Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Frozenbro]

Overall, that's the issue: most mechanics checks nowadays are approaching or are literally binary, in that if you screw up a mechanic it's almost always a wipe instead of a setback that can be overcome. Layer on top DPS checks with the non-forgiving mechanics checks and you get some pretty nasty fights where you feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't stack DPS classes that do 10-20k more damage/healing than the pack *cough* spriests and hpallies *cough* and a healthy amount of immunities and DR cooldowns. I think this is where the disconnect with the community is right now: it's accepted that you need to change/alter your comp in order to tackle mythic content else you're not playing the game right, when the reality should be (and sometimes is) that encounters shouldn't feel like a joke stacking classes because of mechanics/disparity between classes. For example, Queen's Court and Za'qul on mythic with 4-5 spriests versus none are insanely different fights, and that's an issue of not only class balance but also mythic raid design.

Not gonna defend blizz on that part, they just cant put multi dot class on a sweet spot, they just cant find it, and the worst part is that you cant really have a raid full of ST oriented fights cause thats trash too, you gotta put that cleave/aoe fight in there for the sake of variability, and thats when the usual multi dot classes start being an issue again, shadow priest has been the problematic child along with aff lock for way too long, i dont even know what to do with them, at least class stacking wasnt that bad this tier, not on Zul lvl at least cause that was absolutely disgusting.

More on topic, people need to assume their part of the fault when doing these threads and not just directly saying *hurr durr blizz sucks mythic is too hard*, i can assure you none of them has ever asked themselves what they can improve, if they got worse or what part of their strat they can change, cause thats not how mid tier mythic guilds work, they just blame it on blizz just like this thread, the cherry on the cake is that most of them cant even get good parses on heroic, and if you cant get decent parses on heroic (when its just tunneling), then theres just no way you perform on mythic, thus we have the 3/8M guilds forever stuck on ashvane for example.

[asil]

Yeah, but you can't leave out random and still call it corruption.

Corruption is at its core still a system that is heavily reliant on RNG, which has still extreme variance on terms of value.
If you are class that doesn't want X, the Corruption effect that increases stat X will be terrible.

Not to mention that the corruption procs on some items are so damn high that they are utterly unuseable unless you cleanse them.


Corruption is a far shot from a system that is makes you say "oh, i got that item, that's an upgrade!".

Corruption is leaps and bounds superior to titanforging. It's far less RNG, and they're letting you put sockets on items.

This patch is everything I had hoped for.

- - - Updated - - -

Not gonna defend blizz on that part, they just cant put multi dot class on a sweet spot, they just cant find it, and the worst part is that you cant really have a raid full of ST oriented fights cause thats trash too, you gotta put that cleave/aoe fight in there for the sake of variability, and thats when the usual multi dot classes start being an issue again, shadow priest has been the problematic child along with aff lock for way too long, i dont even know what to do with them, at least class stacking wasnt that bad this tier, not on Zul lvl at least cause that was absolutely disgusting.

More on topic, people need to assume their part of the fault when doing these threads and not just directly saying *hurr durr blizz sucks mythic is too hard*, i can assure you none of them has ever asked themselves what they can improve, if they got worse or what part of their strat they can change, cause thats not how mid tier mythic guilds work, they just blame it on blizz just like this thread, the cherry on the cake is that most of them cant even get good parses on heroic, and if you cant get decent parses on heroic (when its just tunneling), then theres just no way you perform on mythic, thus we have the 3/8M guilds forever stuck on ashvane for example.

Aff is a fking single target funnel spec lol. Spriest is like the last true multi-target spec at this point and is also over-tuned single target for how good they are multi-target, which is why they're being nerfed.

Destro is obviously multi-target too, though.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Difference is, I don't fckin care what gear other people get for their runs in M+ or whatever. Why do you?

You make casual arguments in defense of titanforging, you get called a casual.

It's really not complicated

[Garymorilix]

You make casual arguments in defense of titanforging, you get called a casual.

