Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Kralljin]

It seems I am competing with guys at 415+ ilvl people for even something simple as mythic+0...... I don't understand why people of such high itemlevels are doing content that are well below their average itemlevel. But I am seeing it in all my dungeon runs. And there really is no reliable content left to get geared for mythic raids.

That is a common occurence during the late lifecycle of a tier.
Most are done with progression and are just there to fill up some missing pieces they want, being mostly overgeared just makes things go faster.

The only two options are:
1.Make your own group, despite it taking longer
2.Rely on Friends for help

However, trying to use a guild as stepping is absolutely the wrong way nowadays.
The best way to get into a mythic guild is to talk to leadership, present them what sort of player you are, convince them you are a decent player and get invited.
Then join up with some people gearing their alts via M+.

Trying to get to an entry Ilvl for Mythic EP is a waste of time, 8.3 is around the corner and will basically drop Normal / Heroic EP onto your head rather easily.

No decent Mythic guild looks at the gear of people, all they care about is whether you are a decent player and have the credentials to proof it.

[spalernTJ]

Listen, Mythic is obviously way too hard for the vast majority of players in World of Warcraft. Therefore, I think it should straight out be removed so we only have LFR, Normal and Heroic. Way more people can do heroic than Mythic, so that makes it a lot more fun. Honestly, let's just remove heroic and normal at the same time, if we have one, unified difficulty anyone could do, then everyone would be happy right?

At the same time, can we just remove half the mechanics of existing bosses too? LFR might still be too difficult if there's more than one mechanic involved. All other players have to cater to my level of skill, I should not strive to get better.

[M00nty]

How is this possible? We killed Azshara over 3 months ago. Even if we raided 2 days we would have killed it months ago.

Sorry, that it took so long; holidays 'n stuff.

Generally speaking if you're only raiding 2 days, you'll spend a lot more of your time reclearing (relatively speaking), especially if you're at least somewhat trying to min/max loot across your roster, even if you 1-shot everything.

More specifically: I'm not saying, that if we raided 3 days, that we'd magically jump up 1000 world rankings, just that we probably would have killed Azshara by now or were at least very close to a kill, if we had a 3rd raid day.
Our problems this tier were roster issues, pretty sizeable skill disparity within our roster and Orgozoa rekills.
We are one of the very few guilds, that only ever used 2 tanks (brw / bdk) and 4 healers on Orgozoa, which makes the fight a fkng nailbiter every time you have to kill her on farm, because every small mistake made by one of your tanks is going to wipe you. This issue got exaggerated by the roster issues & the skill disparity if for whatever reason, more than 2 key players couldn't make it to the raid. That's the reason, why we are where we are, while having a decent pullcount to first kill ratio.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with not getting CE. (A kill is just unrealistic at this point, if you've got 2ish weeks left and you're still progressing p3 & havn't even seen p4)
I don't think mythic is too hard - If you want a participation trophy, go and get AotC.

[potis]

How is my post wrong? I only stated objectively what I experienced and did not speculate on why I am seeing people doing low ilvl content. I do however find this to be an issue. I also think the 99% number is a bit of bullshit and quite elitist to be fair...

However as I mentioned, introducing itemlevel caps to M+ would help these masses of players who are behind this "curve" you speak of. They should then be able to get in ilvl appropriate content to get appropriate ilvl gear or be forced to improve themselves to get through this content. It might even kill off the Mythic+ boost groups which is also awful honestly.

And i replied to that specifically.

The 99%, and i aint elitist of exaggerating, requires to overgear the content to do them, sure, lets make it 95% of active players and not 99% of expansion hoppers.

Adding caps or templates, will only cause two things:

1)The 1% wont give a fuck as they already do because anything up to +15-17 is considered joke and irrelevant.

2)The 99% wont be able to be carried by gear and/or by the 1% and they will do what they do best, whine and quit, of course they wont quit instantly, they will try 1-2 times, fail, blame something towards Blizzard like their class or AP farming or whatever scapegoat and then they will quit.

