Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Krille]

Quality does not matter if it was killed by less than 200 guilds - only Yogg+0 had less when it was current content. If it was supposedly so good, they should have put him in a proper tier instead of a throwaway raid that lasted 3 months, without any gear progression.

People didn't give it an honest chance or were stuck raiding Jaina.

[Moozart]

Mythic progress is just to tight. I'm happy that the cutting edge can have a difficult race, but us guilds floating around top 2000 are bursting at the seams.
It started in BoD and continued this tier. My guild has just stopped progress after achieving the Court kill. It's just too exhausting.

We're not alone in this apparently. It feels like the 1500 to 3000 range of guilds is crumbling away. Either that or classic killed a thousand raids, because my guild suddenly jumped a thousand spots from last tier to this one. In my 12 years of raidleading, I've never experienced something like this.

From Ashvane onwards the bosses are just unforgivingingly tight. Lose more players than your rez count and you can reset. It used to be that you can yeet a boss with one or two dead, but I can't even justify letting our elderly ret paladin play on progress night. There's a lot of newfound resentment and frustration among my raiders towards the players that are performing *just* average numbers or fail more than once on any given mechanic.

Unlike older tiers, there's basically no power gain. Since titanforging got nerfed hard and AP caps at 70, it feels like we're stagnating while running against a wall. Normally I could say 'We're a little bit more powerful next week, lets try again', but that's not happening. Every week clearing Orgozoa is just as hard and tight as the first time.

We don't want to be gifted an Azshara kill, we just don't want to feel like we're grinding to dust on a wall. Throw us a bone Blizz, will ya?
I really hope that Ny'alotha's corruption re-introduces a rolling power gain to help with progress blockers, because we're burning out over here.

ONly bad guilds are having this issue... oh wait

[KaPe]

People didn't give it an honest chance or were stuck raiding Jaina.

I gave it a chance, despite plenty of guild members saying "what's even the point?". I remember Cabal being harder than Jaina, especially after she had her final wave of nerfs (at that point it was no contest). There was just no time for it, the whole raid lasted 3 months and that's 3 months only assuming you were already done with Jaina. In reality, if you weren't Top200 already, you barely had time to put some serious effort into the place.

There were ~5000 people who actually got Uu'nat kill and CE. No matter how you slice it, it's a failure. I'm going assume this was a mistake and they're not going to do it again. Unlike with normal mythic content, one cannot say "oh, you were just lazy, it's totally trivial now" while pointing at these absurd numbers.

[Frozenbro]

Show me an example of an item level 230 that is worse than a 220 please.

A crit vers 220 for dh is without a doubt superior to a 230 mastery haste, dont try to bear the truth when you are clueless about stat weights among classes tyvm.

[Krille]

I gave it a chance, despite plenty of guild members saying "what's even the point?". I remember Cabal being harder than Jaina, especially after she had her final wave of nerfs (at that point it was no contest). There was just no time for it, the whole raid lasted 3 months and that's 3 months only assuming you were already done with Jaina. In reality, if you weren't Top200 already, you barely had time to put some serious effort into the place.

There were ~5000 people who actually got Uu'nat kill and CE. No matter how you slice it, it's a failure. I'm going assume this was a mistake and they're not going to do it again. Unlike with normal mythic content, one cannot say "oh, you were just lazy, it's totally trivial now" while pointing at these absurd numbers.

Consider yourself in a real raiding guild then. I know guilds that didnt even bother, they simply took a break instead, weak! But it did lead to our first top 100 position, so i'll take it.

Its a darn shame that they cut it short.

Azshara is a dog tier boss though, had 4 phases and only 1.5 was relevant/actually challenging. We had to sit through 3-4 minute + pulls after 1 raid on her. Extremely dull fight.

All-in-all, if they make the game/raids any easier they will be meme-tier raids like in Destiny 2 or that other Tom Clancy shooter rpg. Cleared in a day, takes out all the fun of progressing something challenging with friends.

I am neutral/positive towards lowering amount of players needed, but they could never balance it so why risk it. They must never open up mythic x realm early on. It will ruin the last bit of realm identity still in the game, for what gain? Lots of keyboard warriors that claim they would clear the raids if it was x-realm, big skeptic.

[Jastall]

mythic isn't out of reach of normal players because of the tuning. It's because blizzard wants you to farm an additional 15 hours a week for AP, reputation, essences, and dear god the consumable costs. All while the loot is roided up rng making proper progression feel like pushing a bolder uphill.

If that were true, Mythic would have seen drastically more participation in WoD where raidlogging was a perfectly viable option, and it didn't.

Mythic is not done by most because the logistical, organizational and personal skill requirements are too much for most players, end of. Much like the hardest difficulty (or highest skill bracket) of pretty much any game sees a massive participation dropoff.

[KaPe]

If that were true, Mythic would have seen drastically more participation in WoD where raidlogging was a perfectly viable option, and it didn't.

Mythic is not done by most because the logistical, organizational and personal skill requirements are too much for most players, end of. Much like the hardest difficulty (or highest skill bracket) of pretty much any game sees a massive participation dropoff.

