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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I didnt meant genocide. But continuing war against the Horde OR expecting them to pay reparations or at least fucken do something to fix the damage they did is not unexpectable. Starting with them relinquishing all and any control over Ashenvale. Because otherwise it will be a big problem with Horde recovering too quickly and being in better shape then Alliance if they keep what they got and dont compensate the damage they did.

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    The thing is - Anduin is so weak he actually manages to betray his own faction and sell out one of his allies to that “protectorate”. Nothing to fear when your enemy literally is a spineless fool.
    Apparently, even mentioning consequences for the Horde is chomping at the bits for their genocide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Apparently, even mentioning consequences for the Horde is chomping at the bits for their genocide.
    Or rather “Any kind of consequences or mention of consequences is TOO MUCH and Alliance is asking for impossible. While doing shit like genocide and total war against them is fine and not over the top.”

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Why does it have to be so black and white.

    Look at the world around us. An uneasy truce between many many countries and it just needs some shit (not even between two countries, but between countries befriended by them) and we are at each other's throat.

    Even when 13 and more countries agree on a trade union, it just needs one country with 50% jerks to cause unrest for years. So...hell...it could even be a movement within a faction that destabilizes everything
    That's what really drives me crazy about this. If they want to continue with the two factions then they need to write the story in a way that is more realistic with how multi-national politics work.

    The two super powers being in a low-temperature cold war where they fight small-level proxy wars through various smaller factions, which would allow the various elements who would logically be greatly opposed to peace with the other side (the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists) who could then become directly involved here and there in skirmishes and operations. That way they can still maintain the faction "conflict" while also leaving room for the two sides to still unite on a larger scale to fight the big bads that every expansion needs.

    Either that, or they give up the "two distinct factions" thing and allow grouping/guilding/full-scale interaction between the two but create factions that represent the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists, which would then still allow for the traditional pvp/war mode gameplay and faction conflict some people want.

    Anything else at this point would just be a ham-fisted attempt at preserving the faction conflict against all logic.

  4. #284
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealstegblob View Post
    If I recall correctly, Garithos ordered them to defend against the scourge despite knowing they were completely under-equipped to do so (and pretty much knowing they'd die, which was his plan). He then tried to imprison and execute them for accepting the aid of the naga.

    Garithos definitely wanted Kael and the elves dead one way or the other, lol.
    u forgot that he also took all their heavy armored unit and weapons before the start of mission, he was forcing them to die on purpose, it failed only thanks to naga
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  5. #285
    It's doesn't matter, in relations like between horde and ally it's no needed big story to make war, enough "small spark" to make big war.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    That's what really drives me crazy about this. If they want to continue with the two factions then they need to write the story in a way that is more realistic with how multi-national politics work.

    The two super powers being in a low-temperature cold war where they fight small-level proxy wars through various smaller factions, which would allow the various elements who would logically be greatly opposed to peace with the other side (the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists) who could then become directly involved here and there in skirmishes and operations. That way they can still maintain the faction "conflict" while also leaving room for the two sides to still unite on a larger scale to fight the big bads that every expansion needs.

    Either that, or they give up the "two distinct factions" thing and allow grouping/guilding/full-scale interaction between the two but create factions that represent the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists, which would then still allow for the traditional pvp/war mode gameplay and faction conflict some people want.

    Anything else at this point would just be a ham-fisted attempt at preserving the faction conflict against all logic.
    Well said, I quite agree.

  7. #287
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    That's what really drives me crazy about this. If they want to continue with the two factions then they need to write the story in a way that is more realistic with how multi-national politics work.

    The two super powers being in a low-temperature cold war where they fight small-level proxy wars through various smaller factions, which would allow the various elements who would logically be greatly opposed to peace with the other side (the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists) who could then become directly involved here and there in skirmishes and operations. That way they can still maintain the faction "conflict" while also leaving room for the two sides to still unite on a larger scale to fight the big bads that every expansion needs.

    Either that, or they give up the "two distinct factions" thing and allow grouping/guilding/full-scale interaction between the two but create factions that represent the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists, which would then still allow for the traditional pvp/war mode gameplay and faction conflict some people want.

    Anything else at this point would just be a ham-fisted attempt at preserving the faction conflict against all logic.
    They had a great chance at this after BfA. The "hawks" in each faction could have rallied around Tyrande/Genn and Sylvanas respectively, while "doves" would side with Anduin or Baine.

    But they decided to ditch it all for the sake of a worse MoP /sigh
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You are the one insisting I want genocide. I have repeatedly said I want the armies that participated punished. You continue to push the narrative that I've said otherwise. Kindly stop that. Skipping over the other replies where you keep insisting I said something that I didn't. Further, I would appreciate it if you'd stop the real world comparisons, I'm not playing that game.

