Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Ghostpanther]

I think as more people in the Jewish and Christian community are attacked there the restrictions will be challenged... I doubt NY is going to be able to protect all the residence there that are constantly getting attacked now.

Yep. The police can not always protect the citizenry. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled they have no legal obligation to do so. They are enforcers of the laws.

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There is nothing graphic about it. You can't see any blood.

You could make that arguement with the New Zealand Church shooting, but not here.

I agree basically with what you are saying. But it does come with a graphic warning for viewers. As the clear shot of him shooting the one person at close range and then getting shot himself, for some can be disturbing.

[Spectral]

Wow. Did not realize that. That is bullshit and appears to violate the Constitution. Such laws need to be challenged. Wonder if they have been?

And yes, you are dead on about how NYC controls the state level politics. It is among some states I would never live in.

Yeah, it's pretty wild. I don't know what the legal challenges look like, but it sure seems like it's just plain blatantly unconstitutional. I don't know how any person can square "shall not be infringed" with the procedures states like that happen. On the flip side, a coworker/friend just moved here (Wisconsin) from Connecticut and she was blown away that the procedure for getting a handgun is "go to the store, fill out the paperwork, get one in ten minutes unless you've done some bad shit that pops up on the background check".

Somewhat related note, at the range today working on getting my wife's hunting rifle zeroed, I was once again reminded of how just how dopey the conception behind a lot of these laws are. In the minds of people that are scared of terms like "semi-automatic", a little 10/22 Ruger is a weapon of war, but a hunting rifle that delivers about 20 times the force is perfectly fine. We probably shouldn't have people writing gun regulations that have absolutely no idea what these weapons are actually like.

[DarkAmbient]

Armed worshippers quickly kill gunman after fatal shooting at Fort Worth-area church
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/l...238807963.html

Graphic security footage at that link...

That's the most American thing ever. When satire becomes real:

[Ghostpanther]

Yeah, it's pretty wild. I don't know what the legal challenges look like, but it sure seems like it's just plain blatantly unconstitutional. I don't know how any person can square "shall not be infringed" with the procedures states like that happen. On the flip side, a coworker/friend just moved here (Wisconsin) from Connecticut and she was blown away that the procedure for getting a handgun is "go to the store, fill out the paperwork, get one in ten minutes unless you've done some bad shit that pops up on the background check".

Somewhat related note, at the range today working on getting my wife's hunting rifle zeroed, I was once again reminded of how just how dopey the conception behind a lot of these laws are. In the minds of people that are scared of terms like "semi-automatic", a little 10/22 Ruger is a weapon of war, but a hunting rifle that delivers about 20 times the force is perfectly fine. We probably shouldn't have people writing gun regulations that have absolutely no idea what these weapons are actually like.

Yep. Some laws are not going to protect a victim from some scum criminal, who does not give a shit about the laws, which the Constitution grants that right for the purpose of self defense. The type of laws they have in New York, is what the gun rights groups should be working on to challenge them in the courts.

The system should not take more than 30 mins to do a background check. I only had to wait two days to get my conceal carry permit once I applied. And that was because they first run the check and then make the license itself and mailed it to me, because that is how I wanted it to be done, instead of having to drive 50 miles back to get it the next day. Some get them them within a hour or less when they go to sign up for them.

I agree, some legislatures have no business working on gun laws when they know so damn little about guns. And it is ridiculous to label the Ruger 10/22 a weapon of war. It is a semi-auto .22 caliber rifle. Gheeze.

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That's the most American thing ever. When satire becomes real:

Your video is blocked in the US. So whatever your point is, you need to simply state it.

[BigToast]

Considering how crazy the Democrat party is acting lately, he may anyway.

Democratic Party. Democrat Party is not a thing.

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Anecdotal evidence does not prove the "good guy with a gun" bs. https://www.nber.org/papers/w23510

[DarkAmbient]

Your video is blocked in the US. So whatever your point is, you need to simply state it.

See if this works

[Spectral]

@DarkAmbient @Ghostpanther - here's a link to the video that works in the States.

[Svifnymr]

Yeah, it's pretty wild. I don't know what the legal challenges look like, but it sure seems like it's just plain blatantly unconstitutional. I don't know how any person can square "shall not be infringed" with the procedures states like that happen.

I think at least in the rest of the state, the local authorities may grant the handgun license (even if the process takes a while), vs NYC where unless you're connected you're not getting the OK at all.