Logistical requirements were only made worse recently thanks to stuff like Demon Hunter/Monk debuff, stamina only coming from priests and so on. It's come to a point where almost half of your raid spots "need" specific classes or your perfomance will greatly suffer.

For "serious" guilds, this is not a problem. For those who are new to mythic, it's yet another obstacle. Sure, they could raid without Demon Hunter, but their dps will suffer. Sure, they can use int scrolls, but it's inferior version. And so on. It's not some massive issue, but another nuisance that could easily be avoided. One that *was* dealt with in the past, where most buffs were provided by several different classes.

Here's hoping this is fixed with Shadowlands' supposed unpruning. Stuff like Curse of the Elements giving magic debuff, Horn of Winter for AP and so on. Make it easier to guarantee the bare minimum of raid performance. It won't change that much, but it will help a bit.

[Tr0up141]

If that were true, Mythic would have seen drastically more participation in WoD where raidlogging was a perfectly viable option, and it didn't.

To be fair, WoD also marked the end of 10-man mythic (then called simply heroic) so by virtue of numbers there'd be less participation as smaller guilds coalesce into larger ones to promote 20-man raiding.

[Jastall]

To be fair, WoD also marked the end of 10-man mythic (then called simply heroic) so by virtue of numbers there'd be less participation as smaller guilds coalesce into larger ones to promote 20-man raiding.

I mean more the difference between WoD and Legion/BFA where the latter have lots more raid preparation required. With the exception of HFC which lasted 13 months and was made lots easier with ring and ilvl upgrades, the clear rates of WoD seem broadly similar to those of latter expansions while the raids themselves weren't much harder or easier.

Obviously the clear rate of 20 man mythic and 10 man Heroic are going to be night and day. The latter is more accessible and was often (not always) the easier of the two Heroic settings.

[Drefan]

I disagree completely, the reason the mythic raid scene is dying off is in direct correlation to what blizzard are "forcing" us to do to stay competitive. This whole endless grind mentality is pointless and makes playing into a chore. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it was a nightmare for anyone that wanted to min max. I preferred the "old way" where you could become fully BIS geared and get that sense of completion. Having to rely on so much RNG to get the perfect gear piece to drop is insane (ilvl + socket)and also completely disheartening. These changes combined with this whole new PA loot system was probably the final stab in the back for some players.

I personally liked when the tier was hard since it was all the more fulfilling when we finally completed it. If I could choose between killing a boss in 1-5 pulls or 20+ I'll always chose option number 2.

[GringoD]

I disagree completely, the reason the mythic raid scene is dying off is in direct correlation to what blizzard are "forcing" us to do to stay competitive. This whole endless grind mentality is pointless and makes playing into a chore. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it was a nightmare for anyone that wanted to min max. I preferred the "old way" where you could become fully BIS geared and get that sense of completion. Having to rely on so much RNG to get the perfect gear piece to drop is insane (ilvl + socket)and also completely disheartening. These changes combined with this whole new PA loot system was probably the final stab in the back for some players.

I personally liked when the tier was hard since it was all the more fulfilling when we finally completed it. If I could choose between killing a boss in 1-5 pulls or 20+ I'll always chose option number 2.

Correlation doesn't mean causation. The raiding scene was perfectly stable during Legion, which had exactly the same problems. Titanforging was even more powerful. Artifact level was neck level, legendaries were essences.
I'd argue that your complaint adds to the pile, but wasn't enough on its own.

I chuckled at your choice of wipe count. If we were talking about taking 20 wipes to down a boss, this thread wouldn't exist. No, raids collapse because they suddenly need hundreds of wipes for the fourth boss and onwards.

[Gorsameth]

Uu'nat mythic possibly the best boss they've made in years, sadly not a lot of people experienced it. Long fight but didnt feel like it, pacing was just right.

Its simply, this thread is not about you, a raider who thinks that Uu'nat and Kil'jaeden, arguably the 2 hardest bosses this game has ever known, are the pinnacle of boss design. Congratulations your e-peen is massive but this thread is talking about the situation for mid-low level Mythic guilds that are dying in droves and not the top 0.4%

[Krille]

Its simply, this thread is not about you, a raider who thinks that Uu'nat and Kil'jaeden, arguably the 2 hardest bosses this game has ever known, are the pinnacle of boss design. Congratulations your e-peen is massive but this thread is talking about the situation for mid-low level Mythic guilds that are dying in droves and not the top 0.4%

The reason guilds are dying is because the game is bad, /thread. The discussion has evolved from simply stating why they're dying. The whole premise of the thread is that the raids are too difficult, but I simply can't agree.

Nerf them more and earlier, if this resurrects the bottomfeeding guilds, i stand corrected. My guess is people are fed up with shit design for too long and took the step to quit the game until shadowlands and pray its better.

[Gorsameth]

The reason guilds are dying is because the game is bad, /thread. The discussion has evolved from simply stating why they're dying. The whole premise of the thread is that the raids are too difficult, but I simply can't agree.

