Poll: Rate the movie STAR WARS™: The Rise of Skywalker™

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  1. #5221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Again there are tiers of canon and that wasn't in the first two probably not the first 3. The movies always were the primary then the official stuff like Shadows of the Empire.
    THERE ARE NO TIERS OF CANON IN DISNEY STAR WARS.

    The Tiers were in what is now legends.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  2. #5222
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    THERE ARE NO TIERS OF CANON IN DISNEY STAR WARS.

    The Tiers were in what is now legends.
    He is claiming lightspeed kamikaze was in the EU so the tiers do need to be talked about. Disney Wars can't be used to justify Disney Wars.

  3. #5223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    He is claiming lightspeed kamikaze was in the EU so the tiers do need to be talked about. Disney Wars can't be used to justify Disney Wars.
    Hera destroyed a station over Lothal in Rebels jumping to lightspeed. It happened elsewhere in Disney Canon too.

    Hera jumped through a docking bay area of the ship. Note: This episode also aired prior to TLJ, just like Force Healing appeared prior to RoS.

    Also, the tiers don't really apply anymore in Legends as nothing new has been added.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-12-29 at 06:43 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #5224
    The movie isn't perfect but it isn't as bad as the hater are trying to push it as. I would probably say its the best of the sequel trilogy. I mean, imo, TFA was just a copy/reboot of ANH and then TLJ was just a couple hour space chase and a few conversations tacked onto the end of TFA. If they had planned the trilogy better and stuck to those guns from start to finish it probably would of ended up decently ok. Instead we got JJ starting it, Johnson subverting all the expectations from that start, and then JJ just going back to his original concepts the best he could and ignoring or trolling as much of TLJ as he could in the finale. I didn't have a problem with the actors or acting in this trilogy. The special effects were pretty damn good. Sounds and production were all pretty top tier. But the story was the weak point. Which is sad because this trilogy had so much it could have drawn from to create a masterpiece.

  5. #5225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That isn't evidence.
    Episode I, the one time it could be use, Obi-wan (as a Padawan) on Qui-gon.
    Episode II, two times it could have been used, Anakin (as a Padawan) and Yoda after Dooku fight.
    Episode III, three times it could have been used Anakin after Dooku fight on Obi-wan, Obi-wan after Anakin fight and Padme's death.

    Yoda was clear in his stance ... death is a part of life. Therefor, he is unlikely to use it if he knew it so Episode II Dooku fight can be counted out.
    Episode I and Shmi's Death in Episode II both involved Padawans and thus weren't likely aware of the technique.
    Episode III we know Anakin wasn't aware and Obi-wan isn't going to heal Anakin in that case.

    Again, the Jedi are very anti-attachment. Healing is very pro-attachment.

    No one is "jumping through logical hoops" ... it is all explainable with lore that is known. I am sorry people don't just do what you do and throw their hands up going "That's just isn't possible" and decide not to think further.
    The much more likely explanation is that it’s a lost technic that was in the old Jedi books.

    Though out all of the prequels and the clone wars cartoon they try and keep people alive saying they wouldn’t heal because they want to let people die makes no sense.

  6. #5226
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Hera destroyed a station over Lothal in Rebels jumping to lightspeed. It happened elsewhere in Disney Canon too.

    Hera jumped through a docking bay area of the ship. Note: This episode also aired prior to TLJ, just like Force Healing appeared prior to RoS.

