Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"Every one of these movies is a particularly hard nut to crack. There’s no source material. We don’t have comic books. We don’t have 800-page novels. We don’t have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be." - Kathleen Kennedy

It's not just about IX, she literally forgot 40 years of literature existed.

I mean it is about IX as she was asked a question about IX but your right she is talking about all of the new trilogy. but it doesn't change that she's right and there is no source material they could have used as the actors wanted out or died. as far as other media goes they can use post return EU stuff as source material but that's just not an option for the live action movies.

I mean i guess they could have recast all of the original characters and then taken from the EU but the fan base would have hated that and it would have likely ended the same way with poor movies.

[Aurrora]

Could you tell me on what page on Bloodlines you are quoting because I don't recall that line.

Sorry, it's been years since I've read Bloodline so I don't remember where it's at in the book.

Also, and that is a similar level retcon as the one I listed. Did you read it? "First true students" ... not "First students", that clearly leaves open the possibility of Leia being trained as a Jedi

"However, she ultimately decided that the best path for her to serve the galaxy left no room for the extended isolation of Jedi training." This line precludes her from having all but a crash course in Jedi training, but in TRoS Luke tells us that she had the full training but laid down her saber on the last day of her training due to a force vision.

[Fayolynn]

All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

Whose is actually toxic here? The person who says they didnt like the movie and can explain why. Or the person claiming not liking the film makes your opinion invalid?

[Darththeo]

Sorry, it's been years since I've read Bloodline so I don't remember where it's at in the book.



"However, she ultimately decided that the best path for her to serve the galaxy left no room for the extended isolation of Jedi training." This line precludes her from having all but a crash course in Jedi training, but in TRoS Luke tells us that she had the full training but laid down her saber on the last day of her training due to a force vision.

Not really, that is how you choose to read it. But, even saying you are 100% correct, that isn't really close to retcons that Legends had. The word "ultimately" to me implies a decent length of time, more than a crash course or at the very least lengthy consideration. So for me, it is definitely open to interpretation.

[Fayolynn]

"However, she ultimately decided that the best path for her to serve the galaxy left no room for the extended isolation of Jedi training." This line precludes her from having all but a crash course in Jedi training, but in TRoS Luke tells us that she had the full training but laid down her saber on the last day of her training due to a force vision.

Let's not forget that Luke's goal of ending the Jedi in TLJ is impossible if Leia is fully trained and capable of passing on the knowledge herself. And the title crawl for Episode 7 calling Luke the Last Jedi. Rey (whose only connection to Luke is that she is force sensitive) is sent to find him at the end of TFA, the implication is she is being sent to him for training.

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Not really, that is how you choose to read it. But, even saying you are 100% correct, that isn't really close to retcons that Legends had. The word "ultimately" to me implies a decent length of time, more than a crash course or at the very least lengthy consideration. So for me, it is definitely open to interpretation.

Even going with your interpretation TRoS is a retcon due to it saying she completed her training.

[Ahovv]

Whose is actually toxic here? The person who says they didnt like the movie and can explain why. Or the person claiming not liking the film makes your opinion invalid?

There's a difference between something not being quite your cup of tea and asserting that a movie is actually shit and worse than most other films of the year.

Also, most of the flaws people point out in this film are inexplicably excused from past Star Wars films, be it nostalgia glasses or sexism. Case in point, all the crying that Rey is a Mary Sue but meanwhile believing the original trilogy with Luke Skywalker was amazing and that his character somehow doesn't suffer the same problem.

These people aren't wrong because they dislike the movie, they're wrong because they aren't applying their reasoning evenly across the series. They should hate the older films as well but instead those are given free passes.

[Darththeo]

Even going with your interpretation TRoS is a retcon due to it saying she completed her training.

Except she didn't. The events shown was her last night of training, nearly completed ... but nearly completed is partially not completed.

[Dextroden]

There's a difference between something not being quite your cup of tea and asserting that a movie is actually shit and worse than most other films of the year.

Also, most of the flaws people point out in this film are inexplicably excused from past Star Wars films, be it nostalgia glasses or sexism. Case in point, all the crying that Rey is a Mary Sue but meanwhile believing the original trilogy with Luke Skywalker was amazing and that his character somehow doesn't suffer the same problem.

These people aren't wrong because they dislike the movie, they're wrong because they aren't applying their reasoning evenly across the series. They should hate the older films as well but instead those are given free passes.

And we have accusations of sexism with no proof. What's next on the checklist for played out star wars fan arguments?