This is being repeated for years and years and was stated by Blizzard themselves, when they try to force people to learn to play, they rather quit.

[Mister Cheese]

My guild just imploded the second week of december. All of the officers decided they wanted to quit and join a CE guild while we were progging on azshara. Sad state of affairs really since I've been in the guild for several years and this has happened several times around the end of a tier. Burnout is a real issue and it causes guilds to fall apart and have to rebuild constantly if they aren't pushing fast enough.

[Celestraza]

That is a common occurence during the late lifecycle of a tier.
Most are done with progression and are just there to fill up some missing pieces they want, being mostly overgeared just makes things go faster.

The only two options are:
1.Make your own group, despite it taking longer
2.Rely on Friends for help

However, trying to use a guild as stepping is absolutely the wrong way nowadays.
The best way to get into a mythic guild is to talk to leadership, present them what sort of player you are, convince them you are a decent player and get invited.
Then join up with some people gearing their alts via M+.

Trying to get to an entry Ilvl for Mythic EP is a waste of time, 8.3 is around the corner and will basically drop Normal / Heroic EP onto your head rather easily.

No decent Mythic guild looks at the gear of people, all they care about is whether you are a decent player and have the credentials to proof it.

Oh I am not aiming for Mythic EP. Just curious what is going on considering I see at least 10 dead mythic raiding guilds on my old realm alone (all top 1000) and I know from talking with friends playing retail many more are struggling like never before. Hence this thread caught my curiosity. Something seems wrong and a lot of mythic raiders are quitting resulting in a lot of mythic guild deaths or struggles with volatile rosters. Which is especially curious since with the introduction of Personal Loot guild management should be a lot easier than it used to be and it also removed a big barrier for newer players to try out mythic raiding. It also removed the nearly mandatory alt for split runs for a lot of guilds.

Just looking at the statistics (there are still 2 weeks left so let's assume about 1000 will kill Azshara mythic) but there seems to be a 1/3 drop off of mythic guilds killing the last boss before the next raid release (Ghuun/Jaina were at a stable 1500ish). So what happened between Ghuun/Jaina and Azshara that caused 1/3 of the mythic guilds to be unable to clear mythic content like they usually do?

I personally doubt it is something like boredom otherwise you'd at least see some drop off between Ghuun and Jaina, but there isn't one. Maybe players got burned out from all the grinding? Maybe classic pulled away a lot of mythic raiders? I don't know honestly, maybe we should make a poll. xD

[Accendor]

Sorry, that it took so long; holidays 'n stuff.

Generally speaking if you're only raiding 2 days, you'll spend a lot more of your time reclearing (relatively speaking), especially if you're at least somewhat trying to min/max loot across your roster, even if you 1-shot everything.

More specifically: I'm not saying, that if we raided 3 days, that we'd magically jump up 1000 world rankings, just that we probably would have killed Azshara by now or were at least very close to a kill, if we had a 3rd raid day.
Our problems this tier were roster issues, pretty sizeable skill disparity within our roster and Orgozoa rekills.
We are one of the very few guilds, that only ever used 2 tanks (brw / bdk) and 4 healers on Orgozoa, which makes the fight a fkng nailbiter every time you have to kill her on farm, because every small mistake made by one of your tanks is going to wipe you. This issue got exaggerated by the roster issues & the skill disparity if for whatever reason, more than 2 key players couldn't make it to the raid. That's the reason, why we are where we are, while having a decent pullcount to first kill ratio.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with not getting CE. (A kill is just unrealistic at this point, if you've got 2ish weeks left and you're still progressing p3 & havn't even seen p4)
I don't think mythic is too hard - If you want a participation trophy, go and get AotC.

There are so many guilds out there that get Aotc in the first ir second ID but don't get CE. This alone shows that the tuning is completely off. If you steamroll through HC, why dies mythic have to feel/be impossible?
I understand there has to ve a challwnge, I am all up for the challenge myself, but that doesn't mean that the current tuning is fine.