    Also, the tiers don't really apply anymore in Legends as nothing new has been added.
    Yeah that's Disney Wars as I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    The movie isn't perfect but it isn't as bad as the hater are trying to push it as. I would probably say its the best of the sequel trilogy. I mean, imo, TFA was just a copy/reboot of ANH and then TLJ was just a couple hour space chase and a few conversations tacked onto the end of TFA. If they had planned the trilogy better and stuck to those guns from start to finish it probably would of ended up decently ok. Instead we got JJ starting it, Johnson subverting all the expectations from that start, and then JJ just going back to his original concepts the best he could and ignoring or trolling as much of TLJ as he could in the finale. I didn't have a problem with the actors or acting in this trilogy. The special effects were pretty damn good. Sounds and production were all pretty top tier. But the story was the weak point. Which is sad because this trilogy had so much it could have drawn from to create a masterpiece.
    I would agree it's the best of the sequel trilogy but the thing is that still puts it behind all 3 of the originals and Revenge. Arguable even TPM since TPM at least had the Duel of Fates which was amazing. The only movies it's solidly better than for sure are AoTC TLJ and TFA. That's not a good place for the final movie of the Skywalker Saga to fall.

  7. #5227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The much more likely explanation is that it’s a lost technic that was in the old Jedi books.

    Though out all of the prequels and the clone wars cartoon they try and keep people alive saying they wouldn’t heal because they want to let people die makes no sense.
    More like they don't want to use the Force in that way. Again, lorewise, the Jedi use the Force for Knowledge and Defense. Healing someone is neither of those things. In addition to the Jedi being very anti-attachment and healing being a very pro-attachment thing. A lost technique does make some sense, yes ... but again, it isn't the only way too explain things.

    And the way it is shown in canon, healing another puts stress/takes life energy away from the user making it a very dangerous technique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yeah that's Disney Wars as I said.
    So your argument it is that you don't care if it can be explained ... it will never make sense to you.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  8. #5228
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Hera destroyed a station over Lothal in Rebels jumping to lightspeed. It happened elsewhere in Disney Canon too.

    Hera jumped through a docking bay area of the ship. Note: This episode also aired prior to TLJ, just like Force Healing appeared prior to RoS.

    Also, the tiers don't really apply anymore in Legends as nothing new has been added.
    Which episode was this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    More like they don't want to use the Force in that way. Again, lorewise, the Jedi use the Force for Knowledge and Defense. Healing someone is neither of those things. In addition to the Jedi being very anti-attachment and healing being a very pro-attachment thing. A lost technique does make some sense, yes ... but again, it isn't the only way too explain things.

    And the way it is shown in canon, healing another puts stress/takes life energy away from the user making it a very dangerous technique.

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    So your argument it is that you don't care if it can be explained ... it will never make sense to you.
    Isn't it more likely that they had just forgotten how to? New Force powers being discovered/rediscovered is okay, these things happen.

  9. #5229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yoda figured out how to ascend into the Force upon death, something that he taught to Qui-gonn, and by extension from there, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke, and Ben Solo. It wasn't commonly known by all Jedi.
    Actually, it was Qui-gonn who taught Yoda about ghosting, as a ghost. There's an episode about that in Clone Wars.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  10. #5230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Which episode was this?

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    Isn't it more likely that they had just forgotten how to? New Force powers being discovered/rediscovered is okay, these things happen.
    I was mistaken, she doesn't destroy the station, but does cause damage to what was within the docking bay area.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG4k-QhJfzs

    As for the likeliness of an technique being forgotten, that depends on your point of view on the facts. We know the council kept certain information secret. There was a restricted section to the archives and the archives were not available remotely. So, we can't really calculate the odds of one explanation over another.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-12-29 at 07:54 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #5231
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    New Force powers being discovered/rediscovered is okay, these things happen.
    Its really not OK because you just *know* that terrible terrible writers will take one look at that and use it as a deus ex machina to resolve bad plots by just creating some stupid force power out of nowhere to solve it.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  12. #5232
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I was mistaken, she doesn't destroy the station, but does cause damage to what was within the docking bay area.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG4k-QhJfzs

    As for the likeliness of an technique being forgotten, that depends on your point of view on the facts. We know the council kept certain information secret. There was a restricted section to the archives and the archives were not available remotely. So, we can't really calculate the odds of one explanation over another.
    Okay, that makes sense - I was pretty sure the Holdo manuever was the first time we've seen something quite like it done in at least the new canon, if not all of its history. This gives a pretty decent rundown on the Holdo manuever: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...t-used-earlier