[Ahovv]

And we have accusations of sexism with no proof. What's next on the checklist for played out star wars can arguments?

If you can't understand why it's sexist to claim Rey is a Mary Sue but that somehow Luke Skywalker doesn't suffer the same writing issues, you might be a sexist.

If you didn't give a shit when Luke did all sorts of shit with no/minimal training, you're not allowed to suddenly give a shit for Rey (who actually trains more than Luke does in the films).

All you have to look at is the ending of Episode 4. Dude just magically blows up the death star without proper training. If Rey did that kind of shit you'd be crying about it.

[Darththeo]

And we have accusations of sexism with no proof. What's next on the checklist for played out star wars fan arguments?

Except they didn't. They said "Nostalgia googles or sexism." And if you think some people who dislike Rey, Rose or Holdo don't dislike her because they are a woman ... I am just wondering what world you live in. I have seen people refuse to believe my office director because she is a woman and accept the world of my supervisor who is male.

They are not accusing anyone in this topic specifically being sexist.

[Dextroden]

If you can't understand why it's sexist to claim Rey is a Mary Sue but that somehow Luke Skywalker doesn't suffer the same writing issues, you might be a sexist.

If you didn't give a shit when Luke did all sorts of shit with no/minimal training, you're not allowed to suddenly give a shit for Rey (who actually trains more than Luke does in the films).

All you have to look at is the ending of Episode 4. Dude just magically blows up the death star without proper training. If Rey did that kind of shit you'd be crying about it.

If you have to call people sexist to get past the fact people don't like the shitty main character you have a crush on, I don't know what to tell you.

[Ahovv]

If you have to call people sexist to get past the fact people don't like the shitty main character you have a crush on, I don't know what to tell you.

Yeah, you're blocked. What a complete fool.

Flaming isn't allowed. Not is discussing forbidden topics. Infracted.

[Dextroden]

Except they didn't. They said "Nostalgia googles or sexism." And if you think some people who dislike Rey, Rose or Holdo don't dislike her because they are a woman ... I am just wondering what world you live in. I have seen people refuse to believe my office director because she is a woman and accept the world of my supervisor who is male.

They are not accusing anyone in this topic specifically being sexist.

Except where they blamed sexism.

Well that was fun. I wonder what ism is next.

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Yeah, you're blocked. What a complete fool.

Thank you for that. Hope the mods infract you because they pretend flaming is bad here.

[Ahovv]

Except they didn't. They said "Nostalgia googles or sexism." And if you think some people who dislike Rey, Rose or Holdo don't dislike her because they are a woman ... I am just wondering what world you live in. I have seen people refuse to believe my office director because she is a woman and accept the world of my supervisor who is male.

They are not accusing anyone in this topic specifically being sexist.

Some of these morons actually think we live in a post-racism, post-sexism world; they're blind to how they view other people and make judgments.

[Thekri]

All the 0-star ratings justify the notion that nobody should listen to the toxic "fanbase."

Anyone who thinks this film is *actually* a 0 or 1 star film does not deserve to have their criticisms heard.

Eh, not sure about that. I just got home from watching in the theater for the first time, and I can actually understand every rating from 0 to 4 on this scale. I am not a huge Star Wars fan per se (Hence why I waited for the crowds to die down before I went to see it), but I do enjoy Star Wars, and some of the video games and such as well. Personally I would rate the movie as a 2 on this scale, but I understand the different ratings for different people.

For a Star Wars lore purist, the movie is easily a zero. It is a rather confusing mess that jumps around like crazy with ill defined powers and circumstances, and that will likely ruin it for people that loved the extended universe and such. So it will be a zero for a lot of the "Super Fans".

For someone that grew up with Star Wars, seen all the movies, but doesn't really read anything else, it might be a 4. It is absolutely peppered with references and playing the greatest hits. It has the duel in fallen throne room of the death star, Luke's original X-wing (For no apparent reason), Chewie finally got his medal, and we saw Han Solo, Lando, and Leia again. Yeah, none of it really made sense, but it pushed so many nostalgia buttons a lot of them will connect with the sort of middle aged audiences that loved it as a kid.

For everyone else, it will probably fall somewhere in the middle. I see it as a decent summer popcorn film, but certainly not as the pinnacle of a sweeping narrative journey that took 50 years to reach its conclusion. So it really depends on what expectations you had of the film. What is actually there is kind of fun, but narratively mediocre.