On the flip side, a coworker/friend just moved here (Wisconsin) from Connecticut and she was blown away that the procedure for getting a handgun is "go to the store, fill out the paperwork, get one in ten minutes unless you've done some bad shit that pops up on the background check".

It's like when folks from up north come here (Florida) and don't understand why grocery stores have wine/beer (not allowed up there). Then people from the midwest wonder why they can't buy hard liquor in a grocery store. Different laws, different cultures, but "diversity" doesn't include such things in the speeches.

Somewhat related note, at the range today working on getting my wife's hunting rifle zeroed, I was once again reminded of how just how dopey the conception behind a lot of these laws are. In the minds of people that are scared of terms like "semi-automatic", a little 10/22 Ruger is a weapon of war, but a hunting rifle that delivers about 20 times the force is perfectly fine. We probably shouldn't have people writing gun regulations that have absolutely no idea what these weapons are actually like.

Not even just the power, but as I've mentioned before people don't understand the basics of power/ distance when firearms are concerned. It's probably not your choice, but lets assume a 30-06 round since it's over 100 years old but still in use. More energy at 200 yards than 223 at muzzle, but still capable long past that range. Then you read stories about how various anti-gunners have bodyguards it would matter against a basic hunting rifle they never saw...

Like the (local to me) UPS shooting a couple weeks back (that dropped off the news pretty quickly), even an AR15 is a rifle, you don't need to charge a position like you might use your bayonet. There is no reason they couldn't have picked off the guys from the sides at distances that they would not have been easily visible, let alone using passenger cars for cover to advance...

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Lol! Hard to carry a lever action rifle concealed. Plus it would be illegal anyway. I still think New York state itself is a May issue one. Which basically means you may not get a carry conceal permit just because you want one for self defense even if you have a clean record.

That's not an actual rifle (no stock, it's a pistol) though, but rifles (including levers, excluding semi's) are generally much easier to get in NY-State as far as I know. I was generally referring to general gun ownership rather than concealed carry though, yeah.

[Themius]

Two incidents

Six seconds two shots two deaths by shotgun in Texas

New York machete attack no deaths.

Imagine if he had a gun in the second attack.

[Svifnymr]

Two shootings

Six seconds two shots two deaths by shotgun in Texas

New York machete attack no deaths.

Imagine if he had a gun in the second attack.

Imagine if he'd blocked the doors and burned the house down?
What game are we playing?

[Themius]

Imagine if he'd blocked the doors and burned the house down?
What game are we playing?

Apparently you’re playing the game of guns don’t affect murder numbers which is false.

[StillMcfuu]

The way I understand it ( and I may be wrong ) in New York, a applicant has to show what the state considers good reasons for wanting a conceal carry permit. Just a " it is my Constitutional right to ", will not get you one. But with the two recently attacks now on the Jewish community, I would say they have good reasons. But I think every law abiding citizen in the US has good reasons. The states which require such nonsense, should be challenged in the courts. All the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.

I am thankful I live in a shall issue State.

A good reason is you own a gun store and lock up nightly, or you move money from your business to the bank. That's how NYC sees it. Being the victim of a crime is not a good reason (I actually agree, to me its closing the bar barndoors after the horses are out.)

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Apparently you’re playing the game of guns don’t affect murder numbers which is false.

That kind of slippery slope argument is best left not in a reasonable discussion.

[DarkAmbient]

@DarkAmbient @Ghostpanther - here's a link to the video that works in the States.

Thanks man, third time lucky. As soon as I watched this shooting the Brass Eye sketch came to mind.

[Themius]

A good reason is you own a gun store and lock up nightly, or you move money from your business to the bank. That's how NYC sees it. Being the victim of a crime is not a good reason (I actually agree, to me its closing the bar barndoors after the horses are out.)

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That kind of slippery slope argument is best left not in a reasonable discussion.

It isn’t slippery we have stats from other countries.

We have high murder rates because guns are used in many crimes and have a higher chance to kill than knives and hammers. So other countries like the UK can have the same to higher violent crime rates but with a much lower murder rate.

[Spectral]

Thanks man, third time lucky. As soon as I watched this shooting the Brass Eye sketch came to mind.

I had the unfair advantage of being able to test from a US computer

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It isn’t slippery we have stats from other countries.

We have high murder rates because guns are used in many crimes and have a higher chance to kill than knives and hammers. So other countries like the UK can have the same to higher violent crime rates but with a much lower murder rate.

We've probably been over this before, but there is no correlation between number of firearms in the country and the murder rate.