It's really not complicated

That is not an answer to the question, nor a meaningful perspective regarding the conversation.

I'm glad you bless us with your intellect.

[Frozenbro]

You make casual arguments in defense of titanforging, you get called a casual.

It's really not complicated

I dont pug myself, but the removal of titanforging will make it easier for them to separate the good from the bad since people wont have "false ilvl" anymore, your ilvl will represent the content you tackle, which is good for pug life.

[Gorsameth]

'Rare' as a stat on an item pretty much means random.

Stop trying to back pedal. Those are your own words. You literally described Corruption as a stat as something you want, and now you try to twist it cuz "buh datz nuh wha I meant".
Be real bruv.

And corruption might be random, but so what. You can cleanse it and you get guaranteed corruption items in your weekly chest AND raid weapons.
Plus we don't know how rare a corruption proc will actually be once 8.3 hits. That's also a major detail you choose to ignore just so you can scream "RNG is baaad".

It's all a trade-off at the end. You either use a corrupted item and deal with the negatives or you cleanse it. You can even call it reforging at that point if you like that word better. Who cares.

horseshit.
Rare doesn't mean random.

[Kralljin]

'Rare' as a stat on an item pretty much means random.

No, it's pretty simple what sort of RNG i want.
I get the item or i don't.

This is the one RNG factor that's okay, no procs, nothing.

You literally described Corruption as a stat as something you want, and now you try to twist it cuz "buh datz nuh wha I meant".

It's just you reading that into that post, i'm not responsible for what you understand.
Because i avoided saying that this stat should be a proc on an existing item, no, this stat should be entirely seperated from the "regular" gear.

I know what i wrote.

It's all a trade-off at the end. You either use a corrupted item and deal with the negatives or you cleanse it. You can even call it reforging at that point if you like that word better. Who cares.

The entire "you can cleanse it" is stupid.

Corruption is a source of power, simply ignoring the entire system would be like ignoring any Titanforge procs on current items because i dislike titanforging.
That's not how it works.

Corruption is leaps and bounds superior to titanforging. It's far less RNG, and they're letting you put sockets on items.

Considering that the Crit damage affix is still pretty ahead of other corruption effects, i would be careful before praising it.
After all, the issue of titanforging is that items randomnly gained a lot of power, which is also a trait of the corruption system.

[Dizzeeyooo]

That is not an answer to the question, nor a meaningful perspective regarding the conversation.

I'm glad you bless us with your intellect.

An infinitesimally small number of people actually dislike titanforging because they hate other people getting gear.

Standard casual argument towards anyone who thinks titanforging is shit is to accuse them of obviously hating other people receiving gear.

2 + 2 equals?

[Frozenbro]

Considering that the Crit damage affix is still pretty ahead of other corruption effects, i would be careful before praising it.
After all, the issue of titanforging is that items randomnly gained a lot of power, which is also a trait of the corruption system.

Its still way better, at first sight it seems to be more rng, but if you search enough info its way less rng, the amount of corrupted items you will get is way higher, raid has easily some bis corrupted weapons with 0 rng involved cause they are fixed, weekly chest guarantees corruption on your items, no back drops cause legendary (thats 1 less slot to worry about) and the negative effects are honestly meme tier until 80 corruption, so titanforging is now where it belongs, in the trashcan.

[Garymorilix]

horseshit.
Rare doesn't mean random.

No, it's pretty simple what sort of RNG i want.
I get the item or i don't.

This is the one RNG factor that's okay, no procs, nothing.



It's just you reading that into that post, i'm not responsible for what you understand.
Because i avoided saying that this stat should be a proc on an existing item, no, this stat should be entirely seperated from the "regular" gear.

I know what i wrote.



The entire "you can cleanse it" is stupid.

Corruption is a source of power, simply ignoring the entire system would be like ignoring any Titanforge procs on current items because i dislike titanforging.
That's not how it works.