    TL;DR Given the desperate situation that they were in, which was already bad from the start and was only getting worse by the minute, it's unlikely that anyone ever considered this move earlier in the events of the film. In fact, I was unable to find any information that indicates that anyone had considered trying this move prior to the moment that Holdo executes it, and that she only came up with it on the fly when it became clear that their escape plan had been compromised; and even if anyone did consider it prior to that point, it simply wasn't an option until any vessel that would have been used for this purpose had at least been evacuated (and even then, it still would have needed enough fuel to execute a hyperspace jump, which the Ninka and Anodyne clearly lacked compared to the Raddus). And ultimately, thanks to its advanced experimental deflector shields, the Raddus was the only ship in the Resistance fleet that could have been used to execute this move and achieve the results that we witnessed on film.

    Executing this move earlier simply wasn't an option.
    As to the forgotten powers, fair enough, I just don't buy the healing = attachment theory of why they wouldn't use it. Healing the wounded is a pretty normal thing to do during a war and I don't buy that the Jedi were eschewing it out of attachment concerns. Essence transfer does run very close to the dark side though, so it's easy to imagine that it was forbidden out of concern for how easily it could be twisted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its really not OK because you just *know* that terrible terrible writers will take one look at that and use it as a deus ex machina to resolve bad plots by just creating some stupid force power out of nowhere to solve it.
    See: the legends universe.

  13. #5233
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    The fact that you admitted it made you cringe isn't selling me on this being a good choice or a satisfactory ending for him.

    Also, she should have kept her name or just abandoned having a last name to drive home that she either
    1. No longer fears who she is
    Or
    2. No longer needs the validation of having a family name

    Star wars: The rise of missed opportunities
    Just said this same thing to a friend... Her taking the skywalker name means its not the end of the skywalker saga.... had she said "just Rey" it would have ended the saga and allower her to forge her own destiny, hopefully as the founder of a gray jedi order....
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  14. #5234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    As to the forgotten powers, fair enough, I just don't buy the healing = attachment theory of why they wouldn't use it. Healing the wounded is a pretty normal thing to do during a war and I don't buy that the Jedi were eschewing it out of attachment concerns. Essence transfer does run very close to the dark side though, so it's easy to imagine that it was forbidden out of concern for how easily it could be twisted.
    Well, in Legends, Jedi did heal during the clone wars, but there were conditions to it. You had to be trained as a Jedi healer, you just didn't do it. (ignoring Video game mechanics here).

    Also, given in canon, one gives of themselves to heal the other ... healing one from death, would merely kill you instead. And healing someone close to death, likely results in your death or you coming close to death.

    There are explanations to why we didn't see it. Which it is, we either won't know or will have to wait until it is explained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its really not OK because you just *know* that terrible terrible writers will take one look at that and use it as a deus ex machina to resolve bad plots by just creating some stupid force power out of nowhere to solve it.
    Which happened often in the supposed "superior" Expanded Universe that Disney threw out.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #5235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    More like they don't want to use the Force in that way. Again, lorewise, the Jedi use the Force for Knowledge and Defense. Healing someone is neither of those things. In addition to the Jedi being very anti-attachment and healing being a very pro-attachment thing. A lost technique does make some sense, yes ... but again, it isn't the only way too explain things.

    And the way it is shown in canon, healing another puts stress/takes life energy away from the user making it a very dangerous technique.

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    So your argument it is that you don't care if it can be explained ... it will never make sense to you.
    While the Jedi might say they only use the force in defense it’s really not true from what we see in the prequels. Outside of yoda no one really follows what the Jedi should do I’d they could heal they would be using it left and right as they act in attachment all the time rather it be defending people they need or getting angry at the deaths of freinds

  16. #5236
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Again there are tiers of canon and that wasn't in the first two probably not the first 3. The movies always were the primary then the official stuff like Shadows of the Empire.
    There were no "tiers". That's a fanbase conceit. There was just canon (the films and shows Lucas was involved in creating) and everything else.

