for the Fel indeed it was used for their structures but it doesn't change the fact that their set a chain of events that led to the birth of a Void God and the summoning of Kiljaeden through the Sunwell.

And? Do you want me to list the shit that was caused because humans thought to dabble with powers beyond their comprehension, or because of their arrogance? You know the entire conflicts that followed could have been avoided, if Aegwynn hadn't been such an arrogant bitch.

Yes shit went down, because their prince was too mentally weak to deal with the shit life dished out. That is what caused this mess, Keal'thas weakness, not the fel itself, it doesn't have a conscience, it doesn't manipulate, it just give you an incredible powertrip and corrupts.

They don't have any right to accuse Alleria that she almost jeopardized a kingdom when they almost did the same to the whole world 4 times already.

Alleria knew void and light do not mix, knew that touching anything light related causes a negative reactions, she can't even touch her man without pain, was aware that the sunwell was now partly light infused, was told to stop and still she touched the damn thing, she is a shining example of her family, which is compromised of utter retards, each and every last windrunner doesn't have more than a single braincell.

And yes first they followed an orc with daddy issues and then a corpse knowing full well what would happen. They don't get to play the victim card and they should thank God Velen restored their Sunwell and that their faction is not yet disbanded.

That doesn't mean they wanted to wipe out all life as you originally claimed and velen has nothing to do with the original point, waging war is a far cry from outright eradication of all life.

Also according to the new lore the Shadow priest is using Void Magic but doesn't succumb to Madness.

Is that why Alleria is labeled as the first mortal to not succumb to the madness of the void? That is official lore, every other mortal in the entire cosmos did and only she and her merry band of followers are in control if you want to call it that, because Alleria herself knows her days are numbered and that she will fall to the voids influence eventually.

Alleria Windrunner is the first mortal to succeed at defying the shadow's whispers.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ba...s/allied-races

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Btw, it's so sad when they keep saying that first mortal thing. Just thinking in that same patch they made Void purged krokul, who could keep their sanity and made for a cool concept... yet they were quickly forgotten and never ever was any sort of explanation given about how did they get there.

[Darth-Piekus]

And yet here we are finding people resisting the whispers of the Void using it to do good just like people who use the Fel to do good. Both energies are equally bad and corruptive and change you. The fact that one talks and one is not doesn't make it worse. As I said before you can't cancel the entire Burning Legion and their mission to Fel or kill everyone.

Don't change the subject. Everyone has done terrible shit but we are comparing the hypocrisy of the Blood Elves here against Alleria when they have endangered their own Sunwell many times. In terms of Arrogance the Blood Elves are by far the worst. Their arrogance costed them their almost extinction from the Scourge and could cost the world if the heroes weren't there.

They knew full well what Sylvannas or Garrosh intended to do but didn't do shit to stop it. They acted only when their people were in danger from said war chiefs.They preferred to stay with a true hordalist and an enemy of Life instead of a person who wanted to solve the faction differences. It's too bad that decision didn't bite them in the ass.

Most of the high elves are living in human cities and they have solved their problem by getting mana from there. Sure they haven't found a cure for the addiction but neither did the Blood Elves. I just mention that there are other ways to get mana instead of bloodsucking creatures dry. If it wasn't for Velen purifying the Sunwell they would have serious problems.

Alleria was indeed the first mortal to resist the Void in those 1000 years that were missing with Tyralyon but it is also established lore that Shadow priests are using the Void for good and resisting it very well just like there are Warlocks and Demon Hunters who resisted the Fel and use it for good.

I'm not saying they don't have the right to protect their Sunwell. I'm just saying that they should not be hypocrites and act like Alleria was the reason of all their problems.

[ravenmoon]

No, you haven't. Anduin using Shadow Word Death, or whatever it was, is not an instance of someone using void magic. That was a skill priests used long before the shadow spec was revamped to be related to void magic and include things like insanity as a mechanic.

Void users are driven insane. We see that all the time. And if it hasn't happened to a particular character yet, that isn't proof that void magic is perfectly safe to use. Of course they're not gonna show literally every character using that type of magic being driven insane. How would that be possible from a storytelling perspective? That doesn't change the trend is clearly there. Stop being so dense. Gonna ignore you now, cause you are clearly being dense on purpose.

I thought the lore is challenging that assumption. It usually creates assumptions it then later proves wrong, and I think this an intentional and effective story device

It reflects howwe learn, both as indicdiuals and as a race, there are things we observe but don't fuolly understand, when we gain more understanding, it challenges some of our previous held assumptions that have to change.

Yes many void users go mad, but shadow priests and a few others do not, even if they hear whispers. The order of Elune has a secret WotA tirlogy hinted at when it talked aobut the Pain mistresses of the order which were a fully fledged part of the order and using shadow/void magic, then they show tyrandee invoking the dark side of Elune, we also see in the Font of Elune, the Full moon and darkside of the moon and how their powers change - yet they are not maddened.

Just because someone isn't madened or corrupted doesn't mean that the power isn't dangerous, nor the fact that many people get corrupted doesn't mean it can't be mastered. Some would require more discipline, more knowledge or more control than others, some races would have a natural aptitude to handle things maybe most can. In the case of Fel and Void, types of magic the elves once again prove the most capable. From my experience, the strength of the elves with magic makes them suitable. When you look at the night elves (the original elves), made from the arcane, very good with nature magics, add light, fel, void - they just do magic very well. If sylvanas and the San'layn are anything to go by, they also do death magic quite well. The only one they don't seem to have dominance I his elemental magic, but then they wield the elemnts via the arcane, and not through medium being like the elements, it perfectly explains where they do not number amongst the shaman, yet their arcane users wield fire, water (frost), air, and can move the earth too - they just use the arcane to do it, not an elemental spirit.