    May I suggest you actually read some of the Alliance posts here? You know, instead of whatever strange version of them you're inventing? People have made very clear cases why Horde got the better deal despite the villain bat.

    The same one they've gotten since Cata, getting slapped shitless and told they're wrong to want to retaliate?

    I understand the concept fine, I meant your previous sentence had some odd phrasing and grammar that I didn't follow.

    Nice, more putting words in my mouth.

    Yes, the ending of MoP is a meme. I'm beginning to think you're trolling at this point.

    No, I'm fucking not. YOU keep accusing me of that with no basis whatsoever. What, win the argument by flinging the race card in hopes of silencing the opposition? The Horde is not a race, it is an army, nor can you quote me on anything that remotely says kill people based on race. There's no "All orcs should die" or anything like that. I've advocated for the Horde to be punished, not "every man, woman, and child of the Horde races should be wiped out" as you want to preach to me about.

    When I actually say anything remotely racist, you'll have a point. Until then, you're dishonestly trying to reframe my posts.
    Wrapping things up because it has become boring...

    I'm just pointing out that specific things you have said or not evil are, in fact, racist murder. Your only responses has mostly been "is not" and to complain about my using real world analogs where it is clear genocide aspect if the situation is hard to refute.

    And yes, we are playing a game where people are using real world standards of morality. If you want to suggest that you want Blizzard to allow you to commit genocide as part of "just a game", I would say a) you are doing a poor job of it, and b) Horde players aren't going to play a game that sucks for them to make it possible for you.

    You are in denial, but the reality is that BfA sucked for Horde players. I don't know what to tell you if you really con't get this. But picking out things you would like (particularly things you would like without having to put up with accompanying BS that Horde players had to swollow, and claiming the average Horde player had fun, when they didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I didnt meant genocide. But continuing war against the Horde OR expecting them to pay reparations or at least fucken do something to fix the damage they did is not unexpectable. Starting with them relinquishing all and any control over Ashenvale. Because otherwise it will be a big problem with Horde recovering too quickly and being in better shape then Alliance if they keep what they got and dont compensate the damage they did.
    The main problem with "reparations" is that they have already hit the Horde with the villian bat so much that it is a problem. If they use another whack to trY and molify Alliance players at the expense of Horde players, they just dig themselves deepers.

    I mean, I've unsubscribed and, mostly because I have given up on Blizzard developing the Horde as anything but bad guys, I'm not sure that _if_ I come back, I will ever play Horde again. Another whack of the villian bat would be another nail in the coffin.

  9. #289
    I dont mind Horde being the aggressors, but for love of god, stop with the rebellions within the horde!!

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    Wrapping things up because it has become boring...
    Yes, I would guess arguing with your strawman of me is boring.

    I'm just pointing out that specific things you have said or not evil are, in fact, racist murder. Your only responses has mostly been "is not" and to complain about my using real world analogs where it is clear genocide aspect if the situation is hard to refute.
    No, you have been flat out inventing things, attributing them to me, then lecturing me why they're wrong. For the last time, I have not advocated genocide, i.e. targeting people for their race. I have advocated punishing the armies that COMMITTED GENOCIDE themselves. I challenged you to quote me saying otherwise, you have failed to do so. The reason I "complain" about your real world examples is that WW2/Holocaust/etc comparisons are heavily frowned on by the mods here, if not forbidden.

    If you want to suggest that you want Blizzard to allow you to commit genocide as part of "just a game"
    Then I would be just like the parts of the Horde playerbase that wanted AND GOT THAT VERY THING, multiple times.

    Horde players aren't going to play a game that sucks for them to make it possible for you.
    Now turn this around and see if you can figure out why Alliance players are pissed and have been quitting for years.

    You are in denial, but the reality is that BfA sucked for Horde players. I don't know what to tell you if you really con't get this.
    You are in denial, but the reality is that BfA was exactly what the LolEvil Horde playerbase wanted, and they only became discontent when it shifted back to NobleSavage. There is plenty of evidence of this in this forum, the official forums, and all over the web. BfA sucked for Alliance players because we're relegated to NPCs for the benefit of the Horde playerbase. I don't know what to tell you if you really can't get this.

    claiming the average Horde player had fun, when they didn't.
    Another thing you invented and attributed to me. I have said nothing of the kind.

    If you're actually interested in talking to me and not your strawman of me, we can continue. If not, then I agree, we're done here.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Or rather “Any kind of consequences or mention of consequences is TOO MUCH and Alliance is asking for impossible. While doing shit like genocide and total war against them is fine and not over the top.”
    Yep, and us pointing out how much we didn't enjoy it is just us being selfish... somehow. I guess we exist to provide bodies for their BGs? The whole problem is summed up in that a blue talking about Teldrassil asked "What does this mean for the Horde?"
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2019-12-31 at 06:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    Wrapping things up because it has become boring...