    Plus, it's not even relevant. If it existed in the EU, it predates the canon existence in the films, and thus it wasn't the film in question that introduced that to the universe. Legends material is always up for being included/expanded/reworked in the canon, moving forward. Pulling from that old Legends material is sticking to Star Wars lore and content, rather than creating something previously unheard-of that could break lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Actually, it was Qui-gonn who taught Yoda about ghosting, as a ghost. There's an episode about that in Clone Wars.
    Fair enough; I'm just getting through Clone Wars now, with Disney+. It's a slog, but I'm gonna get through it. Haven't gotten to that particular episode yet, so I misremembered, though I knew Yoda and Qui-gonn were the first two to re-learn the ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its really not OK because you just *know* that terrible terrible writers will take one look at that and use it as a deus ex machina to resolve bad plots by just creating some stupid force power out of nowhere to solve it.
    Like the Jedi Mind Trick, to get past stormtroopers looking for certain droids?
    Like a Force Pull, so Luke could get his lightsaber and kill the Wampa?

    This is how the Force has always been used in Star Wars. They added new abilities fairly regularly, as the narrative needed some new capacity.


  17. #5237
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its really not OK because you just *know* that terrible terrible writers will take one look at that and use it as a deus ex machina to resolve bad plots by just creating some stupid force power out of nowhere to solve it.
    That's been one of the largest issues with RoS: it's not that some new, crazy Force powers come into play, it's all about how said powers are introduced and used from a narrative perspective.

    The only new Force power that had any sort of buildup (as I've mentioned before) was the transfer of matter via Force Skype calls, and what makes it more acceptable and believable (not perfect or completely logical) is that the transfers started small, accidental, and not really important to the plot... plus, there was a lot of buildup which lead to the power being used in a proactive manner. Force healing just comes out of nowhere with no buildup, it's only used to resolve plot issues from the start, and despite a throw-away line being given by the Emperor as to why Rey has the power, Kylo ends up using the same power counter to the entire reasoning provided. While I can craft some sort of narrative as to how Kylo can use it (based upon the narrative, only "logical" reason is that healing Kylo passed on some semblance of the power to him, or he just transferred that lump of Force back to Rey), they're all still full of holes, and the movie doesn't even bother addressing this.

    When it comes to fantasy-based stories, especially with something like Force powers, the movies need to establish a set of rules and stick with it. If you can't stick with a set of rules, you run into situations where people with said powers will just always solve issues in boring ways as there is no legitimate conflict or adversity to overcome in most cases. This is how you get deus ex machina, Mary Sues, pick your trope where powers/objects/characters just come out of nowhere and somehow resolve the issues at hand. Not saying you can't change the rules, but you need to make acceptable explanations as to why the rules are changing. I'm seeing people trying to reason why certain things, such as Force healing or the Holdo maneuver actually make sense within the movies... great, why didn't the movies do this to an acceptable level? I'll circle around to my first statement: I don't have an issues with the existence of new, crazy Force powers being in the movies (or the Holdo maneuver, etc), but their introduction from a narrative standpoint was terrible to the point that it's extremely distracting for many people watching these movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like the Jedi Mind Trick, to get past stormtroopers looking for certain droids?
    Like a Force Pull, so Luke could get his lightsaber and kill the Wampa?

    This is how the Force has always been used in Star Wars. They added new abilities fairly regularly, as the narrative needed some new capacity.
    The big difference between those and what's occurring in RoS is that these powers are not only relatively small in scale and impact, but also there are rules and/or explanations to these powers (plus they're introduced basically in the first movie, the Wampa just at the start of the second), and they don't just show up to resolve most problems. The mind trick was explicitly stated that it only works on weak-minded people, and it's use is pretty moderate and innately limited by this rules... aka, it can't be used to solve most problems where you need to converse/convince people of things. Force pull actually becomes more of a narrative point when Luke trains with Yoda, as while Luke struggles to use it with the Wampa, it's used to show Luke's faults and misconceptions about the Force... plus, it starts small and eventually is used against him to show how overwhelming of a force that Vader is during their battle at the end of TESB.