Considering that the Crit damage affix is still pretty ahead of other corruption effects, i would be careful before praising it.
After all, the issue of titanforging is that items randomnly gained a lot of power, which is also a trait of the corruption system.

Okay, how do you make a stat rare on items without making it random?

I'm listening cuz you are about to break the fourth dimension if you can answer that question.

You did describe Corruption, log in, paste your line into your guild chat and ask them if you defined Corruption. You'll be surprised.

Have you played with Corruption already? You know if it is worth it for you to keep rnning away from eyeballs and purple damage zones?
Ofc you don't. You are calling shit blindly at this point.

Corruption is far less RNG than titanforging. It's not even debatable.
But I guess hit capping is more interesting to you. Prime gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

An infinitesimally small number of people actually dislike titanforging because they hate other people getting gear.

Standard casual argument towards anyone who thinks titanforging is shit is to accuse them of obviously hating other people receiving gear.

2 + 2 equals?

Okay then, if you are not those people, why do you dislike it then? Why do you care?

Say something smart for once, even tho I like reporting for trolling.

[Frozenbro]

Okay then, if you are not those people, why do you dislike it then? Why do you care?

I wasnt asked but i hate titanforging too so ill bite.

- It diminishes the value of the hardest content since you can get same ilvl on 1 tier lower with a decent enough chance raid wise, corruption too but not to that extent.
- Split runs were a nightmare for any guild doing them thanks to titanforging cause random ilvl upgrades, corruption fixes some of it (unless you cant trade corrupted pieces, correct me on this).
- Ilvl inflation was way out of control, this affects pugs more than stablished guilds since finding proper players was a nightmare thanks to everyone wearing "false ilvl".
- Boring af compared to corruption, more ilvl? yay? trash, corruption has way more depth and customization than random most of the time unwanted ilvl upgrades.

I listed some there, i couldnt care less what gear people get, their logs will remain the same no matter the titanforges they get.

[Garymorilix]

I wasnt asked but i hate titanforging too so ill bite.

- It diminishes the value of the hardest content since you can get same ilvl on 1 tier lower with a decent enough chance raid wise, corruption too but not to that extent.
- Split runs were a nightmare for any guild doing them thanks to titanforging cause random ilvl upgrades, corruption fixes some of it (unless you cant trade corrupted pieces, correct me on this).
- Ilvl inflation was way out of control, this affects pugs more than stablished guilds since finding proper players was a nightmare thanks to everyone wearing "false ilvl".
- Boring af compared to corruption, more ilvl? yay? trash, corruption has way more depth and customization than random most of the time unwanted ilvl upgrades.

I listed some there, i couldnt care less what gear people get, their logs will remain the same no matter the titanforges they get.

I actually prefer corruption over titanforging too.

I wouldn't agree with points 1 and 2.
It can't diminish the hardest content because of 2 things:
It's fairly rare to have a 430 baseline item forge into a 445+.
Even if it does it won't give you credit for doing the hardest content, which is what the content is for. No-one will be considered a mythic raider just cuz they have the same ilvl.
This ties into the ilvl inflation thing, as it doesn't matter. It helps low-to mid tier guilds/people do one or two extra bosses but there are so many things you can actually filter players thru (most of them performance based) that ilvl is basically a non-factor.

But I agree, corruption is more interesting and less random so overall I'm glad with the swap.

[Kralljin]

Okay, how do you make a stat rare on items without making it random?

You introduce items with a lower drop chance that have superior / unique effects?
It's like there is suddenly only one level of RNG instead of four.

You know if it is worth it for you to keep rnning away from eyeballs and purple damage zones?

Do you seriously believe the only options are:
1.Equip every corruption piece and utterly ignore your total corruption
2.Ignore the system entirely

Like, this entire argument of "You didn't play with corruption!" is pointless, yeah, neither did you in any actual raiding enviroment.
No one outside of Blizzard did because they pulled the corruption vendor before testings, so all you could do is fiddle around with it in the outside world.

