Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Xath]

Some, others is that the story between Rey and Kylo means its "glorifiying" women abuse. The rest of the world needs to start working with my system. When ever someone starts anything with: "Objectification" and "Glorification", you need to simply not read their text, nothing smart is coming out of it.

This kind of isn't wrong tbh but it's very toned down in comparison to stuff like Shades at least.

[Dextroden]

"Toxicity" isn't about whether they liked the film or not.

It's the wishing death and harm on Abrams et al for creating the film they hate. That kind of venom and abuse is what's "toxic".

Is that why the toxicity police think that all dislike of the Rose Tico is based on racism? Is that why adorable phrases like the fandom menace and dumb criticism banning phrases like "It's a movie about space wizards for children"?

Even you've engaged in "Your dislike of Rey is based on hating women" shenanigans. It's a real and ironic thing.

[Endus]

To this specific argument, it's totally reasonable for a fan to say that he wished the series went in a direction that added more depth because he's older, like much of the Star Wars fanbase. It's a reasonable debate to have, and to discuss how hard it is for Star Wars to please everyone. Disney clearly wants to appeal to old and new fans, right? You act like there's some inherent logic to fandom that I just don't agree with.

I would love for Star Wars to "grow up". The Mandalorian is a bit of a step in that direction; it's not particularly complex, but it's not following standard tropes and there's no real kid-appeal. Can't even really say that Baby Yoda is.

What I have been taking issue with is people attacking and denigrating the modern trilogy films for tropes or inclusions that were already established in Star Wars, often in the OT that those same fans worship. It's why we get the same people kvetching that TFA was "too close to ANH; do something new goddammit", and then kvetching that TLJ "did new stuff that challenged preconceptions". Those two complaints are at direct odds with each other; someone who expressed both was predetermined to hate the new films, no matter what they were. They're looking to justify their predetermined hate. I have no idea why that hate exists, frankly. I think it's silly. A lot of people have accused me of "defending Disney", and blaming Disney for killing Star Wars, so that's likely one (ridiculous) source of it. But their complaints aren't consistent. They're holding the new films to standards the older films don't hold up to themselves.

I'm judging the new films by the standards of the OT, which itself was full of silly bullshit. There's stuff I like (Luke's arc, Finn as a character, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo as a character), there's stuff I don't (waffling between directors with different visions, Rey is milquetoast). There's stuff I like and dislike about the OT, too.

What I'm not going to agree with is setting some new, unrealistically high standard for these films, to expect them to outdo some of the most iconic films ever made, when there's really no significant new technical ground to tread as there was for Star Wars when it launched. I'll judge them by the same imperfect standards I judge the original trilogy. They're not as good, by that standard. They're better than the prequels were, however, by a pretty wide margin.

And hell, I've seen a lot of people laud the Clone Wars cartoon for being amazing, and asking why the movies weren't more like that. I've been watching the show, I'm somewhere in Season 3. It's been mostly pretty awful. Maybe it gets better, but it sure hasn't yet. A few episodes were okay, but some were execrable. And it's not that I hate content for younger audiences; I loved Avatar: TLA and LOK, Gravity Falls, stuff on Netflix like Voltron and The Dragon Prince. Nor is it that I hate Star Wars; I'm here defending the newer films.

Sure. Say you're disappointed the films haven't matured with you, and you've outgrown Star Wars. I've explicitly said that's totally fine and not something I'd judge anyone for. My issue is people attacking the new films for "killing Star Wars", over things that were always true about Star Wars films.

[Dextroden]

I'm 38. I was fine with TLJ, I don't think I'll like TRoS (haven't seen it yet). I'm an older Star Wars fan, and TLJ was exactly what I wanted - something grown up, something moving beyond the easy themes of black and white, dark side and light side, that had real, flawed human beings as characters as opposed to idealized tropes.

Criticizing TRoS for throwing that all away is fine. So is criticizing TLJ for throwing away the formula that everyone felt comfortable with. It's not so much about making it "for kids" or not, it's about making it "comfortable" or making it something bigger. Everyone who likes TRoS likes it because it's nostalgic, and comfortable, not because they're kids. The people who liked TLJ like it because it explored some themes not seen in the mainline SW canon to that point.