    I think another issue is that a bigger different between the OT's use/introduction of Force powers is that the powers are almost always used as a last-ditch effort, if at all. If we take the trench run at the end of ANH, we don't just jump to Luke uses his sense via the Force to land the shot at the start. Instead, we see the Rebels actually making passes, using the targeting computer, and actually failing to hit the mark. The use of the Force is a last resort, and the power had already been introduced on a smaller scale where Luke was forced to use only the Force to guide his motions during training, but the tension is still there in the trench run because the power had only been used on a small scale and it's implied that it's still not a guarantee success if he's not using said power to solve problems all the time. Out of all the Force usage with a direct relation to the plot, this probably the largest application in the OT.

    If you look at the Force healing in RoS, it was the first solution to a scenario that likely had many. There's really not much stated in terms of limitations or rules, just that she's transferring her Force power into the creature (I'll let the established rules of Force bend on this one, although people are suddenly dropping dead from using the Force in this new trilogy). Unlike what we typically see in the OT, there doesn't seem to be any learning curve for powers and they're always used to solve major plot points. The powers aren't used to make some narrative or storytelling message/moral, either. I could shift some scenes dialogue around to where the Force healing could be used to have Rey learn that even though she has this awesome power, using it is bad or makes her lean Dark side or makes her too reliant on her Force powers to solve problems. Worst part is that Luke in TLJ could've easily been used as a setup to the morale tale of Rey becoming too reliant on Force power or the power usage causing her to turn, it was a missed opportunity to do something interesting.

    Does the OT have flaws? Certainly, but this new trilogy looks at those OT flaws and says, "Hold my beer..."
    Last edited by exochaft; 2019-12-29 at 08:55 PM.
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    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #5238
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I just caught up with the RLM Half in the Bag review. It's interesting to me that 2 of the 3 of them (Mike included, Mr. Plinkett himself), like TLJ better than this movie, in retrospect. That seems to get lost in the shuffle of people quoting Mike at the end with his "low IQ" comment about RoS.
    Preferring the least worse of two bads doesn't make it good. It was a good film it was NOT a good SW film and was totally disjointed from TFA, causing JJ to concoct a nonsensical RoS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That isn't evidence.
    Episode I, the one time it could be use, Obi-wan (as a Padawan) on Qui-gon.
    Episode II, two times it could have been used, Anakin (as a Padawan) and Yoda after Dooku fight.
    Episode III, three times it could have been used Anakin after Dooku fight on Obi-wan, Obi-wan after Anakin fight and Padme's death.

    Yoda was clear in his stance ... death is a part of life. Therefor, he is unlikely to use it if he knew it so Episode II Dooku fight can be counted out.
    Episode I and Shmi's Death in Episode II both involved Padawans and thus weren't likely aware of the technique.
    Episode III we know Anakin wasn't aware and Obi-wan isn't going to heal Anakin in that case.

    Again, the Jedi are very anti-attachment. Healing is very pro-attachment.

    No one is "jumping through logical hoops" ... it is all explainable with lore that is known. I am sorry people don't just do what you do and throw their hands up going "That's just isn't possible" and decide not to think further.
    This post IS the definition of jumping through hoops. Head-canon. And i don't give a fuck about force healing existing in EU. it was never in a prior movie and was never gonna be as it would invalidate Anakin's fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    More like they don't want to use the Force in that way. Again, lorewise, the Jedi use the Force for Knowledge and Defense. Healing someone is neither of those things. In addition to the Jedi being very anti-attachment and healing being a very pro-attachment thing. A lost technique does make some sense, yes ... but again, it isn't the only way too explain things.

