Why the Elf-human coupling hate?

[mickybrighteyes]

I merely did that to demonstrate that night elves were more than wood elves from creation, introduction and pretty much all their major racial progress - I simply got carried away going through every detail in the days I cared.

They're both overused fantasy tropes. A point you made at one time for deriding wood elves. Part of why I find this particular case amusing.

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There are no prominent male rangers. And before you say lor'themar or Halduron, their ranger activities are near non-existant. Lor'themmar is a leader now, he doesn't go to the front lines, except for Naz'jatar, th e first time he has actually somewaht played more than a brief minor role.

rangers in what organization exactly? And do these organizations actually have any stories at all in the recent setting. you're quick to discount the current Ranger-General as not doing much.... when the Farstriders are currently in a very non-existent state in the current stories being told. Vareesa is in much the same state with her Silver Covenant last taking any presence when purging Dalaran.

[Amaterasu65]

To be fair, Blizz dropped the classical aspects of the Blood Elves, Ranger and Mages, nearly entirely outside of token npcs. Its all about Paladins now.

Which sucks because Liadrin is trash, the lore about Blood Knights puts them in bad light and the Farstriders/Magic affinity of the race is completely overshadowed.

[Soon-TM]

anyone with a blood elf avatar is a sylvanas fanboy or fangirl.

You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried.

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To be fair, Blizz dropped the classical aspects of the Blood Elves, Ranger and Mages, nearly entirely outside of token npcs. Its all about Paladins now.

I'm especially bothered by BE mages being barely a footnote in the overall narrative. The first race native to Azeroth to master the arcane are nothing noteworthy compared to Humans, Demons or even !@#$ing Orcs.

Draenei are in the same boat btw, maybe even worse.

[Graeham]

It's a dull, overused trope and one of the many reasons as to why elven lore has been handled very poorly over the years. It's ridiculous that all three Windrunner sisters are not only still alive (well, partially in Sylvanas' case) but also happened to enter a relationship with a human instead of a fellow elf.

Kael'thas was handled exceptionally poorly as well - and part of that is due to having him fawn over Jaina.

[Zandalariprelate]

:Sight: Ravenmoon season in up again here

[Xath]

You couldn't be more wrong even if you tried.

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I'm especially bothered by BE mages being barely a footnote in the overall narrative. The first race native to Azeroth to master the arcane are nothing noteworthy compared to Humans, Demons or even !@#$ing Orcs.

Draenei are in the same boat btw, maybe even worse.

Nice cut off I said it's a safe bet I didn't say it was a universal rule also it's pretty accurate not 100% but over 90% easy

[NuLogic]

Because elves are easy since their are no men.

[ravenmoon]

To be fair, Blizz dropped the classical aspects of the Blood Elves, Ranger and Mages, nearly entirely outside of token npcs. Its all about Paladins now.

Ah, I have some disatreement with this. The light part o the high elves, which was strong in the pre-blood elf era (if your emember High elf priests and mages were what the race was famous for in WC2, before seeing the classic ranger side in WC3 - people completely forget we thought of high elves as teh both the best priests and mages, and they did that role for the alliance).

Introduction of the blood elves and connecting their lore to the night elves raised the mage prominence a lot, because the night elven highborne are painted as the arcane crazy lot. Furthermore this historical aspect and the magical presentation of the blood elves almost unilaterally made people think the only blood elf identity is arcane and that is opposite to the night elf one of nature, where both assumptions are actually quite wrong - though I see where people got it from.

Blizzard actually during wow's life time hasn't empahsised every aspect of the race at the same time, but if you pay attention to their introduction and the lore that is both written in manuals ,novels and shown, you would see everything they mean the race to be right from the start. what happens is different things are emphasized at different moments.

Right now the light side via the paladins is brought the forefront, but it doesn't negate the mage legacy nor the farstrider legacy of the race, which have had their moments to shine.