    I'm just pointing out that specific things you have said or not evil are, in fact, racist murder. Your only responses has mostly been "is not" and to complain about my using real world analogs where it is clear genocide aspect if the situation is hard to refute.

    And yes, we are playing a game where people are using real world standards of morality. If you want to suggest that you want Blizzard to allow you to commit genocide as part of "just a game", I would say a) you are doing a poor job of it, and b) Horde players aren't going to play a game that sucks for them to make it possible for you.

    You are in denial, but the reality is that BfA sucked for Horde players. I don't know what to tell you if you really con't get this. But picking out things you would like (particularly things you would like without having to put up with accompanying BS that Horde players had to swollow, and claiming the average Horde player had fun, when they didn't.

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    The main problem with "reparations" is that they have already hit the Horde with the villian bat so much that it is a problem. If they use another whack to trY and molify Alliance players at the expense of Horde players, they just dig themselves deepers.

    I mean, I've unsubscribed and, mostly because I have given up on Blizzard developing the Horde as anything but bad guys, I'm not sure that _if_ I come back, I will ever play Horde again. Another whack of the villian bat would be another nail in the coffin.
    And another forgive-forget cuckfest for the Alliance it will kill already dying faction. Basically we got nothing, no payback, no revenge. And then they cant even have some sort of “peace offering” in good faith. Nothing. And Horde gets away with genocide and if Sylvanas becomes new Kerrigan then we cant even kill her and get that much. See what i mean? You speak a lot about how Horde feels bad, and dont want to play the game where they feel like losers all the time. Well Alliance already plays that game.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    My bet is that those filthy void elves will try invading Silvermoon, and then when the Blood Elves righteously retaliate the Alliance will conveniently forget that they instigated and cry out about "Horde aggression."

    Either that or something something Night elves.
    Or they will use Draenei so their "evil light" doctrine is sated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    I dont mind Horde being the aggressors, but for love of god, stop with the rebellions within the horde!!
    Sounds like something person with your avatar would want. I am all in.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  13. #293
    A few last points. Advocating killing some members of an Army because some of the other commited genocide is still murder. Its is like killing a German soldier on the line with Russia or a German cook in Italy because of concentration camps. And that isn't even getting into the point that, to try and spread the blame from Sylvanas and whoever fired the catapults, you cited Alliance only content. Not only is there no evidence that every soldier was involved in genocide, any knowledge of how armies work shows that is almost impossible.

    And I have to say, if mock the Horde with "Please don't genocide us back! That's our thing!", and you expect people to think you have a select group in for your revenge, you might want to re-evaluate your writting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And another forgive-forget cuckfest for the Alliance it will kill already dying faction. Basically we got nothing, no payback, no revenge. And then they cant even have some sort of “peace offering” in good faith. Nothing. And Horde gets away with genocide and if Sylvanas becomes new Kerrigan then we cant even kill her and get that much. See what i mean? You speak a lot about how Horde feels bad, and dont want to play the game where they feel like losers all the time. Well Alliance already plays that game.
    Well, Blizzard could easily have Tyrande lead the charge against Sylvanas the followers she took with her. But if that is enough, then we might as well give it all up on the grounds that the game is doomed. Becuase more hits with the Villian bat will solve nothing.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    That's what really drives me crazy about this. If they want to continue with the two factions then they need to write the story in a way that is more realistic with how multi-national politics work.

    The two super powers being in a low-temperature cold war where they fight small-level proxy wars through various smaller factions, which would allow the various elements who would logically be greatly opposed to peace with the other side (the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists) who could then become directly involved here and there in skirmishes and operations. That way they can still maintain the faction "conflict" while also leaving room for the two sides to still unite on a larger scale to fight the big bads that every expansion needs.

    Either that, or they give up the "two distinct factions" thing and allow grouping/guilding/full-scale interaction between the two but create factions that represent the extremists/fanatics/fundamentalists, which would then still allow for the traditional pvp/war mode gameplay and faction conflict some people want.

    Anything else at this point would just be a ham-fisted attempt at preserving the faction conflict against all logic.
    It's what we had in vanilla; the main factions had an uneasy truce, but local conflicts and proxy wars raged in places such as Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch. Back then the lore was very much on the backseat so not much was made of it, but it was still a situation that would have allowed for some good faction war stories to be told.

    The problem started in Wrath, when they made Garrosh both important and hyper anti-Alliance all of a sudden, and brought back Varian to be his equivalent on the blue team, in the name of "put the WAR back in WARcraft" as if so far we'd been giving each other massages or some shit. The Garrosh was made Warchief to escalate the war and since then faction lore has been pure shit, with the Alliance taking hits but being unable to truly hit back and the Horde being stuck with the villain bat and cycle of rebellion. Not sure who had it worse, but I am sure that nobody had it good.