[M00nty]

There are so many guilds out there that get Aotc in the first ir second ID but don't get CE. This alone shows that the tuning is completely off. If you steamroll through HC, why dies mythic have to feel/be impossible?
I understand there has to ve a challwnge, I am all up for the challenge myself, but that doesn't mean that the current tuning is fine.

HC became too easy.
It's not the mythic tuning, that is completely off, it's the HC tuning and the rewards you get out of HC.

Even very average HC guilds could zerg Azshara in week 3. By zerg I mean play until p3 and than ignore each and every mechanic and just burn her down.
That shouldn't be possible. If you actually had to play the spears, the console & the soaks properly throughout the fight a lot of those 3/8 "mythic guilds" would've probably had a very different and more meaningful heroic progression experience.


That being said, you can't make heroic harder while not offer appropriate rewards.
They have to rework their whole reward structure, because it's total out of whack right now due to m+.

[Frozenbro]

The only people who hate on "raid loggers" are people who have low skill but lots of time on their hands and think good game design is gating content behind obnoxious grinds so they can belong to the elite club of "I play video games 40h a week therefore I'm good".

I hate them cause during the early progressiong they are a detriment, they come to the raid undergeared compared to non raid loggers, therefore they are a burden dps wise most of the time and the worst part is that they expect to get gear from the first few clears of the raid, and guess what, they actually get it since they are the "undergeared" burden of the raid, while you dont get shit cause you are already partially geared, basically the non raid loggers end up gearing the lazy raid loggers, so i despise them.

- - - Updated - - -

I think a big issue is the gear progression not working at all. Getting to 400ilvl was a breeze with dailies and benthic gear. However I now hit a brick wall. I have huge issues getting into content of my own itemlevel. I even struggle to get into Mythic+0 (which drops 400ilvl gear) and normal raids. It seems I am competing with guys at 415+ ilvl people for even something simple as mythic+0...... I don't understand why people of such high itemlevels are doing content that are well below their average itemlevel. But I am seeing it in all my dungeon runs. And there really is no reliable content left to get geared for mythic raids.

Thats thanks to ilvl inflation which is caused by the beloved titanforging, in 8.3 it wont be that bad cause that trash is gone, there will be ilvl inflation ofc cause the community likes to increase the requirements as patch goes on, but not as bad as of now.

[Gorsameth]

I hate them cause during the early progressiong they are a detriment, they come to the raid undergeared compared to non raid loggers, therefore they are a burden dps wise most of the time and the worst part is that they expect to get gear from the first few clears of the raid, and guess what, they actually get it since they are the "undergeared" burden of the raid, while you dont get shit cause you are already partially geared, basically the non raid loggers end up gearing the lazy raid loggers, so i despise them.

Those people exist sure, and a decent guild would seek to weed them out. What I and I assume many others here are talking about in regards to raid logging is putting in the time to gear up when a new patch/raid comes out and then after this reduce the time we play WoW to do other things once out of raid progression is done. Which is where the problem with Legion/BfA show up, because out of raid progression takes a LOT longer or doesn't end at all.

I have no problem putting in a bunch of hours every day for 2-3 weeks. But if I have to do it for months its no longer a game to play for fun, its a job.

[Tsamane]

I think its more so P1 have been to much of the fight and annoying and gear hasnt been worth it so people dont care about doing the last boss. Get board cause they are done, and quit till 8.3

[Frozenbro]

I have no problem putting in a bunch of hours every day for 2-3 weeks. But if I have to do it for months its no longer a game to play for fun, its a job.

This is fine, i do it myself, the amount of time i put into the game after the first few weeks goes down drastically, but people overexaggerating the amount of grind you need to do makes me believe they want to be raid loggers from day 1 of the patch and thats the people i despise with my soul.

[Alydael]

There are so many guilds out there that get Aotc in the first ir second ID but don't get CE. This alone shows that the tuning is completely off. If you steamroll through HC, why dies mythic have to feel/be impossible?
I understand there has to ve a challwnge, I am all up for the challenge myself, but that doesn't mean that the current tuning is fine.