Is that why it ended with the guy who was tired of the first order assuming control of it to end the movie with battle of good vs evil?

[Ragedaug]

Lucas said a ton of times that he didn’t read the Eu and that he didn’t know any thing about it and he saw it as an alternate universe there’s no way he expected them to keep to it when he didn’t even know what was in it.

I know, that's literally what I said but rephrased. Lucas said it wasn't his Star Wars story, but he never said it wasn't canon. His company, Lucasfilm, controlled the canon of the EU, keeping every author who wrote in the Star Wars universe bound by it, with the exception of George Lucas himself. And we still have the point that Lucas expected the EU to be protected by Kennedy who would preside over movies being made out of that material.

The EU wasn’t forgotten it was moved away from as it was mostly hot garbage that locked them into a ton of nonsense they have been pulling good things(and some bad) from the EU None stop.

I haven't seen any evidence that the new EU is any more sensical than Legends.

They ripped a ton of this movie right out of the EU decolonizing it makes no sense if it’s just to be lazy as it’s more work to try and make the world work and pull stuff from it instead of just leaving the EU as canon.

Picking stuff you like and throwing away stuff you don't like, instead of figuring out how to make all the stuff work is the definition of laziness.

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Then Kennedy promptly forgot 40 years worth of Star Wars literature existed. Like, that's on "Daenerys forgot about the Iron Fleet" levels of stupid.

Some pretty crazy quotes in there.

Kennedy: "When you’re dealing, as I said, with something where you don’t necessarily have any source material, then you’re looking for a filmmaker who has a strong point of view, who can find themselves in the characters and in the story."

"No source material" so she hired JJ and RJ to make it about them. /facepalm Like she wasn't the one sitting there saying she would protect Lucas' "treasure trove". The more I hear about her, the more I'm convinced she has literally no clue what she's doing. She reminds me of Maebe Funke from Arrested Development. Answering every question from Disney with "Marry me!".

[apples]

I know, that's literally what I said but rephrased. Lucas said it wasn't his Star Wars story, but he never said it wasn't canon. His company, Lucasfilm, controlled the canon of the EU, keeping every author who wrote in the Star Wars universe bound by it, with the exception of George Lucas himself. And we still have the point that Lucas expected the EU to be protected by Kennedy who would preside over movies being made out of that material.



I haven't seen any evidence that the new EU is any more sensical than Legends.



Picking stuff you like and throwing away stuff you don't like, instead of figuring out how to make all the stuff work is the definition of laziness.

an employer has 2 employees. one is good and the other is bad. the employer cannot fire the bad employee because then he would be lazy

XD

[Ragedaug]

an employer has 2 employees. one is good and the other is bad. the employer cannot fire the bad employee because then he would be lazy

XD

Yeah, if you fired every employee who made a mistake instead of trying to help them fix it, that would make you a bad employer and again - The Definition of Lazy. Thanks for helping me make my point. XD

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I believe Lucas said something like "it's not as canon as my stuff, and I'll ignore it if necessary to the stories I want to tell."

You'll have to show me that. I have only heard him say he hadn't read it, and it wasn't his story. I don't recall him using the words "canon" or "ignore", but I could be wrong, maybe I just haven't seen the right interview.

I know other people have talked about how Lucas can or will ignore what he doesn't like and what is Lucas or "Official" canon versus what is only Lucasfilm canon, but I don't recall Lucas saying those words that it's not canon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Read the article, she literally says that writing Star Wars scripts is hard because they don’t have books or comics they can adapt.

she said there was no source material and that's true as they are not making movies based on de aging the actors to make the EU canon as it would be impractical/impossible. the fact that there is no comic/novel with the characters they are using doesn't mean they forget every thing about the EU this latest movie had a ton of stuff taken from dark empire but its not like you could make a script based off of dark empire as its not luke liea and han any more.