[Ahovv]

Eh, not sure about that. I just got home from watching in the theater for the first time, and I can actually understand every rating from 0 to 4 on this scale. I am not a huge Star Wars fan per se (Hence why I waited for the crowds to die down before I went to see it), but I do enjoy Star Wars, and some of the video games and such as well. Personally I would rate the movie as a 2 on this scale, but I understand the different ratings for different people.

For a Star Wars lore purist, the movie is easily a zero. It is a rather confusing mess that jumps around like crazy with ill defined powers and circumstances, and that will likely ruin it for people that loved the extended universe and such. So it will be a zero for a lot of the "Super Fans".

For someone that grew up with Star Wars, seen all the movies, but doesn't really read anything else, it might be a 4. It is absolutely peppered with references and playing the greatest hits. It has the duel in fallen throne room of the death star, Luke's original X-wing (For no apparent reason), Chewie finally got his medal, and we saw Han Solo, Lando, and Leia again. Yeah, none of it really made sense, but it pushed so many nostalgia buttons a lot of them will connect with the sort of middle aged audiences that loved it as a kid.

For everyone else, it will probably fall somewhere in the middle. I see it as a decent summer popcorn film, but certainly not as the pinnacle of a sweeping narrative journey that took 50 years to reach its conclusion. So it really depends on what expectations you had of the film. What is actually there is kind of fun, but narratively mediocre.

For lore purists who understand the canon *outside* of the films, none of the powers are super OP except Palpatine at the end, but there's enough precedent for it to make sense. I can understand someone who has literally only watched the films to be a little confused, but nobody who considers themselves a "lore purist" should be confused.

Truly OP shit would be like Bastila's Battle Meditation in KOTOR which strengthened an entire fleet while weakening an entire other one, and of course Legends Luke Skywalker had some god-mode abilities.

But yeah, as far as ratings go, we have too many people these days who jump on a bandwagon and just spam zeroes or 10s on everything. If it's not absolutely perfect in their eye, it's now a 0. And if it's something they're a blind fanboy on, instant 10. Audience reviews are really hit or miss. If there's not some "movement" on social media about it, the reviews will probably be pretty fair. But the bandwagon reviews are completely absurd and I'm sick of seeing them.

[Darththeo]

Except where they blamed sexism.

Well that was fun. I wonder what ism is next.

That's not how it works. They didn't accuse anyone in particular individual in this topic, therefor it wasn't an accusation of anyone.

And again, you have to be pretty unaware of people to think that no one dislike Rey with the reason being she is a female character, even if they don't say it.

Also, Rey is pretty standard for Star Wars protagonists and despite everything, she isn't even that overpowered when it comes to Legends Jedi ... she is average by that standard at best. Hence the other part of the person's complaint "Nostalgia goggles."

For example, the complaint "She never loses!" ... it depends on what you define by losing. I would say she lost in TLJ, her goal was to convert Kylo ... she failed there. So it is a perspective issue more than a fact. I could argue Luke never "lost" in the OT if I really wanted to make an argument. Luke ran away from Vader in ESB, meaning the duel ended in a draw. As Luke never even attempted to fight the Emperor, his goal there was to turn his father ... which he succeeded in. Would people accept this argument as evidence Luke never lost in the OT?

Note: I neither like nor dislike Rey ... I have problems with her character, but I spend a lot more of my time defending Rey than dealing with the issues I have with her because the arguments against her are often just parroted to me.

[Ragedaug]

Yeah, I know, but Disney doesn't operate Star Wars like that the Legends did. So the term doesn't apply.

The term still applies. It means, not-movie Star Wars. That's what EU has always meant, and what it still means. The old EU is called Legends now, so it's no longer the EU.

[Darththeo]

The term still applies. It means, not-movie Star Wars. That's what EU has always meant, and what it still means. The old EU is called Legends now, so it's no longer the EU.

Again, it not how Disney operates. You are just using a fan term you accept and acting like it means anything ... it doesn't.

[Ragedaug]

EU was used specifically because it was separate canon from the films. It was renamed legends and EU has gone out of usage.

EU is still in usage, because there are movie only people and book/comic/games as-well people. Movie only people typically only go by what's in the movies, so when you want to talk to something that's not in the movie, you refer to the expanded material. That's why EU is still in use and it works well. Way easier than writing "it's in the books or comics or games or some other media that's not in the movies". I just say "EU". Because that's what it is.

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Again, it not how Disney operates. You are just using a fan term you accept and acting like it means anything ... it doesn't.

Yes, I am using a fan term.