I think there is a huge leap from heroic to mythic; much greater than normal to heroic. The other problems guilds face with mythic is the 20 person limit. Remember, normal and heroic are flex. What do you do if you are running 27 or 17? That also causes shake up in guilds.

I don't think it is the difficulty so much that stops guilds from going mythic, its all the other stuff around it.

For most people (other people > the game, not everyone feels this way judging by this thread- but you do you). Most guild leaders/ officers don't want to piss a whole bunch of people and cause discord in their guild just to jump up to mythic, so they either- disband or quit the guild and join someone else's mythic raid team to avoid the whole problem (probably most do this as it is the "easy way out" so to speak) or they just don't raid mythic.

My team always clears heroic but then we try mythic. People that can't come (20 limit) they get all pissed and it causes issues. Remember these aren't just raiders- they are guildies and friends. Then we get one or two players that go all elitist (now that they raided mythic once or twice) and complain that we aren't progressing fast enough, that we should just get rid of a bunch of people we know for years- just so we can kill this boss in this tier..........

Who has time and patience for all that nonsense? It's honestly not worth it. Truthfully, I don't think Mythic raiding is really good for this game. I don't think they should take it out or anything but it does seem to go against the general "spirit" of the game (community, friends, guildies). I think M+ has been good for the game but is now becoming somewhat like Mythic raiding (judging by this thread). the one thing that save M+ though is that it only takes 5 people, not 20. Lot easier to fill the group/ make a team. Plus it has varying difficulty from +0 to + (not sure how high it goes), so you can squeeze players of different abilities in.

I think this is the classic problem a lot of video games have. You want the content to be difficult enough that it is a challenge and engaging but you don't want it to become too frustrating or elitist. You also have the problem of players running these groups and blizz can't really control their behavior. (Good luck on those).

I think the best way to handle this is to make "buffs" you can activate in the raid (like the yogg fight) that help you. For each buff you activate at the the start of the fight, the gear dropped will be 5 ilevels less. This way- when you are struggling too hard on the boss- people are getting frustrated and nasty, just activate the buff, down it- grab some gear, move on and [hopefully] you will beat it without the buff next week.

[netherflame]

So what you're saying is that every single player and guild is entitled to be able to clear the most difficult content in the game.

No thanks

Nobody said that, but at the rate that guilds and players are quitting its not smart to have content that requires near perfect play while giving only minimally improved rewards.

[Frozenbro]

My team always clears heroic but then we try mythic. People that can't come (20 limit) they get all pissed and it causes issues. Remember these aren't just raiders- they are guildies and friends. Then we get one or two players that go all elitist (now that they raided mythic once or twice) and complain that we aren't progressing fast enough, that we should just get rid of a bunch of people we know for years- just so we can kill this boss in this tier..........

Who has time and patience for all that nonsense? It's honestly not worth it. Truthfully, I don't think Mythic raiding is really good for this game. I don't think they should take it out or anything but it does seem to go against the general "spirit" of the game (community, friends, guildies).

Thats no issue, you think proper mythic guilds have only 20 players? thats stupid, the people you speak of arent potential mythic raiders at all, theres something called "the bench", if you get mad by being benched for a boss then you were never a proper mythic raider, just an entitled little kid who cant grasp that guild progress > your character.

[Alydael]

Thats no issue, you think proper mythic guilds have only 20 players? thats stupid, the people you speak of arent potential mythic raiders at all, theres something called "the bench", if you get mad by being benched for a boss then you were never a proper mythic raider, just an entitled little kid who cant grasp that guild progress > your character.

The guild I'm in always puts people > the game (or progress). I'm not the GM, nor do I want to be a GM or raid lead- its not my rule, but I agree with it. I'm not willing to cause static withe people I've known for years over downing a current tier raid boss in Mythic (or even a full mythic clear). Its just not that important to me, so I guess I'm not a "mythic raider," but I'm fine with that.

