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  1. #221
    Sylvanas suffocates every little nice theme that can exist by just existing.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    >Points to Mac'aree as if it's development for Alleria - Oops, it's actually just her learning her Sue powers. It's the end of her 'journey', don't you remember? There's no development here. She doesn't grow, she's literally handed powers after she fights a void elemental. Calling it dangerous doesn't make it so, and they most certainly didn't make it appear so considering she succeeded on her first try.

    >Three Sisters comic shows... What, exactly? That Alleria wants to kill her sister for being a psychopath, but doesn't, just like every single other person on Azeroth? That comic was ENTIRELY a Sylvanas story. Alleria got nothing out of it.

    >Hour-long audio drama which told us what, exactly? (No seriously. You're going to have to explain this one, I'm not sitting through an hour of dialogue to hear Alleria repeat more about how the Void is the most dangerous force and she's the only one (and also her entire race of elves) that can control it again. It was suffering enough to listen to that on Mac'aree.

    Her 'character' is that she wants to be home but she is dangerous to her home. This is literally a plot device, not a story. She has no story to tell, because Quel'thalas isn't going to the Alliance so long as factions exist. The only story available to her is:
    a) Going mad to the Void. Which has been so obvious of a plot point that they should have started with this and saved us the headache.
    b) Corrupting Quel'thalas.

    She can literally go nowhere else.
    We literally see her grow and complete her training under the teachings of the Locus-Walker. In the final fight against the Dark Naaru she is trying hard to subdue her.

    Also, she is not a Mary Sue because we know exactly how she got her powers and how she developed them. Furthermore, those powers have a drawback on her because she can no longer even touch her husband and risks succumbing to the whispers.

    Three Sisters comic is character development for Alleria because she comes to terms with the fact that her sister is gone, replaced by what she deems is just a monster. This also highlights the hypocrisy of Alleria, because she fails to understand that she herself has become a shadowy abomination. It was not Sylvanas story, it was the story of all three sisters, both Alleria and Vereesa also received character development. Alleria after that reunion would drop any hope of rekindling her relationship with Sylvanas, so much so that at the Battle of Lordaeron she just wants her dead.

    Did you even watch that audio drama? It tells you how she was stranded, how she got Void powers in the first place, how she met Locus-Walker, why she was in conflict with the Prime Naaru, what the people of her "crew" (i.e. Turalyon, Lothraxion…) think of her powers, etc.

    Her character is that she wants to remain loyal to Silvermoon but believes they made a mistake by joining the Horde. She was not there to see the good actions the Horde did and must rely on Vereesa as her only source, who is obviously biased. At the same time she cannot let go of the Alliance because that is where the rest of her family is. She is somewhat blinded by her ideals, because she wants Silvermoon to rejoin the Alliance, where she thinks it belongs, but ignores the rivalry that exists between these two.

    There are several stories available to her. She can continue to train Umbric and the Ren'dorei and lead the vanguard against the Void Lords, trying valiantly to avoid the vision of doom in which she succumbs to the whispers, and ultimately managing to avoid it. This would reinforce a message already given in Legion, and that is that visions are not set in stone, and that mortals should never let fate dictate their lives. Or she could go the other way and ultimately succumb to the whispers should someone like Arator die, in which she came she'd lose one of the few people who anchor her to sanity. It would be brilliant if it was Alleria who ultimately ends up killing Arator; perhaps she was not able to properly control her massive void powers and Arator got killed by friendly fire. This would be a tragic turning point for Alleria and a convincing reason for her to lose any hope. This could also create a moral dilemma for Turalyon, because he would be forced to fight Alleria. So Alleria could die as a tragic villain who, only at the end, realizes that she should have never lost track of who she was: someone who does not surrender to any power, someone who always keeps fighting no matter the odds. Finally, Alleria could possibly play a role in Sylvanas' downfall in Shadowlands, since as I already said she wants her dead; but it will probably not be so easy for her, because she would still have to fight what was once her little sister, and these family bonds just cannot be erased by anything.

    But I realize there is no point arguing with someone who claims Alleria has no character when they cannot even stand hearing her voice.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 12:54 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I didn't say I couldn't stand to hear her voice. I said I couldn't stand to hear her repeat how dangerous the void is and how she's the only one (while conveniently again forgetting that there is an entire race of elves that now share her predicament) who can control it - Yet willingly and constantly wields it as a weapon.

    But it's these kinds of intentional misunderstandings that prevent meaningful dialogue beyond you repeating the same stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with Alleria, and instead, further characterizes THOSE AROUND HER while leaving her exactly in the same fucking spot. It's that that keeps these replies coming.

    So I mean, feel free to drop out of the conversation, but you certainly haven't done anything towards convincing anyone that your obsession with her is anything beyond just that.
    So basically you are judging a book by the cover, and you are also claiming something about a character whose backstory you have decided to completely ignore. Of course she has no backstory when you ignore the fucking 1-hour long material that explains all there is to know about her backstory before Legion.

