If You Hate Poverty, You Should Love Capitalism

[Monster Hunter]

Shame its never been done, almost like they have opposing interests.

What do you think the nordic country's are doing? And its working fantastically.

In fact most of Europe's country's have some socialism with there capitolism. Because ya know there was this fella called Disraeli who had some pritty nifty ideas about it being the duty of the top to care for the bottom.

[Vash The Stampede]

I'm not watching those vids. Just tell us what his policy solution is.

Basically capitalism has failed in both Europe and America through inequality, and is already destroying our democracy. We need anti poverty programs, we need to invest 5% of GDP into Green Technology, we need socially produced capital. While capitalism has created immense wealthy, while at the same time has created new fangled forms of deprivation and poverty. Capitalism is a very primitive force that unleashes fantastic capacities while at the same time creating a gigantic crisis. Our states democracies are being completely usurped by the concentration of money and in fact our politics has been purchased by those who have an interest in depleting the natural resources of the planet.

[Adam Jensen]

Shame its never been done, almost like they have opposing interests.

Never been done, with the exception of the majority of the first world who's implemented parts of both . . .

[PC2]

Basically capitalism has failed in both Europe and America through inequality, and is already destroying our democracy.

Our economies our chugging along and were at the height of civilization in 2020. I don't see how the system has failed.

We need anti poverty programs,

Yeah everything on the bottom rung of Mazlowe's hierarchy should be free. It doesn't cost that much money.

we need to invest 5% of GDP into Green Technology, we need socially produced capital.

I don't think that will yield enough measurable benefits to stay in place and I think the average voter views green expenditures as having a high opportunity cost because that money could have been used to benefit the tax payers in a more direct manner.

depleting the natural resources of the planet.

The Earth will not be depleted of resources as it is a veritable cornucopia of natural resources. Technology has almost no limit in terms of getting the more abundant natural resources to play the same functional role as the previous materials that were once considered premium or optimal materials in the past.

[Themius]

Height of century? Wages are low, spending power is lower than in the 80s. Only the tech sector has managed to stay up with wages but by and large every other sector makes less than they did forty years ago. Labor participation is at some of the lowest levels they’ve be in a while and we have a serious working poor problem.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

The Earth will not be depleted of resources as it is a veritable cornucopia of natural resources. Technology has almost no limit in terms of getting the more abundant natural resources to play the same functional role as the previous materials that were once considered premium or optimal materials in the past.

We don't live on some fantasy rock with infinite resources; you're either grossly uninformed about the concept of finite resources or you think we'll magically find solutions to resource problems before the problems arising from our abuse of our natural resources become irrecoverable (or worse, you actually believe that some problems aren't irrecoverable).

If we heavily pollute 90% of the potable fresh water currently available to us we're not all going to die at once, we're just going to inflict suffering (and likely death from complications) on hundreds of millions of people currently alive and an untold number of people in the following generations. You can't just say "we'll fix it" about important shit while not proposing any solution to the issues at hand and expect people to take you as being serious in your participation in a discussion.

[Powerogue]

Why would you cite someone as insane as PragerU? For all I know they might have a point, but I'm not listening to a resource that loves lying as much as they do.

[Adam Jensen]

Why should we replace the native population with immigrants?

This is a myth perpetuated by racists and ignored by rational people. No one's "getting replaced" by foreigners being allowed to emigrate to your nation.

[PC2]

We don't live on some fantasy rock with infinite resources; you're either grossly uninformed about the concept of finite resources or you think we'll magically find solutions to resource problems before the problems arising from our abuse of our natural resources become irrecoverable (or worse, you actually believe that some problems aren't irrecoverable).

If we heavily pollute 90% of the potable fresh water currently available to us we're not all going to die at once, we're just going to inflict suffering (and likely death from complications) on hundreds of millions of people currently alive and an untold number of people in the following generations. You can't just say "we'll fix it" about important shit while not proposing any solution to the issues at hand and expect people to take you as being serious in your participation in a discussion.

I don't think that we'll deplete Earth's resources and go extinct but nobody can guarantee the future. What i'm saying is that for every product/service/thing we use now there is almost certainly going to be away to re-arrange and manipulate different forms of matter and energy to not only make new alternatives for everything, but actually *superior* alternatives. For example some will say that fossil fuel is the ultimate form of energy generation, I say that's wrong. Given the cosmically high amount of different ways that physical objects and their motions can be manipulated I would be absolutely shocked that there can't be superior forms of energy generation and materials that will surpass fossil fuels. In terms of our ability to make new products/services, humanity has barely scratched the surface of producing different variants of things that will have the same if not better functional and structural values. You can be doom and gloomy all you want, the rest of humanity is just getting started.

[Vash The Stampede]

Our economies our chugging along and were at the height of civilization in 2020. I don't see how the system has failed.

It is failing and we're ignorant to it. Keep in mind what you quoted me saying was what Yanis said, but I do agree with him and I'll explain. Europe has a debt crisis which is basically a recession for them. Hong Kong expects to go into a recession. India shut down their internet over citizenship law. Iran has protests over 400% gas price increase. Us Americans have printed $4 Trillion into the repo market, because they're too big to fail.