We aren't the only guild that struggled meeting the exactly 20 requirement, when they made it. Just look at the completion numbers on what was "Mythic" raiding before they changed the name. Once they set it to strict 20 it went way down. Also, Blizz said they were setting it to twenty so they could design interesting mechanics that could only be countered by specific class abilities, to make it more interesting. That never materialized either, did it? It was laziness- its a lot easier to balance for just twenty than for flex.
I liked it when it was flex. People would debate if the boss was harder with 10 or 25...... I remember Sarth 3d with ten was considered the toughest fight in that tier. All stuff like that makes it interesting and engaging. People talk about it and are more likely to try it. Take all that stuff away and you get less when you make less.

I still think my buff idea would help Blizz get more engagement in mythic. They have to do something to encourage more raiding- the completion numbers are down across all difficulties, so its not just a Mythic or M+ issue really. They might need to change it up a little. The basic design of dungeons or raids hasn't changed in years, people might be getting a bit bored of it after 15 years....... Off the top of my head I can think of a few ways to make it more interesting, so I'm sure Blizz should be able to come up with something.

[Kralljin]

Something seems wrong and a lot of mythic raiders are quitting resulting in a lot of mythic guild deaths or struggles with volatile rosters.

If i were to guess, then it's the fact that, among many other things, mythic raiding is just not worth the effort anymore, at least to some people.

If you go back even to like WoD, Archimonde had loot that was the shit, awesome trinkets, amazing weapons, etc..
Now compare that to Azshara, most of her loot is nothing special, those "Storm of the eternal" items just sucked, Blizzard didn't even bother to buff those effects.

Then you are left with the Trinket, which is only decent for some specs and the Caster Staff, the only legitimate decent item on the loot table.

Archimonde did have something for literally every class or spec, Azshara is an uninteresting boss in terms of loot overall by comparison.

A lot of guilds require like 200-300 wipes to kill that boss, and what they get out of it, besides the rather uninteresting loot?
An Achievement and some visual effect for an essence they might not even use.
That's it.

On top of that, BfA has really opened my eyes to another problem:
WoW has become a seasonal game, each major patch there is basically a gear reset and you can even surpass the Mythic Ilvl from previous tier by spamming M+.
People that are competent enough to raid Mythic are competent enough to farm M+10 (or higher).

People might put up with that during the first tier, maybe the second, but at some point, getting barely anything good out of killing & farming a final boss (which is, even in nerfed state, still quite an achievement), only to realize that the little that you've earned becomes meaningless within the next patch is a motivation killer (especially if that patch is only like 1-2 months away).
And not just, "Oh, it's useless as soon you get to farm the highest difficulty of the next tier" but rather "Patch is out, M+10 now gives loot that's 15 Ilvl above that".

Difficulty could be a source of that drop, without question, but it's also increasingly obvious that Blizzard has removed a lot of incentives from mythic raiding, especially putting in the effort to kill the final boss.
I am rather curious how many (mythic) guilds in BfA just didn't bother to kill the final boss and they went like "eh, fuck it, too much effort because the next tier is around the corner".
Even a lot of hardcore guilds skipped on farming Jaina / G'huun because they didn't viewed it as being worth their time to re kill those bosses.

Which is especially curious since with the introduction of Personal Loot guild management should be a lot easier than it used to be and it also removed a big barrier for newer players to try out mythic raiding. It also removed the nearly mandatory alt for split runs for a lot of guilds.

It's a controversial topic, but in my opinion, it probably drove as many people away from mythic raiding as it attracted.
From my experience, attempting to cater to an audience that keeps complaining "Oh, i would engage in X if it weren't for Y" is not a wise decision.
Once you removed Y, they just move onto the next excuse not to engage in this activity, now Z is suddenly the reason they don't engage in X.


Example, PvP.
Blizzard tried with each expansion to make PvP more accessible, made PvP gearing easier and easier until they decided to ditch PvP gear as a whole and introduced templates in Legion.
Result was a massive drop in Participation, making things more accessible is not inheritely a bad move but if you make these decisions at the expense of the audience that currently engages in this activity, it will rarely pay off.