I make the same arguements concerning the night elves, the night elven high intensity and aptitude for magic is clearly outlinde in teh races opening narrative in WC3 and shown emphatically in the WotA, base don that information you can then observe that even the most visible nature presentation of the night elves which was with classsics Teldrassil and Ashenvale zones, you would have known the central role the arcane well of eternity continued to play to that race. But WoW saw a shift in night elf focus from the Sentinel female warrior hunter priestess which was by far the predominant identity of the night elves in WC3, to the druidic one for classic - wotlk (b/c the druid class activity in TBC and WoTLK was the only time we saw night elves). In Cata that focus began to shift, the return of the highborne and the arcane was most prominent aspect of the night elves, though their portrayal was more balanced. In Legion, the arcane and Fel sides of this race dominated, but Val'sharah ensured we had the druids play a significant enough role, sadly the role of the priests in the Broken shore was cut for 7.2 the devs said, because the original plan had Tyrande and the order at the centre, and it was swapped for more legion and class order driven focus instead (one wonders why it could not have been both).

If you look overall on the night elves you would actually see blizzard has put roughly equal developing time into Night elven arcane and Order of ELune, nature and druidic , fel and demon hunters. Add the quantity of content, the references and focuses in books, the zone, and time of development it paints a very interestin picture. But the reason people feel night elves are mainly druidic as opposed to female warrior priest based race or an arcane talented race that still has factions like the highborne, moonguard , nightborne is because of the levelling areas. People play the levelling areas over and over again, and unlike the blood elf new content that tends to lock in on one aspect (currently the paladins is the one), the night elf one has instead just being more balanced, (e.g. while we got a lot more arcane and fel stuff in legion, we also got a lot of druidic and Order of Elune (priest, sentinel, warden) related stuff to of near equal quantity

[Oswen]

Ah, I have some disatreement with this. The light part o the high elves, which was strong in the pre-blood elf era (if your emember High elf priests and mages were what the race was famous for in WC2, before seeing the classic ranger side in WC3 - people completely forget we thought of high elves as teh both the best priests and mages, and they did that role for the alliance).

That's not accurate though.
High Elves were introduced only as Archers/Rangers in WC2 and were all about archery, runic stones and the like; think them just as "generic elves" with a strong wood elf tone since Night Elves didn't exist at the time.
And they also had ships, with unicorn flags.
Mages, Paladins and everything related to the Light were human units.

Only in WC3 we saw High Elven priests, sorceresses and later the Blood elf units which gave them the strong magical-focused appearance and that was mostly to make them stand out from the newly introduced Night Elves which pretty much stole all the wood elves themes.

[Itori]

Its just a bad combo, unless you got special plot armor then the human always dies off first, and ask yourself would you wat to be with someone knowing full well you’ll mostly live 10 of their lifetimes and maybe even outlive all of your kids. Honestly though i dont hate it though, i would like to have seen sylvanas and her boi toy settle down instead of going cray cray.

[vsb]

Human females must breed from human males! It's aberration. It's even worse than inter-racial relationships in real life. Though it's ok for human males to copulate with elf females.

[ravenmoon]

That's not accurate though.
High Elves were introduced only as Archers/Rangers in WC2 and were all about archery, runic stones and the like; think them just as "generic elves" with a strong wood elf tone since Night Elves didn't exist at the time.
And they also had ships, with unicorn flags.
Mages, Paladins and everything related to the Light were human units.

Only in WC3 we saw High Elven priests, sorceresses and later the Blood elf units which gave them the strong magical-focused appearance and that was mostly to make them stand out from the newly introduced Night Elves which pretty much stole all the wood elves themes.

Thanks for the correction..., I distinctly remember the strength of the high elf priests on par with the mages, but it seems when TBC was introduced, everyone forgot that race was equally strong in priests - but that's cos they shone a light on the arcane more than the light. They would make up for it later.


Although I understand how it could be perceived that way by the playerbase, but I don't think the intention of night elves was to steal any of those aspects from high elves. I believe night elves were introduced to have their own more primal /raw or concentrated versions of all the elven "pillars" or features, this means, arcane magic, rangering/forestry, magical high fantasy. Their version was meant to be a different type of those things and more pure or concentrated/focused, namely because they were far older and immortal, and they are the original "pure" elven stock, so their elven characteristics and societies are a more highly developed version to further distinguish them from humans.