Image link - direct post isn't working.

There are a number of other figures in the link that address potentially correlations within low murder nations, high murder nations, European nations, American states, and more. There's just nothing there.

The United States isn't part of some consistent trend where more firearms result in more murders, it's a weird outlier on just about every axis you can find and doesn't serve as good evidence for any preferred policy. Also as we've been over before, the extent to which the United States has a murder problem mostly looks like a story of socioeconomic and demographic issues, not one of firearms. The demographics most likely to own firearms in the United States (rural and white) don't have high murder rates.

[Themius]

I had the unfair advantage of being able to test from a US computer

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We've probably been over this before, but there is no correlation between number of firearms in the country and the murder rate.

Image link - direct post isn't working.

There are a number of other figures in the link that address potentially correlations within low murder nations, high murder nations, European nations, American states, and more. There's just nothing there.

The United States isn't part of some consistent trend where more firearms result in more murders, it's a weird outlier on just about every axis you can find and doesn't serve as good evidence for any preferred policy. Also as we've been over before, the extent to which the United States has a murder problem mostly looks like a story of socioeconomic and demographic issues, not one of firearms. The demographics most likely to own firearms in the United States (rural and white) don't have high murder rates.

The states that have the highest gun violence rates per 100k going by wiki using fbi and barring suicides but focusing on violence are mostly red states who have lower populations and more lax gun laws in general while the safest tend to have tougher laws and also happen to generally more often be blue.

There seems to be a correlation there also this post is not an end all be all.

The U.K. tracked its own rates before and after tougher laws on guns, violence went up but murder went down.

States with stricter laws and less guns do not magically end up with fewer murders by guns per capita than state’s flooded with guns by happenstance. And again this is ignoring suicides. Though suicides are also lower.

[Spectral]

The states that have the highest gun violence rates per 100k going by wiki using fbi and barring suicides but focusing on violence are mostly red states who have lower populations and more lax gun laws in general while the safest tend to have tougher laws and also happen to generally more often be blue.

There seems to be a correlation there also this post is not an end all be all.

The U.K. tracked its own rates before and after tougher laws on guns, violence went up but murder went down.

States with stricter laws and less guns do not magically end up with fewer murders by guns per capita than state’s flooded with guns by happenstance. And again this is ignoring suicides. Though suicides are also lower.

It's weird that you went to "seems to be a correlation" when I linked you to the data showing that number of firearms and the homicide rate by state doesn't correlate. Here:

First, go to the Wikipedia page on firearm death rates in the United States. If you don’t like referencing Wikipedia, then instead go to this study from the journal Injury Prevention, which was widely sourced by media on both the left and right after it came out, based on a survey of 4000 respondents. Then go to this table published by the FBI, detailing overall homicide rates, as well as gun homicide rates, by state. Copy and paste the data into Excel, and plot one versus the other on a scatter diagram. Alternately, do the whole thing on the back of a napkin. It’s not hard.

link to graph

This looks less like data and more like someone shot a piece of graph paper with #8 birdshot.
If the data were correlated, we should be able to develop a best fit relationship to some mathematical trend function, and calculate an “R^2 Value,” which is a mathematical way of describing how well a trendline predicts a set of data. R^2 Values vary between 0 and 1, with 1 being a perfect fit to the data, and 0 being no fit. The R^2 Value for the linear trendline on this plot is 0.0031. Total garbage. No other function fits it either.

[Dystemper]

People who say " well at least they used a knife" have never been stabbed it seen a knife attack , I have. I have a firearm to use because knife attacks are brutal , vicious and ugly. Google the images of knife attacks and tell me " At least they had a knife" . It's ignorance . This is why we are trained to use deadly force on a assaliant with a blade if they get with in 20 feet of you.

[Themius]

It's weird that you went to "seems to be a correlation" when I linked you to the data showing that number of firearms and the homicide rate by state doesn't correlate. Here:

Seems to be a correlation with states with stricter laws compared to those with more lax laws.

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People who say " well at least they used a knife" have never been stabbed it seen a knife attack , I have. I have a firearm to use because knife attacks are brutal , vicious and ugly. Google the images of knife attacks and tell me " At least they had a knife" . It's ignorance . This is why we are trained to use deadly force on a assaliant with a blade if they get with in 20 feet of you.

Ignorance? Knives overall have less capacity for mass harm.

[Dystemper]

Then you know very little of how to use a knife or bladed weapon . Many examples of a knife being used to kill/ wound multiple people at a time.