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  1. #321
    TBC had better gearing system, you didnt waste 2-3 hours in a raid without ANYTHING, you would get badges. Pvp wasn't a measure of time but skills, which can't be stressed enough. I can't wait for TBC!
    The weak fear the shadows... fear controls them!

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    http://vanillaradar.com/elysium-stats/ (old data)
    https://elysium-project.org/main/stat (new realms opened in November- they peaked on just under 6k players on two realms.


    Vanilla players, for the most part) migrated over to official Classic. But in total there maybe were 200k people playing private Vanilla servers on and off, these have been joined by many many more who didn’t play private servers. The same wave of players would very likely join for TBC as they did for Classic.
    It’s not the case that Classic is only played by private server people, private server players are the minority- FACT.
    TBC had many more players than Vanilla did, the reasonable event is that TBC re-launch would be just as popular as Classic has been- if not more popular.
    The same would arguably be the case for Wrath of the Lich King, as that was also immensly popular.

    I get Classic/Vannila fanboi-ism, I really do. But don’t pretend that it’s a perfect game or the best game of the series... because it’s not!
    While I agree with you, that's not a source.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Kinda strange how it turned soley into a flying debate but whatever.

    At a certain point, the devs need to simply cut their losses on certain features and realize that they're here to stay.
    Flying is one of those things.
    After TBC, Wotlk, Cata and MoP, suddenly taking away a feature that is pretty fundamental in how people travel the world won't sit well with the audience.

    Whether it overall leads to a superior experience or not is another debate but trying to turn back the clock is a mistep.
    The same line of thinking made Blizzard rework Survival as a Melee spec, sure SV was once intended as Melee spec (a.k.a. WoW Beta) but then was reworked be more focused on surviving until you can get out of melee range again.

    Turning it after ~12 years into a melee spec isn't something that a lot of people enjoy, it's not that this design in itself is faulty (i think Hunters having a Melee spec is totally legit) but that realization came simply 12 years too late.


    Here's is my opinion on how to make the world interesting and incentive World PvP without touching flying:
    Put stuff into the world that people actually want to fight over.

    Not PvP objectives, not kills for a quest, something like reagents to craft stuff, that stuff was actually still fought over in TBC, regardless of flying mount, because mounting up meant that you essentially gave up the farmspot to another person.

    But i guess that's not what people want, rather have systems such as Professions simply continue to be a dead in the water system that simply get dragged along with each expansion despite that Blizzard has no clue what to do with them since Cata.



    I sort of agree with the OP on this one.
    In order to keep Arena balanced, Blizzard had to homogenize the classes by a lot to make everything viable.
    In Classic, each class was simply viable by the nature of having some unique tools that were crucial to counter another class.

    Not saying the Pre 2.0 Honor system was good, but Arena did have a negative impact on Class design in my opinion.
    Not disagreeing on the homogenization, but that was not felt in Burning Crusade as much as it was in later expansions. It was a gradual change in response to trying to balance arenas. Burning Crusade is a point where they still have the original class design but implemented a skill based PvP system. I have in the past said that for the imbalance BC had, it was a charming imbalance where the game still felt like an RPG. Overall, it was a step in the right direction from the honor system.

    Ultimately things like the debuff limit and some classes being flat out broken in vanilla makes it a mess. BC fixed many classes, or at least brought them into the right direction, without destroying the original class identities.

    For the record, if they did decide to add content to Classic or BC that was not in the original versions I think a rated battleground system would be a great choice.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Deferionus View Post
    Not disagreeing on the homogenization, but that was not felt in Burning Crusade as much as it was in later expansions.
    You're not wrong but personally i did have a very love / hate relation with Arena in TBC.
    The issue was that simply due to the Rock, Paper, Scissor design, you could practically concede a match once you saw the opponents comp.

    If you played something like Resto Shaman / Warrior in 2v2 and played vs Mage / Rogue, you're probably fucked.

    The mage just cc's your Warrior until hell freezes over and the Rogue keeps the Shaman stunlocked.
    Even if you somehow manage to screw them, they can just force a reset.