I say this because when you look at the pre-sundering arcane development, the druidic development, the forest love, their civilziation and empire - on all these counts they are greater than what we see with the high elves and they are "purer" to those themes too, while the high el ves have a lot of human influence, you have the night elves and their orders almost completley dedicated to their theme, whether it's arcane, Elune or nature, they're puritans in what they do.

I just think that was the design, the problem is players only go withwhat they see, so if blizzard only showed the druidic par ot f the night elves for a long time becuase they were busy boosting other races (especially horde races) and it would take many years before they got back to the night elves to show more, then people perceived based only on thegame information. But the arcane exploits of the night elves are stated in the manual and described in a trilogy, and later further developed in cata and Legion, the female warrior priests are seen much more in WC3, and eventually in WoT pre-event and 8.1 (that's an 16 year gap from WC3 TFT) - but the truth is, if you take the novels and lore narratives to mean exactly what they say, then you would understand the night elves have their own versions of all these things.

Similarly the high elves ranger and archer themes are all there, they just don't get as much focus based on the time. In TBC it was the mage identity, then in the Windrunner sisters its the ranger identity, then lately WoD to BFA it's the Light/paladin identity.


in other words, the long periods of times without updates or racial focus, leaves people with only the starting experience (which is a stage in the race's story) to define them, and with starting experience night elves being all about druidsm, people associate them as the main elven race for that sort of thing, rather than seeing it as just one of 3 or 4 main things about night elves the lore makes sure it tells you.

[Wyrt]

Name all the major Thalassian elfXThalassian elf couples. There are literally none, but we have had 3 major human/elf couplings.

Also, I just generally don't like half breeds between different species in general. It opens up way too much room for fuckery when there's no established rules. Humans and elves are not related at all, not even distantly, completely separate branches of life.

And halfbreed children are rarely interesting for anything other than being a halfbreed. It's a cheap shortcut to trying to make a character interesting. At least Blizzard doesn't try to do that like players do in RP.

The age thing is also a huge problem. Thalassian elves apparently live 10,000+ years and humans live like 80. Kind of creepy when the 3000 year old elf is fucking a 30 year old human.

[Soon-TM]

Because that's what happens when you want to write like Tolkien without actually being Tolkien. What was a very rare occurrence in LotR (and a quite bittersweet one at that) has become the norm in Warcraft, and without any drawback worth mentioning. Wish fulfillment at its worst.

[Eggroll]

The thing is I understood his position, even though I can understand a night elf getting very annoyed at that. But night elf reactions in the war of thorns towards Anduin are over played, most of you are under 40, but those amongst you who are wise and mature must surely spot the behaviour of Tyrande as portrayed in those encounters is over-exaggerated for an ancient, wise woman and High priestess.

Tyrande has lived through a bigger genocide, the Legion's first invasion nearly wiped out the Kaldorei, it just seems that in the face of other threats that could strategically come back to bite her and her people in the arse, going all emo on Anduin or hating him for pursuing the strategically ocrrect choice while having no patienence (for a 10k + year old woman and leadeR) just strikes me as off.

still i can understand both her position and Anduin's concerning his choices over committing alliance forces. Even for a person who desperately loves their people, I can't consider Anduin's actions as bad, despite sympathising with tyrande, in fact I expected more from her, and recognise blizzard were pushing the night elf reaction because of community pressure.. Darkshore was originally slated to come in 8.3, pushing it this early makes Tyrande look rash, and over-emo, lacking the ability to be patient even under extreme dureess, something she didn't have a problem with during the War of the Ancients, where the situation from every angle was more dire than the War of Thorns.

Now getting angry at Anduin may be popular and satisfy the male need for action and vengeance against a wrong, and thus be liked, but again, the whole thing is handled poorly concerning the night elves. They don't come of us cunning, ancient, wise or powerful.thirsting for vengeance, reckless vengeance again uncharateristic for the racial profile is all i get out of how they handled the whole affair.