    Also she has better mastery over the void than Umbric and the Ren'dorei, so much so that only she is capable of maintaining her high elf form. And yes, as I said she knows the void is dangerous, and she has also seen a vision in which she goes mad and tries to force the void down everyone's throat, but nonetheless she continues to gamble with this powers because she things the void is the best weapon you could use against the coming shadow. Also because mortals should have the guts to not bend just because some petty little vision says they're going to die.

    I didn't misunderstand anything mate, if anything it's you who completely misunderstood Alleria if you think she's just a plot device. But it's fine, after all you yourself admitted you skipped every single piece of lore about her since her reintroduction in 2017.

    Also, lmao, how do my suggestions characterize those around her and not her? Besides, I don't need to convince anyone. I know I am right, and I know you are wrong, because you know nothing about the character, as you yourself basically said. You can decide to remain unconvinced, it doesn't change the fact you're wrong when you say she's just a plot device with no character and no future.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 09:48 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  4. #224
    "Your Elven Waifu is taking the spotlight from MY ELVEN WAIFU!! STOP IT!!11"

    Shave the neckbeards, please.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Odintdk View Post
    "Your Elven Waifu is taking the spotlight from MY ELVEN WAIFU!! STOP IT!!11"

    Shave the neckbeards, please.
    "But it just grows back, why should I bother!"

  6. #226
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    I mean, Sylvanas is the only reason Alleria is a thing or relevant again, how she is suffocating her again?

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    We literally see her grow and complete her training under the teachings of the Locus-Walker. In the final fight against the Dark Naaru she is trying hard to subdue her.
    That's growth? She meets her old teacher and we see her succeed. As players we have no actual knowledge of what her training even consisted of. The Locust-Walker says that Alleria was his best student, too. Perhaps it's just a limitation of WoW as a game, but her struggles while trying to subdue the dark Naaru are not all that significant. If anything it's very cliché. She never seemed to lose control of herself at any point, she just had some doubts.

    I don't think that the straight-A student acing the final exam would really count as growth for most people. There are so many ways the writers could have made this more interesting. Instead it was a b-plot to another b-plot.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Archibalde View Post
    That's growth? She meets her old teacher and we see her succeed. As players we have no actual knowledge of what her training even consisted of. The Locust-Walker says that Alleria was his best student, too. Perhaps it's just a limitation of WoW as a game, but her struggles while trying to subdue the dark Naaru are not all that significant. If anything it's very cliché. She never seemed to lose control of herself at any point, she just had some doubts.

    I don't think that the straight-A student acing the final exam would really count as growth for most people. There are so many ways the writers could have made this more interesting. Instead it was a b-plot to another b-plot.
    Yes, that is growth, because she literally turns into a void elf and is forced to cope with her newfound powers, as she explains in the dialogue following up the dungeon. And since she became a void elf and the whispers became much stronger, she was forced to become much more calm and focused, and even pondered how her new transformation could raise some doubts about her true allegiances.

    Also yes, she never lost control of herself... that's kind of the point... if you lose yourself to the Void you're done, you don't exactly get to turn back.

    Finally, Alleria was far from being a straight-A student. In the audio drama she actually pissed off the Locus-Walker once because she wanted to end the training to save Turalyon's life and even attacked Locus-Walker, with the latter even calling her just a coward and a child, and only letting her go because he was optimistic about her destiny. So no, she's not some straight A student who had a perfect relationship with her tutor, she was actually a very rebellious student, which is why it is somewhat touching that in the end she came to trust in Locus-Walker's teachings and that is what allowed her to defy the shadows' whispers.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 12:14 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  9. #229
    Isn't Sylvanas suffocating EVERYONE'S progress?

    Just a thought.


  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    In the audio drama she actually pissed off the Locus-Walker once because she wanted to end the training to save Turalyon's life and even attacked Locus-Walker, with the latter even calling her just a coward and a child, and only letting her go because he was optimistic about her destiny.
    If you can't see why that makes her a mary-sue then everybody in this thread is just wasting their time.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Odintdk View Post
    "Your Elven Waifu is taking the spotlight from MY ELVEN WAIFU!! STOP IT!!11"

    Shave the neckbeards, please.
    That made me laugh. Good one.

    Regarding the OP: isn't that the pain with the BFA story in general? Every other lore character being degraded to being a plot device for the Sylvanas story? Hell, the entire Alliance is nothing but a plot device for the Horde at this stage.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2020-01-01 at 12:36 PM. Reason: added more thoughts


  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Zora-Prime View Post
    If you can't see why that makes her a mary-sue then everybody in this thread is just wasting their time.
    I hate it when people throw blatantly sexists terms like "Mary Sue" without even having a clue about what they actually mean. Just because a teacher has hopes for the student doesn't mean the student is a Mary Sue, otherwise we're all Mary Sues in real life, because any teacher would be optimistic about the future of their students and wants them to succeed in life, no matter how rebellious they might be.