Mythic player aren't normal mode raiders that are more likely to look over certain people not pulling their weight, simply taking away the power to award loot based on its usefulnes or performance doesn't necessarily go too well with this crowd.

Taking this lesson, also explains why touching the gearing aspect would be most likely a touch of death, WoW is still an RPG, power progression is core here.
If you remove that from mythic raiding, you are repeating the same mistake the devs did in Legion with PvP.

[Marrilaife]

I hate them cause during the early progressiong they are a detriment, they come to the raid undergeared compared to non raid loggers, therefore they are a burden dps wise most of the time and the worst part is that they expect to get gear from the first few clears of the raid, and guess what, they actually get it since they are the "undergeared" burden of the raid, while you dont get shit cause you are already partially geared, basically the non raid loggers end up gearing the lazy raid loggers, so i despise them.

That wasn't a problem when majority of gear came from the raid itself and not from grinding m+ or w/e else. This exactly means that people who nolife wow can outgear the ones who don't, and then resent them for it. Which creates exactly the drama you describe.

it removes any sense from a community feeling and makes everybody replaceable - and I dont like that.

Err, what, spending 10-15h a week with the same people week after week month after month is not enough for you to get to know them and form a community? I'd bet majority of people see their irl friends less than that, only people you'd interact for longer are people you live with (so probably closest family) and co-workers if you don't have a solo job.

Plus making everyone grind stuff won't make people suddenly interact with each other. Those who are chatty will talk on discord and other channels of communication whether they're in game or not. People who are shy and withdrawn, you can make them do 20 wqs daily, islands, w/e else and they still won't say a word, they're just online but basically a "ghost".

[Frozenbro]

The guild I'm in always puts people > the game (or progress). I'm not the GM, nor do I want to be a GM or raid lead- its not my rule, but I agree with it. I'm not willing to cause static withe people I've known for years over downing a current tier raid boss in Mythic (or even a full mythic clear). Its just not that important to me, so I guess I'm not a "mythic raider," but I'm fine with that.

That shows the difference between grown up and kids, grown ups are able to take the bench or even bench themselves when they know their perfomance/class is a detriment for the encounter so the group as a whole can progress and achieve stuff, kids go WAWAWA I DONT WANT THE BENCH FUCK YOU, if you ask me i prefer to cater to grown ups.

- - - Updated - - -

That wasn't a problem when majority of gear came from the raid itself and not from grinding m+ or w/e else. This exactly means that people who nolife wow can outgear the ones who don't, and then resent them for it. Which creates exactly the drama you describe.

Its not a matter of only outgearing, thats why i said "most of the time", i know a couple raid loggers that can have that privilege cause they are skilled enough to do excellent despite the ilvl diff, BUT most of the time raid loggers just blow perfomance wise, and blame the grind for their awful gameplay, a couple ilvl diff wont make you go from green parses to orange, thats just hilarious, they are plain horrible.

[kamuimac]

My guild just imploded the second week of december. All of the officers decided they wanted to quit and join a CE guild while we were progging on azshara. Sad state of affairs really since I've been in the guild for several years and this has happened several times around the end of a tier. Burnout is a real issue and it causes guilds to fall apart and have to rebuild constantly if they aren't pushing fast enough.

Burnout was always an issue.

it was an issue back in classic , it was an issue in every single expansion before.

everytone eventually hit some wall that breaks them .

are there some people out there who raid non stop for past10 years ? sure

but from my experience most hit that wall somewhere between 1-2 years of raiding hardmodes non stop .

first stage is - "this guild clearly sucks im gonna jump to better progressed one because its others fault we cannot progress "

2nd stage is - "this guild cannot kill this boss because its overtuned by blizzard so it stops raiding but im gonan try another guild "

stage 3 is - " mythic raiding is exhausting , bosses are overtuned by blizzard and i dont have time to nolife game like better progressed guilds so ill stop raiding and go casual"

seen this in in cata , seen this in mop , seen this in wod and the same is happening in bfa.