    Another example, imagine a certain Mana drain comp, if you played like Disc/Rogue, you just straight up lost vs Hunter/Druid, because you couldn't dispel poison effects and you'll be OOM to Viper Sting within minutes.

    Or losing a game to some random stun effect.
    In Vanilla, it was annoying to die due to some stun effect, but you shrugged it off because the entire game didn't depend on your survival (at least in general), but in Arena, these random stun effects just cost you the entire match and that was tilting as fuck.

    The game wasn't simply designed around a 3v3 combat situation, where a single death meant defeat and you felt that in TBC.

  5. #325
    I don't take sides in this. WoW pre-WoD was a great game and I'll play any of it that they release even if certain expansions have downsides.

  6. #326
    Brewmaster Outofmana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarator8 View Post
    By your logic, how could it happen that Classic PvE servers are alive and thriving? On the pserver scene, they tended to die quite damn fast, and never had the level of population we're seeing nowadays on the likes of Pyrewood Village, Mirage Raceway, or their US counterparts.
    Stopped right there as you clearly don't know the distinction of vanilla and TBC pvt servers. Most vanilla ones easily made it all the way to Naxx clears with a healthy amount of guilds, all TBC realms died before BT was even close to coming out as players quit in droves. This difference is what we're talking about here; an insane dropoff of TBC players vs vanilla players on private servers, pointing towards something flawed in TBC vs the vanilla counterpart which didn't stood the test of time. It's about the relative dropoff, of course retail is gonna have more players than a pvt server....

    Classic right now has more or less the same dropoff as vanilla pvt servers had (aka not much), saying playerbase is different is a way too simple argument as the entire top tier of classic currently has 90% pvt server ppl. As for vanilla pvt servers dying: Emerald Dream killed by Athairne himself as he got bored/made enough money, Nost killed by admins, Kronos very much alive until Naxx, both 1 and 3, Lightshope also very much alive and cleared Naxx. Not once did a realm die because of players _quitting_ . All TBC realms bar the one that was online for 1 day (lol) died because they lost their players within a month of TBC. First week 3 guild karazhan runs, second week 1 run, third week guild merges, and then rip with almost everyone moving back to their vanilla realm they came from, or moving to WotLK ones, which _did_ retain playerbases all around.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Flying destroyed world pvp.
    World PvP never existed as a game mode.

  8. #328
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Even if that viability was stand there and constantly rebuffing people or sit out of combat not hitting anything so you can rez someone?
    Literally no classes in TBC had the "constantly rebuffing People" or "sit out of combat" bullshit you are talking about. By the time TBC came around things like Blessings were 15mins long (extended to 30mins long mid TBC), MotW, PW:Fort were all extended times.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    U are minority
    No, the minority are those complaining about side content that is the PvP mini game.

    You might as well be complaining about pet battles.

  10. #330
    SMall scale arena is terrible

    Anyone who disagrees is probably terrible

    Prefer the vanilla honor system to that crap

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    No, the minority are those complaining about side content that is the PvP mini game.

    You might as well be complaining about pet battles.
    Seems like the only people who play these old servers are pvpers....so idk

    Def not gonna be a mini game the second time around lol

    If you playing any older mmo purely for pve you're not gonna have a good time.

  11. #331
    Stood in the Fire Uvania's Avatar
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    none forces you to play TBC, i want to play Karazhan again but apart from that i dont see myself "reliving" the past and this comes from someone that cleared all content and was 2k+ every arena season in "original" TBC.

  12. #332
    then those people should not play on PvP servers simple as that, its not about being an asshole ITS PART OF THE GAME.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Outofmana View Post
    Stopped right there as you clearly don't know the distinction of vanilla and TBC pvt servers. Most vanilla ones easily made it all the way to Naxx clears with a healthy amount of guilds, all TBC realms died before BT was even close to coming out as players quit in droves. This difference is what we're talking about here; an insane dropoff of TBC players vs vanilla players on private servers, pointing towards something flawed in TBC vs the vanilla counterpart which didn't stood the test of time. It's about the relative dropoff, of course retail is gonna have more players than a pvt server....