    But sure, whatever you say champ. I didn't know you were elected as "Spokesman of the Alleria thread on the Lore forum of MMO-Champion", I hope you were given a badge too.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #233
    Mary Sue is not a sexist term, though. It's applied to female and male characters.


  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    I hate it when people throw blatantly sexists terms like "Mary Sue" without even having a clue about what they actually mean. Just because a teacher has hopes for the student doesn't mean the student is a Mary Sue, otherwise we're all Mary Sues in real life, because any teacher would be optimistic about the future of their students and wants them to succeed in life, no matter how rebellious they might be.

    But sure, whatever you say champ. I didn't know you were elected as "Spokesman of the Alleria thread on the Lore forum of MMO-Champion", I hope you were given a badge too.
    I know what a Mary-Sue character entails. At least more than you do.
    Alleria literally checks all the marks of what makes a character a Mary-Sue.

    Pretty, Loved by all, Protagonist/Close to the protagonist, Destined, Given vast powers, Flawless (she used to excessively vengeful but she doesn't even have that anymore).

    The character is wack.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It does, actually. I could say "It'd be obvious if you paid attention" but instead, I'll explain:

    If I told you Sylvanas was a god, you'd call me stupid. Because she's obviously not right this second. But if tomorrow, Blizzard released a story making Sylvanas a god, it'd now be canon and a factual statement, even if the explanation for how she got there makes no sense.

    That's Alleria. Alleria's story didn't exist, then Blizzard did nothing but tell us exactly what happened to her. There is no development. She didn't grow into the character she is. That's not character development. It's not story telling. It's stating a fact and expecting it to be believed, even if it makes no sense. That's why Alleria isn't a character - She's a plot device. She exists only to further the story and has absolutely no character to her whatsoever.
    Well that's the whole point of this topic really, to show a character growing you need to spend time with her, but if you're so focused on developing Mary SUe Sylvanas, you don't really get tos ee Alleria go.

    Now Alleria has changed or developed, however that all came in one download via the audio drama, quest lines in Mac'aree and the 3 sisters. Changes as long as they're not 180s are growth. Some people think that unless a character significantly changes (such as alignement from good to evil or vice versa, they haven't grown) That's not really true though is it.. Let's be honest.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Zora-Prime View Post
    Pretty, Loved by all, Protagonist/Close to the protagonist, Destined, Given vast powers, Flawless (she used to excessively vengeful but she doesn't even have that anymore).
    Mate, she is an elf, literally every elf in this setting is hot.

    She is not loved by all, lmao, the Horde wants her dead and she and the Ren'dorei are looked with suspicion by their allies. Her reputation as a legend in her homeland is stained forever by her actions at the Sunwell.

    She is the protagonist for TWO QUESTLINES, TWO, the Mac'aree one and the Ren'dorei one, both of which are minor questlines.

    Yes, she is close to the protagonist, like the thousands of other quest givers in the game.

    She is not a Mary Sue just because her teacher is positive about her future, because then literally any student who ever lived is a Mary Sue. And besides why should she be singled out just because she has a promising destiny? Hello? This is the universe in which literally dozens upon dozens of characters were destined since birth to be great in something. Heck, some people like Illidan and Azshara are promised for greatness just because they had golden eye genes.

    She is given "vast powers" only at the beginning when she is corrupted by the Void on the Legion prison world, and even so her power was still untapped and she had to unlock it through training, which had it climax in the fight against L'ura.

    Finally, she is not flawless. She is hypocritical and considers her sister a monster even though she herself wields a shadowy power. She is arrogant and believes that the blood elves belong in the Alliance while ignoring what they've gone through while she was absent. She is careless and that resulted in an incident at the Sunwell.

    So no, Alleria is not a Mary Sue and you don't know how to recognize one. I'm afraid that misinterpreting a definition you copy-pasted from wikipedia does not make you an expert on the subject.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 12:55 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well that's the whole point of this topic really, to show a character growing you need to spend time with her, but if you're so focused on developing Mary SUe Sylvanas, you don't really get tos ee Alleria go.

    Now Alleria has changed or developed, however that all came in one download via the audio drama, quest lines in Mac'aree and the 3 sisters. Changes as long as they're not 180s are growth. Some people think that unless a character significantly changes (such as alignement from good to evil or vice versa, they haven't grown) That's not really true though is it.. Let's be honest.
    Developing a character does not makes a mary sue bro...