It's not even about vengeance. It's about protecting your subjects from the onslaught of the Horde. What use is this so called "Alliance" if you have no allies in your hour of need?

And my point remains. He gained nothing by attacking the Undercity. He only wasted Alliance lives.

Furthermore, Anduin is simply the ingame manifestation of the devs hate boner for nelves and their players. So of course he is hated. What goes around comes around. Had you played the Teldrassil scenario you would know how he reacted to the genocide of Teldrassil. He shrugged it off and called it "unfortunate" and moved on not giving a damn. And yeah, Blizz devs like to depict nelves as incompetent idiots.

Also he acts like an idiot when he has great war heroes like Alleria and Turalyon in his ranks but he's always whining that he is "alone". Give me a break.

I find your rationalizing of the event of the genocide quite disturbing to be honest. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it happened to you....

So long, as one viewer commented:
"More cathartic than anything the bfa story gave nightelf players."

[Specialka]

By attacking Undercity, he wanted the Eastern Kingdom to be under total Alliance control. It only rests Quel'thalas to deal with. We will see how it goes in Shadowlands.

The mini movie is nicely done but pointless. Look at its title, eye for eye a.k.a Retalation law in english? There is a reason why we abolished that in our modern society.

As for Tyrande, she should be wiser than this. What does she gained from attacking Darkshore? There is no one to protect there, maybe ressources but heavily paid. From a strategic point of view, this is not a good move.

[ravenmoon]

It's not even about vengeance. It's about protecting your subjects from the onslaught of the Horde. What use is this so called "Alliance" if you have no allies in your hour of need?

And my point remains. He gained nothing by attacking the Undercity. He only wasted Alliance lives.

Furthermore, Anduin is simply the ingame manifestation of the devs hate boner for nelves and their players. So of course he is hated. What goes around comes around. Had you played the Teldrassil scenario you would know how he reacted to the genocide of Teldrassil. He shrugged it off and called it "unfortunate" and moved on not giving a damn. And yeah, Blizz devs like to depict nelves as incompetent idiots.

Also he acts like an idiot when he has great war heroes like Alleria and Turalyon in his ranks but he's always whining that he is "alone". Give me a break.

I find your rationalizing of the event of the genocide quite disturbing to be honest. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it happened to you....

So long, as one viewer commented:
"More cathartic than anything the bfa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0y7qatM2ro

I really like night elves, and few are more acutely aware of their very poor treatment and ridiculous lack of co consideration.

Tyrande insisting on reclaiming darkshore for vengeance at the time she did, with the urgent need to stop the horde activities in Zandalar and Darkshore already being lost with the people already wiped out is what was silly to me.

If the night elves were still alive and darkshore was in their hands and face being lost and their people slaughtered, then I would understand...but she storms off purely for vengeance where failure to stop the horde in Zandalar could empower them much further, not to mention failure to stop Azshara and N'Zot could destroy the world.

I enjoyed the video by the way. Thanks for linking i.

As for my reaction if it were real, if I had wisdom and great intelligence I would react as I have stated. I'm not saying I may not have attacked Darkshore, but hating or yelling at a king for not helping me commit forces for my vengeance which would not only leave the rest of my faction open to losing necessary new allies to a horde invasion and destroy the real chance of defeating the faction that I had, which would make reclaiming all of kali for a piece of cake after the fact with minimal life loss...

As I said, if night elves were still living in darkshore and the zone was still under there control, then yes, I would be fully on board with how they wrote Tyrande.

But I am not, and I expect more from an ancient like her, choosing vengeance over the real possibility of finishing off all the horde and ending the war in Zandalar...instead throw that away to beat forces in a that is darkshore already lost

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By attacking Undercity, he wanted the Eastern Kingdom to be under total Alliance control. It only rests Quel'thalas to deal with. We will see how it goes in Shadowlands.

The mini movie is nicely done but pointless. Look at its title, eye for eye a.k.a Retalation law in english? There is a reason why we abolished that in our modern society.