    And the way it is shown in canon, healing another puts stress/takes life energy away from the user making it a very dangerous technique.

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    So your argument it is that you don't care if it can be explained ... it will never make sense to you.
    Healing is the best defense against injuries. You're being stubborn now.
    /spit@Blizzard

  19. #5239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    This post IS the definition of jumping through hoops. Head-canon. And i don't give a fuck about force healing existing in EU. it was never in a prior movie and was never gonna be as it would invalidate Anakin's fall.
    Except it literally does none of that. You don't get to complain about jumping through hoops when you are jumping through hoops.

    Anakin's fall was through Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin. All that is needed to explain it is that Anakin didn't know about healing through the Force, or at least was taught it cannot stop death. The Jedi being able to heal does not take away from Anakin's fall in any way. Does it require an explanation? Not really.

    Again, the lines in the prequels weren't about healing, but stopping or potentially reversing death itself. Anakin's fall was driven by his attachment to Padme and the failure of being able to save his mother. All of that is present regardless if the Jedi can heal or not.

    Healing is the best defense against injuries. You're being stubborn now.
    You don't stop injuries via healing. The injury has to happen in order to heal it.
    The best defense against injuries are ones that prevent the injury from the first place.

    A helmet is better at stopping head injuries than a bandage after a head injury has occurred.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-12-29 at 09:20 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #5240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There were no "tiers". That's a fanbase conceit. There was just canon (the films and shows Lucas was involved in creating) and everything else.

    Plus, it's not even relevant. If it existed in the EU, it predates the canon existence in the films, and thus it wasn't the film in question that introduced that to the universe. Legends material is always up for being included/expanded/reworked in the canon, moving forward. Pulling from that old Legends material is sticking to Star Wars lore and content, rather than creating something previously unheard-of that could break lore.

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    Fair enough; I'm just getting through Clone Wars now, with Disney+. It's a slog, but I'm gonna get through it. Haven't gotten to that particular episode yet, so I misremembered, though I knew Yoda and Qui-gonn were the first two to re-learn the ability.



    Like the Jedi Mind Trick, to get past stormtroopers looking for certain droids?
    Like a Force Pull, so Luke could get his lightsaber and kill the Wampa?

    This is how the Force has always been used in Star Wars. They added new abilities fairly regularly, as the narrative needed some new capacity.
    Comparing 2 low lvl techniques (yes, you argued before mind trick was piss easy for jedis) with Force healing, a technique seemingly unknown to the strongest force users of the previous movies, IS a stretch.

    And i said it before. Having shit in the previous movies doesn't justify shit existing in the sequel trilogy. Disney could and should have done better, scenario and plot wise.
    They didn't, because they were lazy rehashing the OT. It's still shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except it literally does none of that. You don't get to complain about jumping through hoops when you are jumping through hoops.

    Anakin's fall was through Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin. All that is needed to explain it is that Anakin didn't know about healing through the Force, or at least was taught it cannot stop death. The Jedi being able to heal does not take away from Anakin's fall in any way. Does it require an explanation? Not really.

    Again, the lines in the prequels weren't about healing, but stopping or potentially reversing death itself. Anakin's fall was driven by his attachment to Padme and the failure of being able to save his mother. All of that is present regardless if the Jedi can heal or not.



    You don't stop injuries via healing. The injury has to happen in order to heal it.
    The best defense against injuries are ones that prevent the injury from the first place.

    A helmet is better at stopping head injuries than a bandage after a head injury has occurred.
    Wow. Is that your argument? i loled

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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That's been one of the largest issues with RoS: it's not that some new, crazy Force powers come into play, it's all about how said powers are introduced and used from a narrative perspective.