Nerf them more and earlier, if this resurrects the bottomfeeding guilds, i stand corrected. My guess is people are fed up with shit design for too long and took the step to quit the game until shadowlands and pray its better.

You simply don't seem to get it. The opinions of top 0.4% aren't really relevant when discussing the plight of the top 50%. In the same way that I don't care what Elon Musk thinks about his taxes when someone with a median income complains about his tax burden.

[Krille]

You simply don't seem to get it. The opinions of top 0.4% aren't really relevant when discussing the plight of the top 50%. In the same way that I don't care what Elon Musk thinks about his taxes when someone with a median income complains about his tax burden.

Difference is that Musk was born rich, he has never seen poverty or even being a middle class citizen. Meanwhile most of us come from the trenches, having to climb the raiding ladder to get into the "0.4%". Seen the game from all PoVs and claiming difficult raids is the reason people quit the game is just false.

[Drefan]

Correlation doesn't mean causation. The raiding scene was perfectly stable during Legion, which had exactly the same problems. Titanforging was even more powerful. Artifact level was neck level, legendaries were essences.
I'd argue that your complaint adds to the pile, but wasn't enough on its own.

I chuckled at your choice of wipe count. If we were talking about taking 20 wipes to down a boss, this thread wouldn't exist. No, raids collapse because they suddenly need hundreds of wipes for the fourth boss and onwards.

The whipe count is just an example and yeah it might be a bad one but I usually didn't see 20+ pulls on Mythic bosses until you reached the later bosses of the tier and those are meant to be hard. The fact that you've yet killed it is not a reason for it to be nerfed, it's perfectly doable 832 guilds have killed it so far. It's okay to not be able to clear mythic, it's supposed to be hard.

Since you didn't talk about PA system, I guess you're among the ones that like it? The difficulty was never the problem, at least not in my circle of friends. The only thing that made people quit was that you could never be "done" with your character.

[mauserr]

A crit vers 220 for dh is without a doubt superior to a 230 mastery haste, dont try to bear the truth when you are clueless about stat weights among classes tyvm.

My case was funny - I had a 385 crit/versa ring with socket on my DH. As far as I remember when I was looking for ring slot upgrades using purely stat weights from a raidbot sim imported to PAWN, looking at rings without a socket, only the Azshara ring was an upgrade at only by 2-3% and that was on Mythic difficulty. 385 crit versa ring with a socket was almost endgame... that is ridiculous. Granted, there was a lot less stamina on it, but still, if you only go by DPS, yeah

[Krille]

My case was funny - I had a 385 crit/versa ring with socket on my DH. As far as I remember when I was looking for ring slot upgrades using purely stat weights from a raidbot sim imported to PAWN, looking at rings without a socket, only the Azshara ring was an upgrade at only by 2-3% and that was on Mythic difficulty. 385 crit versa ring with a socket was almost endgame... that is ridiculous. Granted, there was a lot less stamina on it, but still, if you only go by DPS, yeah

Having a few lower pieces is fine, usually only rings that makes it a thing anyway. I used 415 + 430 rings when killing Azshara first time, 425 offhand. My ilvl was 437 or something. Meanwhile you see people run around with 448 thinking they're the shit, it's fine i'll just do 10k more dps than you x)

[Hctaz]

A crit vers 220 for dh is without a doubt superior to a 230 mastery haste, dont try to bear the truth when you are clueless about stat weights among classes tyvm.

You're going to have to show me some specific examples then, because stat weighting for Havoc DH shows them to be very dependent on primary stat with crit, vers, and haste all being very close secondaries to obtain versus mastery which is garbage. I don't know the specific stat weight for mastery, but I would bet that the increase to agility would probably heavily outweigh the negatives from having mastery on a single piece of gear.

So... basically you're wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

My case was funny - I had a 385 crit/versa ring with socket on my DH. As far as I remember when I was looking for ring slot upgrades using purely stat weights from a raidbot sim imported to PAWN, looking at rings without a socket, only the Azshara ring was an upgrade at only by 2-3% and that was on Mythic difficulty. 385 crit versa ring with a socket was almost endgame... that is ridiculous. Granted, there was a lot less stamina on it, but still, if you only go by DPS, yeah

That's purely because sockets are stupid busted and completely invalidates the entire argument I was making. I specifically said that item level is more important if you remove sockets. Obviously a piece of socketed gear breaks that rule, ESPECIALLY a ring which contains no main stat whatsoever which is the defining factor in a higher item level being better than a lower one.

[Frozenbro]

So... basically you're wrong.

Weapon DPS=13.32 Critical Strike=5.36 Versatility=5.16 Haste=4.38 Mastery=3.29 Off Hand Weapon DPS=3.15 Agility=2.88

I didnt even optimize my sim and these are my stat weights, like i said, clueless lmao, nice one truth bearer, here raidbots link https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...TqQ9Lckj264kiw

But remember guys DHs are...

very dependent on primary stat

VeRy DePeNdEnT oN pRiMaRy StAt BrUh.