As for Tyrande, she should be wiser than this. What does she gained from attacking Darkshore? There is no one to protect there, maybe ressources but heavily paid. From a strategic point of view, this is not a good move.

Exactly, fully agreed here, and I am one of her biggest supporters, but I hate how the devs did this affair, it makes her look silly rather than having true knowledge or insight worthy of an immortal whose lived through a bigger genocide.

[Soon-TM]

@Eggroll I always love the part when Anduin evidently has plenty of troops to send to Zandalar/KT, but none (bar a handful of Worgen and the PC) to help a long standing ally.

[Eggroll]

I really like night elves, and few are more acutely aware of their very poor treatment and ridiculous lack of co consideration.

Tyrande insisting on reclaiming darkshore for vengeance at the time she did, with the urgent need to stop the horde activities in Zandalar and Darkshore already being lost with the people already wiped out is what was silly to me.

If the night elves were still alive and darkshore was in their hands and face being lost and their people slaughtered, then I would understand...but she storms off purely for vengeance where failure to stop the horde in Zandalar could empower them much further, not to mention failure to stop Azshara and N'Zot could destroy the world.

I enjoyed the video by the way. Thanks for linking i.

As for my reaction if it were real, if I had wisdom and great intelligence I would react as I have stated. I'm not saying I may not have attacked Darkshore, but hating or yelling at a king for not helping me commit forces for my vengeance which would not only leave the rest of my faction open to losing necessary new allies to a horde invasion and destroy the real chance of defeating the faction that I had, which would make reclaiming all of kali for a piece of cake after the fact with minimal life loss...

As I said, if night elves were still living in darkshore and the zone was still under there control, then yes, I would be fully on board with how they wrote Tyrande.

But I am not, and I expect more from an ancient like her, choosing vengeance over the real possibility of finishing off all the horde and ending the war in Zandalar...instead throw that away to beat forces in a that is darkshore already lost

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Exactly, fully agreed here, and I am one of her biggest supporters, but I hate how the devs did this affair, it makes her look silly rather than having true knowledge or insight worthy of an immortal whose lived through a bigger genocide.

You didn't answer my question though: in an alliance I expect my allies to help me defend my home lands against an onslaught. It's not only Teldrassil and Darkshore, but also Ashenvale. What use is an alliance without allies? And what did Anduin gain by wasting Alliance lives in the Undercity/Ruins of Lordaeron? He could have committed those forces to Darkshore instead.

Not to mention, now that we have a truce: did the nelves get their lands back? No mention of that anywhere, hu?

It makes me sick to see Night Elf sentinels and archers standing idly in Boralus while they could be defending their homelands. Not to mention Shandris Feathermoon succumbing to that human potential..... that makes me want to puke at the screen.

Other than that: I don't believe you would act like you say you would. We are talking about genocide here. Not someone being a meanie. Anduin always seeks the moral high ground, but lets others pay the price for his actions. This is not wise. It's evil.

[Specialka]

You didn't answer my question though: in an alliance I expect my allies to help me defend my home lands against an onslaught. It's not only Teldrassil and Darkshore, but also Ashenvale. What use is an alliance without allies? And what did Anduin gain by wasting Alliance lives in the Undercity/Ruins of Lordaeron? He could have committed those forces to Darkshore instead.

Not to mention, now that we have a truce: did the nelves get their lands back? No mention of that anywhere, hu?

It makes me sick to see Night Elf sentinels and archers standing idly in Boralus while they could be defending their homelands. Not to mention Shandris Feathermoon succumbing to that human potential..... that makes me want to puke at the screen.

Other than that: I don't believe you would act like you say you would. We are talking about genocide here. Not someone being a meanie. Anduin always seeks the moral high ground, but lets others pay the price for his actions. This is not wise. It's evil.

Because now the Alliance have most of the eastern kingdom under control? (except Quel'thalas for now) And Kalimdor is a long way from the eastern kingdom, so they would be stretch too thin.

I am thinking a lot of ppl do not know a lot about strategy on these boards.