Because that's the real irony of playtestings things like corruption, Blizzard jabbers about "please give us feedback" only to pull then the option to easily test this in an actual enviroment.

Its still way better, at first sight it seems to be more rng, but if you search enough info its way less rng, the amount of corrupted items you will get is way higher, raid has easily some bis corrupted weapons with 0 rng involved cause they are fixed, weekly chest guarantees corruption on your items

You need to understand that an item doesn't automatically become an upgrade solely because it's corrupted.
There are shit corruption effects or effects that have far too much corruption.

A good corruption effect is worthless if it's tied to +50 Corruption, you can't use that one without either not using the piece until your corruption resistance is high enough (which means said item will rot in your bags until then) or unequipping enough corruption pieces (hopefully you have "clean" items as replacement) to make that one work.

Even if an item is corrupted, it still needs to go through at least two layers of RNG
1.It needs to get a good corruption affix
2.It needs to roll into a low corruption tier

If any of these two fail, it's entirely possible that the corruption effect is not worth it.

[Garymorilix]

You introduce items with a lower drop chance that have superior / unique effects?
It's like there is suddenly only one level of RNG instead of four.



Do you seriously believe the only options are:
1.Equip every corruption piece and utterly ignore your total corruption
2.Ignore the system entirely

Like, this entire argument of "You didn't play with corruption!" is pointless, yeah, neither did you in any actual raiding enviroment.
No one outside of Blizzard did because they pulled the corruption vendor before testings, so all you could do is fiddle around with it in the outside world.

Because that's the real irony of playtestings things like corruption, Blizzard jabbers about "please give us feedback" only to pull then the option to easily test this in an actual enviroment.

You mean, like weapons with guaranteed Corruption effects from the raid, especially the last 2 bosses that award higher ilvl also?

Mmmmmmm. Interesting idea. I wish blizz thought of that too...

I didn't play with corruption. But I don't pretend like I did.
I'm not the one claiming actual gameplay balance bullshit before I even played with it.
I'm pretty certain there will be outliers on both ends of the spectrum, as there always are.

The discussion is not about balance.

[Frozenbro]

A god corruption effect is worthless if it's tied to +50 Corruption, you can't use that one without either not using the piece until your corruption resistance is high enough (which means said item will rot in your bags until then) or unequipping enough corruption pieces (hopefully you have "clean" items as replacement) to make that one work.

Even if an item is corrupted, it still needs to go through at least two layers of RNG
1.It needs to get a good corruption affix
2.It needs to roll into a low corruption tier

This is how i know that you arent informed enough, wowhead is your friend, they were normalized, less mmochamp, more wowhead ty.

[Kralljin]

You mean, like weapons with guaranteed Corruption effects from the raid, especially the last 2 bosses that award higher ilvl also?

Considering they're still tied to the corruption system, it's entirely possible that you might not use them.
Because if you happen to get decent corruption affixes on other pieces, you can end up not using them.

Also, higher Ilvl from the Final Boss doesn't have anything to do with corruption, now does it?
Like, you are just throwing this fact in for some reason in hopes it somehow supports your case, but it doesn't because it doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.

I'm not the one claiming actual gameplay balance bullshit before I even played with it.
I'm pretty certain there will be outliers on both ends of the spectrum, as there always are.

The discussion is not about balance.

You are literally the first person to even use the word "balance" in this argument.

This is how i know that you arent informed enough, wowhead is your friend, they were normalized, less mmochamp, more wowhead ty.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=301897/...iers-avoidance

Three different tiers still exist, so that's one layer.
Different corruption affixes still exist, so that's another one.

[Frozenbro]

Three different tiers still exist, so that's one layer.
Different corruption affixes still exist, so that's another one.

You cant get rid of the fact that different corruption affixes exist, or the system would be as boring as classic gearing, oh wait.
The passive bonuses were normalized cause the scaling was dumb, and the affixes that have wonky values are the ones that have the potential to be op so them having high corruption is intentional, this remains to be seen, no word on their ppm, so you complaining about their rng makes no sense either, you should be complaining about how much ppm they have and if the corruption they have is justified or not.