    There's really no reason that the Genn vs Sylvanas conflict, for example -which is a pretty compelling one I think- to not have been able to continue on a micro scale, with Forsaken and Worgen forces waging guerrilla warfare in Silverpine and Hillsbrad without having the drag the entire Horde and Alliance into the mess.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    She doesn't like mass killings, as her clan barely survived one when she was young. Also Bwonsamdi wouldn't like it either (Sylvanas be tippin the scales too far) and she worships him and is also his daughter
    I wouldn't say that bwon has a problem with the killing, more a problem with her keeping what she kills, he demands a million souls as payment for his help after all.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by allawyn View Post
    A few last points. Advocating killing some members of an Army because some of the other commited genocide is still murder. Its is like killing a German soldier on the line with Russia or a German cook in Italy because of concentration camps. And that isn't even getting into the point that, to try and spread the blame from Sylvanas and whoever fired the catapults, you cited Alliance only content. Not only is there no evidence that every soldier was involved in genocide, any knowledge of how armies work shows that is almost impossible.

    And I have to say, if mock the Horde with "Please don't genocide us back! That's our thing!", and you expect people to think you have a select group in for your revenge, you might want to re-evaluate your writting.

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    Well, Blizzard could easily have Tyrande lead the charge against Sylvanas the followers she took with her. But if that is enough, then we might as well give it all up on the grounds that the game is doomed. Becuase more hits with the Villian bat will solve nothing.
    And Alliance is doomed without us taking harsh actions against the Horde because there is only so much of humiliation you can go through until you become a joke and wither. So what? Playing Alliance dosent feel bad... it feels disgusting. It feels like literally being cucked. Would you want to play like that?
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2020-01-02 at 05:26 AM.

  17. #297
    High Overlord Aleloron's Avatar
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    I want a new war started by Tyrande and her Elves. I want her to wage a holy war for Elune and slaughter innocents only to discover that Elune is no goddess at all (and it’s extremely unlikely that Elune is anything more than just a Loa the Night Elves venerated when they were still the Dark Trolls) but in truth an unknown female-ish Old God(dess) that has been playing a long-con on her and her people.
    Don’t ask me to explain my idiocy; I’m in my early 40’s and still don’t understand it myself.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And Alliance is doomed without us taking harsh actions against the Horde because there is only so much of humiliation you can go through until you become a joke and wither. So what? Playing Alliance dosent feel bad... it feels disgusting. It feels like literally being cucked. Would you want to play like that?
    Oh but what does this mean for the Horde?

    I like how one of the arguments in favor of the usual "pin the latest rampage on a scapegoat, the Horde dindu nuffin, let us walk away" is that Horde players would feel bad. Well how the hell do they think Alliance players feel, always having to be idiots with targets on their backs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleloron View Post
    I want a new war started by Tyrande and her Elves. I want her to wage a holy war for Elune and slaughter innocents only to discover that Elune is no goddess at all (and it’s extremely unlikely that Elune is anything more than just a Loa the Night Elves venerated when they were still the Dark Trolls) but in truth an unknown female-ish Old God(dess) that has been playing a long-con on her and her people.
    Yep, we've only been shitting on NElves since Cata, let's keep piling it on by destroying one of the key points of their lore!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  19. #299
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I don't think Talanji wants anything to do with the Alliance since Rastakhan died. She wasn't at Saurfang's funeral either

    And speaking of Baine, it was awesome when Bwonsamdi told him to watch his tone
    when did this happen? link me pls

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Most playerbase are already coming back from Classic, myself included. Trying to get that 70 neck before 8.3, boiiiiiiiiiiiii.

    My Classic guild that was farming MC a month ago already broke up.
    Your comment =/= facts.....in no way is most of the playerbase coming back to retail from classic...you literally pulled this statement out of ur arse. Why would u do this?

  20. #300
    High Overlord Aleloron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Yep, we've only been shitting on NElves since Cata, let's keep piling it on by destroying one of the key points of their lore!
    I find the Night Elves to be utterly boring and pointless, little better than a bunch of tree-hugging hippies. I can see how a fan of NElfs would dislike it, but something that truly shook them to the core and entirely dismantled over ten thousand-plus years of beliefs would send them into a spiral of self-destruction and would make them pretty damn interesting. Yeah they lost their precious tree and a lot of them were murdered when the tree was set on fire, but I still expect Blizz to pull a re-do during the end of the Shadowlands expansion and somehow resurrect the majority of the Nelfs that were burnt into crispy critters, entirely trivializing the recent events. So, with that in mind, I think that a truly massive shake-up, one that can’t just be retconned out in an expansion or two thanks to new Titan/Light/Void/Shadowlands Super Special Magic-y Magic would be pretty awesome.
    Don’t ask me to explain my idiocy; I’m in my early 40’s and still don’t understand it myself.

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