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I know, that's literally what I said but rephrased. Lucas said it wasn't his Star Wars story, but he never said it wasn't canon. His company, Lucasfilm, controlled the canon of the EU, keeping every author who wrote in the Star Wars universe bound by it, with the exception of George Lucas himself. And we still have the point that Lucas expected the EU to be protected by Kennedy who would preside over movies being made out of that material.

it makes zero sense that lucas would want them to protect something he never went though and knew nothing about while also giving them material to base episode 7-9 off of which would have contradicted that same EU. Lucas didn't care about the EU which is why he didn't bind him self to it and why he said it was an alternate universe.

I haven't seen any evidence that the new EU is any more sensical than Legends.

then you haven't read enough legends as even with the questionable stuff Disney has done its not to the same level of zombie wookie's and some of the other outlandish EU stuff.

Picking stuff you like and throwing away stuff you don't like, instead of figuring out how to make all the stuff work is the definition of laziness.

no the definition of laziness would be doing nothing and just going with what's already there. making comply new events, character's, and a timeline all together while also trying to bring over fan favorites in a sensible way is way way more work then doing literally nothing.

[Ragedaug]

it makes zero sense that Lucas would want them to protect something he never went though and knew nothing about while also giving them material to base episode 7-9 off of which would have contradicted that same EU. Lucas didn't care about the EU which is why he didn't bind him self to it and why he said it was an alternate universe.

OK, so take that up with Lucas /shrug. He's the one who said it, sitting next to Kennedy in an interview back in 2012 or so when he was selling to Disney. Maybe the fact that he wanted it protected meant he did care...at least a little.

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no the definition of laziness would be doing nothing and just going with what's already there. making comply new events, character's, and a timeline all together while also trying to bring over fan favorites in a sensible way is way way more work then doing literally nothing.

Yeah, that might be right...except the part where both Lucasfilm and JJ alluded to the fact that it would be way way more work to fit a story into the existing universe, both suggesting it would be easier to make competely new events, character's, and a timeline all together.

[Darththeo]

I haven't seen any evidence that the new EU is any more sensical than Legends.

EU is an old legends term. It doesn't apply to what Disney is doing.

[Ragedaug]

EU is an old legends term. It doesn't apply to what Disney is doing.

It's the universe that's expanded off the movies. The old EU was named "legends" to differentiate it from the new EU, which simply means: Star Wars stories that aren't the movies.

[Aurrora]

she said there was no source material and that's true as they are not making movies based on de aging the actors to make the EU canon as it would be impractical/impossible. the fact that there is no comic/novel with the characters they are using doesn't mean they forget every thing about the EU this latest movie had a ton of stuff taken from dark empire but its not like you could make a script based off of dark empire as its not luke liea and han any more.

No shit they don't have source material if they're trying to write their own original script, that's such a vacuous statement it shouldn't be voiced. They have 40 years worth of novels, there's no reason they couldn't find something in there worth adapting to a movie.

Doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy of the EU to adapt it, they could have adapted The New Jedi Order or Legacy of the Force and the actors would have been close enough to their appropriate age for those.

They could have done the Thrawn trilogy animated in the style of Clone Wars/Rebels.

They also had Lucas's own source material in the story treatment he sold them with Lucasfilm, which they promptly tossed.

I don't think they even took from Dark Empire for IX. Resurrecting your villain characters is just not that original of an idea, notice how many times Blizzard's done it? I especially don't think they would intentionally take from it as it's considered one of the weakest parts of the EU by fans.

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EU is an old legends term. It doesn't apply to what Disney is doing.

It's not supposed to apply, but we're already seeing the movies retcon lower tier works.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

OK, so take that up with Lucas /shrug. He's the one who said it, sitting next to Kennedy in an interview back in 2012 or so when he was selling to Disney. Maybe the fact that he wanted it protected meant he did care...at least a little.

lucas is rather unreliable so id say going off hes said though out the years is more reliable then a one off statement that he then contradicts by giving them material that would go against the EU for there movies.

Yeah, that might be right...except the part where both Lucasfilm and JJ alluded to the fact that it would be way way more work to fit a story into the existing universe, both suggesting it would be easier to make competely new events, character's, and a timeline all together.

from a universe stand point its absolutely more work. form a movie stand point its literally not possible to make a live action movie that lines up with the EU unless they make it totally unconnected form the original actors.