    The only new Force power that had any sort of buildup (as I've mentioned before) was the transfer of matter via Force Skype calls, and what makes it more acceptable and believable (not perfect or completely logical) is that the transfers started small, accidental, and not really important to the plot... plus, there was a lot of buildup which lead to the power being used in a proactive manner. Force healing just comes out of nowhere with no buildup, it's only used to resolve plot issues from the start, and despite a throw-away line being given by the Emperor as to why Rey has the power, Kylo ends up using the same power counter to the entire reasoning provided. While I can craft some sort of narrative as to how Kylo can use it (based upon the narrative, only "logical" reason is that healing Kylo passed on some semblance of the power to him, or he just transferred that lump of Force back to Rey), they're all still full of holes, and the movie doesn't even bother addressing this.

    When it comes to fantasy-based stories, especially with something like Force powers, the movies need to establish a set of rules and stick with it. If you can't stick with a set of rules, you run into situations where people with said powers will just always solve issues in boring ways as there is no legitimate conflict or adversity to overcome in most cases. This is how you get deus ex machina, Mary Sues, pick your trope where powers/objects/characters just come out of nowhere and somehow resolve the issues at hand. Not saying you can't change the rules, but you need to make acceptable explanations as to why the rules are changing. I'm seeing people trying to reason why certain things, such as Force healing or the Holdo maneuver actually make sense within the movies... great, why didn't the movies do this to an acceptable level? I'll circle around to my first statement: I don't have an issues with the existence of new, crazy Force powers being in the movies (or the Holdo maneuver, etc), but their introduction from a narrative standpoint was terrible to the point that it's extremely distracting for many people watching these movies.



    The big difference between those and what's occurring in RoS is that these powers are not only relatively small in scale and impact, but also there are rules and/or explanations to these powers (plus they're introduced basically in the first movie, the Wampa just at the start of the second), and they don't just show up to resolve most problems. The mind trick was explicitly stated that it only works on weak-minded people, and it's use is pretty moderate and innately limited by this rules... aka, it can't be used to solve most problems where you need to converse/convince people of things. Force pull actually becomes more of a narrative point when Luke trains with Yoda, as while Luke struggles to use it with the Wampa, it's used to show Luke's faults and misconceptions about the Force... plus, it starts small and eventually is used against him to show how overwhelming of a force that Vader is during their battle at the end of TESB.

    I think another issue is that a bigger different between the OT's use/introduction of Force powers is that the powers are almost always used as a last-ditch effort, if at all. If we take the trench run at the end of ANH, we don't just jump to Luke uses his sense via the Force to land the shot at the start. Instead, we see the Rebels actually making passes, using the targeting computer, and actually failing to hit the mark. The use of the Force is a last resort, and the power had already been introduced on a smaller scale where Luke was forced to use only the Force to guide his motions during training, but the tension is still there in the trench run because the power had only been used on a small scale and it's implied that it's still not a guarantee success if he's not using said power to solve problems all the time. Out of all the Force usage with a direct relation to the plot, this probably the largest application in the OT.

    If you look at the Force healing in RoS, it was the first solution to a scenario that likely had many. There's really not much stated in terms of limitations or rules, just that she's transferring her Force power into the creature (I'll let the established rules of Force bend on this one, although people are suddenly dropping dead from using the Force in this new trilogy). Unlike what we typically see in the OT, there doesn't seem to be any learning curve for powers and they're always used to solve major plot points. The powers aren't used to make some narrative or storytelling message/moral, either. I could shift some scenes dialogue around to where the Force healing could be used to have Rey learn that even though she has this awesome power, using it is bad or makes her lean Dark side or makes her too reliant on her Force powers to solve problems. Worst part is that Luke in TLJ could've easily been used as a setup to the morale tale of Rey becoming too reliant on Force power or the power usage causing her to turn, it was a missed opportunity to do something interesting.

    Does the OT have flaws? Certainly, but this new trilogy looks at those OT flaws and says, "Hold my beer..."
    Awsome analysis. Standing ovation, no sarcasm.
    /spit@Blizzard

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