[gallamann]

When I look to current raiding, what I see is the inevitable end of raiding. Blizzard needs to adapt or raiding dies because the dollars soon make no sense.

Participation rates need to go up dramatically for raiding to survive. Goals like world first race, CE, AoTC can still exist while at the same time driving participation rates up via gradual nerfing of content. So for example world first race has no nerfs and is done after 10 guilds kill Mythic last boss, CE is capped at first xxx guilds... Those achievement come with a reward (awesome transmog for example)

Problem is almost all the people capable of world first or CE are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, as such they have no desire to see it change.

Question already being asked at Blizzard is "Why spend millions of dollars on 0.7% of the subscribers, when could move that spend over to 70+% of subscribers"

Bottom line, raiding is dying and M+ will be the replacement.

[Kralljin]

You cant get rid of the fact that different corruption affixes exist, or the system would be as boring as classic gearing, oh wait.

Or we just get the choice of the affixes...?
Instead of "here's your corrupted item, hope you like, if not, fuck off".

t have the potential to be op so them having high corruption is intentional, this remains to be seen

The crit damage one has the same corruption values as bad ones (at least for dps) such as leech / avoidance.

you should be complaining about how much ppm they have and if the corruption they have is justified or not.

So, let me get this straight:

In order to be allowed to have a negative opinion on corruption, i first need to:
1.Get a corrupted item (with those procs) on PTR
2.Test it multiple hours in order to figure out their exact PPM
3.Then run sims on said Numbers.
4.Compare it to the other corruption effects (which some of them also happen to be proc based, so i'd have to repeat said process for thme as well)

Honest question: Did you put as much effort into your "i like Corruption" stance?

Because this is a two way street, you can't accuse me of putting no effort into forming my opinion, if you didn't do that either.

Question already being asked at Blizzard is "Why spend millions of dollars on 0.7% of the subscribers, when could move that spend over to 70+% of subscribers"

Following that logic:
Let's put millions into those "kill 10 boars" quest in each starting zone because 100% of all players experience that.

Thing is, if you want to design a game for the 100%, you basically have to rip out every aspect of gameplay based difficulty, because the floor difficulty in WoW has become a bottomless hole.
At which point, WoW will fail to live up to the "Gameplay first" Mantra of Blizzard and will be solely become a game for collectors.

[Nasuuna]

endgame has 1 ridiculous problem atm - one that blizzard clearly doesnt know how to solve.

after 15 years blizzard has and it will be my rough estimate arund 5-10k of extremly well skilled players - hell i wont be afraid to call them "overskilled" players - people who are extremly vocal on all possible forums and medias and who they cannot "shut up"

those are people who are ridiculiing everyone else with stupid comments like "git gud" etc

those people are also main reason why mythic is tuned that high and is way out of reach of anyone "average" who ever tries.

imo blizzard made mistake few years ago - instead introducing mythic they should have just made a hard cut off - in sense of "if you are that good its ok if you clear hardest mode in a week and have nothing to do" similiar thing should have had been done with mythic + - highest difficulties aka 10+ should have been aviable only on separate turnament realms so they dont influence majority of game.

now its just to late - most of "weaker" raiders lready quit over last 5-7 years and now there is no going back .

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thats a lie. simming didnt became widely popular and widely used untill like mid mop. hell i rememeb mop as a time when you still had no problem to get into mythic guilds capable of clearing a lot of bosses in hardest difficulty (1/2-3/4) without writing stupid application , making sims etc etc.

before that only the best of the best guilds on servers used it. nowadays everything is simmed including lfr -_-

mythic isn't out of reach of normal players because of the tuning. It's because blizzard wants you to farm an additional 15 hours a week for AP, reputation, essences, and dear god the consumable costs. All while the loot is roided up rng making proper progression feel like pushing a bolder uphill.