No matter where you look in the world there's social unrest over economic inequality, and it's getting worse because capitalism failed.

Yeah everything on the bottom rung of Mazlowe's hierarchy should be free. It doesn't cost that much money.

Must be cheaper than paying tax payer money into the hands of corporations who are too big to fail. Certainly more effective than companies pumping tax payer money into stock buy backs.

The Earth will not be depleted of resources as it is a veritable cornucopia of natural resources. Technology has almost no limit in terms of getting the more abundant natural resources to play the same functional role as the previous materials that were once considered premium or optimal materials in the past.

Does it need to be said that no resource is finite? Take Chile’s water supply problem as they have used it for growing avocados instead of using it as drinking water. China doesn't take Americans trash so we're burning it instead because it's cheaper.

[Elegiac]

Our economies our chugging along and were at the height of civilization in 2020. I don't see how the system has failed.

Yes, because you aren't capable of seeing issues that don't personally impact you. We've established this.

In reality there's crises ranging from the climate to homelessness all of which are being created or exacerbated by capitalism and for which no solutions are forthcoming.

[Voidism]

It's the right amount of socialism with capitalism that's the sweet spot.

Also, lol at people claiming Sweden is having "huuuge problems"... I doubt they even live here.

[PC2]

Europe has a debt crisis which is basically a recession for them

Hong Kong expects to go into a recession.

There's two solutions to that. Either outgrow the recession(and debt) or engage in austerity in the case of Europe.

India shut down their internet over citizenship law.

Revoke the bad policy and have engineers make sure the internet is online.

Iran has protests over 400% gas price increase.

Until the government starts acting appropriately then they deserve no help from us.

Us Americans have printed $4 Trillion into the repo market, because they're too big to fail.

Some money creation is fine and healthy, if it's too much than we need to make a law that restricts money creation.

No matter where you look in the world there's social unrest over economic inequality, and it's getting worse because capitalism failed.

Like I said before those in "unrest" should be given everything on the bottom rung of Mazlowe's hierarchy to make sure they are okay. From there on it's there obligation to solve problems in order to create wealth for themselves. If some crazy lunatics want to get violent then the police will neutralize them.

Must be cheaper than paying tax payer money into the hands of corporations who are too big to fail. Certainly more effective than companies pumping tax payer money into stock buy backs.

Then we should either outlaw that or make it so that the general populace must vote to approve of the measure.

Does it need to be said that no resource is finite?

Not at a level that is relevant to 2020 and the next few centuries. In the far far future we may deplete this planet and then move on to other planets. If we can't move on to other planets then we die. That's why we should develop that technology as fast as is reasonably possible.

Take Chile’s water supply problem as they have used it for growing avocados instead of using it as drinking water.

Drinking water takes a tiny fraction of the water. All they need to do is divert a small fraction of it to make sure everyone is hydrated. It's their choice though, as a Westerner it's not my place to dictate South American policy.

China doesn't take Americans trash so we're burning it instead because it's cheaper.

Okay so we need to do a cost-benefit analysis of burning vs burying. If we need to we can outlaw the former if it's harming our citizens.

[Masark]

Don't think of in terms of capitalism, or socialism, or communism but rather which system is the most compatible with democracy.

So definitely not capitalism, which is autocratic by nature.

[PC2]

So definitely not capitalism, which is autocratic by nature.

Well the people can just vote for whichever system they want every 4/5 years. Democracy is the foundation, what people choose to build on top of that foundation every cycle is up to them. The only critical thing is that the fair elections are never canceled for any reason and that there are ideologically distinct and opposing parties. From that point forward democracy is basically just an optimization process.

[Masark]

Well the people can just vote for whichever system they want every 4/5 years.

Except they don't get a vote in the place they have to spend about a third of their lives in. They receive autocratic orders from on high.

[PC2]

Except they don't get a vote in the place they have to spend about a third of their lives in. They receive autocratic orders from on high.

Are you implying you want direct democracy or what? It's possible but it has a lot of its own downsides relative to a republic.

[Masark]

Are you implying you want direct democracy or what? It's possible but it has a lot of its own downsides relative to a republic.

I'm saying if you want to actually be a democratic society, you need workplace democracy.

[PC2]

I'm saying if you want to actually be a democratic society, you need workplace democracy.

Okay, a "workplace democracy" doesn't sound very efficient but I think they should be allowed to compete with normal hierarchical workplaces.

As long as there's nothing coercive and retroactive in a establishing a workplace democracy than I don't see a problem.

[Vash The Stampede]

Like I said before those in "unrest" should be given everything on the bottom rung of Mazlowe's hierarchy to make sure they are okay. From there on it's there obligation to solve problems in order to create wealth for themselves. If some crazy lunatics want to get violent then the police will neutralize them.

Are you saying that those who don't have money should use their money to solve the no money problem? Because if that's the case then that's genius.

Then we should either outlaw that or make it so that the general populace must vote to approve of the measure.

I'm sure that'll work well when money has corrupted our democracy. I agree we need to vote for what's in our best interests but that's easier said than done. Lots of money is used to spread propaganda to influence peoples decisions, and the 2020 elections won't be any different.