    Did story writers neglect Alleria's story? yes
    Do they have to choose 1 Windrunner at a time? no

    Fact is, Alleria's story is rushed and generic and makes her out to be an actual mary sue.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Zora-Prime View Post
    Developing a character does not makes a mary sue bro...

    Did story writers neglect Alleria's story? yes
    Do they have to choose 1 Windrunner at a time? no

    Fact is, Alleria's story is rushed and generic and makes her out to be an actual mary sue.
    Oh, but then Alleria is a Mary Sue just because she was not developed the way you wanted it to be, even though her change in personality and newfound powers are perfectly explained by the writers?

    Alleria's story is not generic, name me another mortal who trained under an ethereal to control the void, absorbed the heart of a dying dark naaru, and went on to lead others like her. And before you pull the "Mary Sue" card, No, absorbing the heart of a dying naaru after a long and difficult fight is not such an impressive feat. I mean, naaru are not exactly uber strong creatures when the Prime Naaru was oneshot by Illidan. It is also not rushed, as the existence of the aforementioned audio drama makes it clear. Finally, they did not neglect her story before her reintroduction in Legion, so much so that the main reason why she refuses to join the Horde and accept Sylvanas as their warchief is due to the deep hatred for the orcs that she carries since WC2. And while the hatred as decreased, so that she no longer wants to commit literal genocide, she still harbors a deep disgust for the Horde and what they represent.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 01:04 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra the War Criminal View Post
    Mate, she is an elf, literally every elf in this setting is hot.

    She is not loved by all, lmao, the Horde wants her dead and she and the Ren'dorei are looked with suspicion by their allies. Her reputation as a legend in her homeland is stained forever by her actions at the Sunwell.

    She is the protagonist for TWO QUESTLINES, TWO, the Mac'aree one and the Ren'dorei one, both of which are minor questlines.

    Yes, she is close to the protagonist, like the thousands of other quest givers in the game.

    She is not a Mary Sue just because her teacher is positive about her future, because then literally any student who ever lived is a Mary Sue. And besides why should she be singled out just because she has a promising destiny? Hello? This is the universe in which literally dozens upon dozens of characters were destined since birth to be great in something. Heck, some people like Illidan and Azshara are promised for greatness just because they had golden eye genes.

    She is given "vast powers" only at the beginning when she is corrupted by the Void on the Legion prison world, and even so her power was still untapped and she had to unlock it through training, which had it climax in the fight against L'ura.

    Finally, she is not flawless. She is hypocritical and considers her sister a monster even though she herself wields a shadowy power. She is arrogant and believes that the blood elves belong in the Alliance while ignoring what they've gone through while she was absent. She is careless and that resulted in an incident at the Sunwell.

    So no, Alleria is not a Mary Sue and you don't know how to recognize one. I'm afraid that misinterpreting a definition you copy-pasted from wikipedia does not make you an expert on the subject.
    Bolded1: Horde are the antagonists in this setting. Love by all is intended to mean those around her.

    Bolded2: Yes. sorry but that is literally in the definition of a mary sue.

    Bolded3: She still tags along with Anduin (Protagonist) which doesn't diminish her mary sue-ness.

    Bolded4: I don't need you to retell the story. she was still handed powers.

    Bolded5: She wasn't wrong now, was she?

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Zora-Prime View Post
    Bolded1: Horde are the antagonists in this setting. Love by all is intended to mean those around her.
    Okay, which still isn't the case, because aside from the Ren'dorei, who kind of need her, and her family, the rest of the Alliance either distrust her and her kind or do not give a shit at all.

    Bolded2: Yes. sorry but that is literally in the definition of a mary sue.
    No it isn't? Can you not even read the definition you copy-pasted from wikipedia? Nowhere does it say that just because you are the protagonist you are a Mary Sue.

    Bolded3: She still tags along with Anduin (Protagonist) which doesn't diminish her mary sue-ness.
    Or maybe she tags along with Anduin because the Alliance is the only refuge she has left after she has been exiled from her homeland? Besides, she only really tagged along with him at the Battle of Lordaeron, where she wanted Sylvanas dead after their failed reunion in Three Sisters.

    Bolded4: I don't need you to retell the story. she was still handed powers.
    Well clearly you do because you don't know it. Those powers she was handed brought a lot of negative consequences for her, since she was corrupted by one of the most dangerous forces in the universe. And she never wanted to be corrupted by the void, it was an incident. Following that logic the entire Scourge is made up of Mary Sues because they were raised into undeath and got undead powers.
    Bolded5: She wasn't wrong now, was she?
    And? It doesn't matter if she wasn't wrong. Sargeras also wasn't wrong to think that the void needs to be stopped no matter the cost. It doesn't change the fact that she acted in a hypocritical way, and Sylvanas events points out that Alleria acts like she is noble and pure when she herself was twisted into an abomination by absorbing the heart of the fallen naaru.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-01-01 at 01:15 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

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