    Classic right now has more or less the same dropoff as vanilla pvt servers had (aka not much), saying playerbase is different is a way too simple argument as the entire top tier of classic currently has 90% pvt server ppl. As for vanilla pvt servers dying: Emerald Dream killed by Athairne himself as he got bored/made enough money, Nost killed by admins, Kronos very much alive until Naxx, both 1 and 3, Lightshope also very much alive and cleared Naxx. Not once did a realm die because of players _quitting_ . All TBC realms bar the one that was online for 1 day (lol) died because they lost their players within a month of TBC. First week 3 guild karazhan runs, second week 1 run, third week guild merges, and then rip with almost everyone moving back to their vanilla realm they came from, or moving to WotLK ones, which _did_ retain playerbases all around.
    Have you even played on Darrowshire? That realm was dying already by the time AQ released, and even Anathema, despite being on Naxx patch, had more players. In the end, it was Darrowshire that was merged into Anathema and not the other way around - despite the fact Darrowshire was the only PvE server while there was also Lightbringer as a (massively more popular) PvP server.

    Meanwhile on Classic, ALL the PvE servers are currently bustling - at least EU-side - with Mirage Raceway, Pyrewood Village and Nethergarde Keep almost reaching overpopulation levels. The few realms that died or are crippled EU-side are PvP ones - Flamelash most famously, but many others are at risk.

    If you think you're going to see the same pattern on official TBC servers that you saw on pservers, then you're in for massive disappointment.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Literally no classes in TBC had the "constantly rebuffing People" or "sit out of combat" bullshit you are talking about. By the time TBC came around things like Blessings were 15mins long (extended to 30mins long mid TBC), MotW, PW:Fort were all extended times.
    This is the post I was quoting.
    "Wait, seriously? You think Vanilla and TBC were anything but framed around raiding? WoW has always been a raiding game design front and center."
    Since he said vanilla and "always a raiding game" I was making my comments around raiding in vanilla. Are you deliberately trying to derail by misrepresenting my posts?
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  15. #335
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karrad View Post
    Isle of Quel'Danas solves the whole flying ruins pvp thing
    Was just about to say.

    And if there are enough people to go around, world pvp will happen. With or without flying.
    You just have to get people out of the cities into the world. Most people go out of the cities to get materials and the like. So more of that.


    I mean.. whats more annoying than the guy that's farming the same shit you're farming?
    What better solution than to just kill him? And for those that really rather just compete passively there are always the PvE servers.

    But ultimately this is what gets people going. I remember Quel'Danas as an always busy place during primetime.
    Why? Because people had to be there to get their shit done. And it was glorious.
    Last edited by Evolixe; 2019-12-30 at 04:01 AM.

  16. #336
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    Flying never killed World PvP. Resilience killed World PvP because it turned quick skirmishes into several minute slugfests if someone was geared (boring) and if one person had PvP gear and the other person didn't it was an absolute slaughter.
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there? | Classic Priest

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    [FONT=Arial Black]

    Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
    engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

    .
    I'm so sick of people not reading past the headline and linking that stupid article every time arena is mentioned
    If you read the article the actual quote/interview, he talks about HOW it was implemented was a mistake, not planning or designing it from the beginning of wow's development - which caused the need of various band aid fixes like resilience, let alone class mechanics/balance issues.

  18. #338
    Herald of the Titans enigma77's Avatar
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    Agreed.

    TBC was the beginning of the end.

    Fuck it.

    #NEVERTBC

  19. #339
    Calling it now, TBC releases and all the classic servers are absolute ghost towns. Not exactly a bold prediction but its going to be pretty funny.

  20. #340
    TBC was a true expansion. It took what was there and expanded upon it. No reinvent the whole game. No systems designed upon systems for systems sake. Just an expansion. I think it's only weakness was it took a massive world and really shrunk it down to the BC area for the most part. Flying at the time was alright because it was limited to BC areas and in those areas you had zones designed to need flying.

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