[Darththeo]

It's not supposed to apply, but we're already seeing the movies retcon lower tier works.

The only Retcon that I personally know of is Poe's backstory as he was a New Republic pilot prior to joining the Resistance and his friend(?) implied he left spice running to join the Resistance. It isn't really a retcon per se as Resistance, Rebels and New Republic seem to get mixed up by a lot of people anyway.

Though, you could argue a Rey's parents' background retcon.

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It's the universe that's expanded off the movies. The old EU was named "legends" to differentiate it from the new EU, which simply means: Star Wars stories that aren't the movies.

Yeah, I know, but Disney doesn't operate Star Wars like that the Legends did. So the term doesn't apply.

[Ahovv]

All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

No shit they don't have source material if they're trying to write their own original script, that's such a vacuous statement it shouldn't be voiced. They have 40 years worth of novels, there's no reason they couldn't find something in there worth adapting to a movie.

her statement is about the the last movie in the new trilogy you can't say its proof they ignore the EU when the quote isn't about the EU in any way.

Doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy of the EU to adapt it, they could have adapted The New Jedi Order or Legacy of the Force and the actors would have been close enough to their appropriate age for those.

that's what they did, they adapted dark empire but with worse cast. as far as doing a different story with the old cast again would be impossible as the actors either wanted out of the series or sadly died.

They could have done the Thrawn trilogy animated in the style of Clone Wars/Rebels.

they are still using thrawn so it seems likely that there will be some sort of thrawn trilogy even if its not 1/1.

They also had Lucas's own source material in the story treatment he sold them with Lucasfilm, which they promptly tossed.

given how poorly the trilogy turned out i can't say i disagree but Lucas's stuff wasn't EU so its not really relevant to them using the EU or not.

I don't think they even took from Dark Empire for IX. Resurrecting your villain characters is just not that original of an idea, notice how many times Blizzard's done it? I especially don't think they would intentionally take from it as it's considered one of the weakest parts of the EU by fans.

I'm not sure how you could think its any thing other then them taking dark empire when they even try and do a soul transfer have a hidden forces ect. I'm not a fan of dark empire so i'm not gonna reread it to see all the stuff they took but tis pretty apparent.

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All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

the movie is very much so a 1 to me it looks nice but its hollow and brings back elements of the old canon into the new canon its a total wasted opportunity.

[Aurrora]

The only Retcon that I personally know of is Poe's backstory as he was a New Republic pilot prior to joining the Resistance and his friend(?) implied he left spice running to join the Resistance. It isn't really a retcon per se as Resistance, Rebels and New Republic seem to get mixed up by a lot of people anyway.

Retconning Leia into having the full Jedi training, she laments never taking Luke up on his offer to train her as a Jedi in Bloodline, and the Visual Dictionary for TLJ states that she didn't become Luke's student because the extended isolation required for Jedi training would take away from her duties as a senator. Even if she's not going to officially act as a Jedi she wouldn't not use her Force powers in life or death situations, especially the ones that come unbidden like sensing danger.

[Dextroden]

All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

Well. There's another toxic hot take by the fandom.

[Aurrora]

her statement is about the the last movie in the new trilogy you can't say its proof they ignore the EU when the quote isn't about the EU in any way.

"Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be." - Kathleen Kennedy

It's not just about IX, she literally forgot 40 years of literature existed.

[Darththeo]

Retconning Leia into having the full Jedi training, she laments never taking Luke up on his offer to train her as a Jedi in Bloodline, and the Visual Dictionary for TLJ states that she didn't become Luke's student because the extended isolation required for Jedi training would take away from her duties as a senator. Even if she's not going to officially act as a Jedi she wouldn't not use her Force powers in life or death situations, especially the ones that come unbidden like sensing danger.

Could you tell me on what page on Bloodlines you are quoting because I don't recall that line.

Also, and that is a similar level retcon as the one I listed. Did you read it? "First true students" ... not "First students", that clearly leaves open the possibility of Leia being trained as a Jedi.

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All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

I rated it 1 star. That is because the scale is 0 to 4. I would have rated 2 star on a five star scale.