[Zora-Prime]

She's Just bootleg Sylvanas anyways.

[ravenmoon]

And yet here we are finding people resisting the whispers of the Void using it to do good just like people who use the Fel to do good. Both energies are equally bad and corruptive and change you. The fact that one talks and one is not doesn't make it worse. As I said before you can't cancel the entire Burning Legion and their mission to Fel or kill everyone.

Don't change the subject. Everyone has done terrible shit but we are comparing the hypocrisy of the Blood Elves here against Alleria when they have endangered their own Sunwell many times. In terms of Arrogance the Blood Elves are by far the worst. Their arrogance costed them their almost extinction from the Scourge and could cost the world if the heroes weren't there.

They knew full well what Sylvannas or Garrosh intended to do but didn't do shit to stop it. They acted only when their people were in danger from said war chiefs.They preferred to stay with a true hordalist and an enemy of Life instead of a person who wanted to solve the faction differences. It's too bad that decision didn't bite them in the ass.

And this is why the lore is criticised, especially by alliance players, we don't see thehorde paying for many of these crimes like it should. Then you make that point about the blood elves, and it's true.. however the blood elves reactions is what we should use to judge the morality of the race, not on whether it has more paladins or use to be good.

Face it, they are still very much acting in self interest, and still display the sort of hypocrisy that comes with suffocating arrogance. But this is as it should be. Individuals prove to us not all blood elves are like that, however there is a disparity in the portrayal of the race, one the one hand we see most of them individuality being of the level of goodness that is much closer to their former high elven morality, yet collectively they don't behave like that. Blizzard isn't showing us enough selfish evil blood elves. Though that Lorash (was that his name?) fellow in War of Thorns was them doing exactly that.. question is do players think he is the norm or rather the exception amongst the blood elves? We certainly have had a lot of blood elf characters, and maybe overall we have seen a lot more questionable than we have good.

But as wow has told so very little over a long period of time, we must actually think about these things first. Just because they show liadrin a lot doesn't mean blood elves are now all of a sudden good guys, just because Lor'themar and liadrin behave well.

[Varodoc]

She's Just bootleg Sylvanas anyways.

That's pretty funny, considering how Alleria was created in WC2 while Sylvanas in WC3, so technically it's the opposite, but sure, whatever helps you sleep at night champ.

[Zora-Prime]

That's pretty funny, considering how Alleria was created in WC2 while Sylvanas in WC3, so technically it's the opposite, but sure, whatever helps you sleep at night champ.

The story they're giving her now is nothing but replacing the curse of undeath with curse of the void and is completely unrelated to anything that happened in WC2.

But hey, whatever makes you sleep at night amigo.

[Varodoc]

The story they're giving her now is nothing but replacing the curse of undeath with curse of the void and is completely unrelated to anything that happened in WC2.

But hey, whatever makes you sleep at night amigo.

Actually it is related to what happened in WC2, since she stumbles upon the Void after being left stranded in the Nether as a result of th events of WC2: Beyond the Dark Portal. She also isn't facing her Void condition like Sylvanas faced Undeath. First of all she doesn't see herself as a monster and she actually believes she is doing the right thing trying to use the Void to protect the world, she also isn't driven solely by vengeance, and obviously she is not a mentally insane warmonger like her genocidal sister.

But whatever you say champ.

[Zora-Prime]

Actually it is related to what happened in WC2, since she stumbles upon the Void after being left stranded in the Nether as a result of th events of WC2: Beyond the Dark Portal. She also isn't facing her Void condition like Sylvanas faced Undeath. First of all she doesn't see herself as a monster and she actually believes she is doing the right thing trying to use the Void to protect the world, she also isn't driven solely by vengeance, and obviously she is a mentally insane warmonger like her genocidal sister.

But whatever you say champ.

Yet

/10char

[Varodoc]

Yet

/10char

That in itself is a difference, since Sylvanas was mentally unstable already back in WC3 and Classic.

[Zora-Prime]

That in itself is a difference, since Sylvanas was mentally unstable already back in WC3 and Classic.

I wouldn't say unstable. Maybe inconsistent and idiotic at times tho.
However, you can see in the Windrunners comic that Alleria could go nuts whenever blizzard needs a new villian.

[Darth-Piekus]

Anyone could go nuts if Blizzard wanted. However as Tenebra said Sylvannas was already unstable due to the nature of the banshee. Alleria was not unstable. Maybe she will become in the future but that's a big maybe.

[Zora-Prime]

Anyone could go nuts if Blizzard wanted. However as Tenebra said Sylvannas was already unstable due to the nature of the banshee. Alleria was not unstable. Maybe she will become in the future but that's a big maybe.

I can't recall any signs of instability regarding Sylvanas. Excluding thirst for vengeance (which Alleria also showcased in WC2 against the Orcs).
Other than a few tantrums here and there and an attempted(?) suicide, Sylvanas was pretty stable...ish...

However, this...


This is not stable...

[EnacheV]

sorry, elves females are many, disposable

theres only 1 undead elf chick

[Varodoc]

I can't recall any signs of instability regarding Sylvanas. Excluding thirst for vengeance (which Alleria also showcased in WC2 against the Orcs).
Other than a few tantrums here and there and an attempted(?) suicide, Sylvanas was pretty stable...ish...

However, this...


This is not stable...

Yeah, she just committed revolting experiments on the living and gleefully watched some dude melt with the blight. Totally not an unstable psycho.

Also yes, that is a stable behaviour, because even if the Void is whispering to her she is keeping the whispers at bay.