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  1. #181
    Plz...someone tell me why a female mary sue cant exist?
    Im really curious...

    There are SO MANY MALE "mary sues" in the media...an infinite amount...

    So...why cant sylvanas be a mary sue?

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Plz...someone tell me why a female mary sue cant exist?
    Im really curious...

    There are SO MANY MALE "mary sues" in the media...an infinite amount...

    So...why cant sylvanas be a mary sue?
    Incels, that's why.
    They always told me I would miss my family... but I never miss from close range.

  3. #183
    Ya'know, before someone linked it at the beginning of this thread, I had no idea that the term was supposed to pertain *by definition* to female characters... because people on the internet sure don't use it exclusively for females.

    I saw so many people call Thrall a Mary Sue during Cata it made my head hurt.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Plz...someone tell me why a female mary sue cant exist?
    Im really curious...

    There are SO MANY MALE "mary sues" in the media...an infinite amount...

    So...why cant sylvanas be a mary sue?
    This is a really stupid justification. There's just as many Gary Stus there are Mary Sues. It's just that you're called a sexist asshole for pointing out the Mary Sues. Sylvanas, Jaina Proudmoore, and Tyrande are ALL Mary Sue characters. Just because there's a bunch of Gary Stus doesn't justify the large collections of Mary Sues in popular stories.

  5. #185
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Tell me, in details, how she succeded in capturing the Val'kyr queen in Stormheim?
    Re-posting point #1, with the important part put in bold:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbyfists View Post
    1. They need to be able to do anything without failing. The only time they fail is to fail at solving one problem and immediately find a better solution. If she were ever to fail, the entire cast and crew could not find another solution and thus the whole world / crew is doomed.
    She failed capturing the Val'kyr, but then we find out a couple expansions later she "immediately found a better solution" with the deal with the Jailer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    She lost her chance at immortality so she had to serve yet another master for a new chance...in case you haven't noticed Sylvanas isn't the sort of person who likes serving others, doing what she is told.
    In other words: she failed... but her failure was inconsequential because she found another solution soon after. And as for 'serving others', we know she's working alongside the Jailer, not under him.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #186
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Re-posting point #1, with the important part put in bold:

    She failed capturing the Val'kyr, but then we find out a couple expansions later she "immediately found a better solution" with the deal with the Jailer.

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    In other words: she failed... but her failure was inconsequential because she found another solution soon after. And as for 'serving others', we know she's working alongside the Jailer, not under him.
    Immediately found a new and better solution?

    It literally takes from v7.0 to v9.0 in game, before that solution presents itself. Each expansion usually takes 1 year in-game (2 years real time)... Can you please explain the word IMMEDIATELY for me, because TWO YEARS doesn't not seem very immediate to me.
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2020-01-01 at 08:21 PM.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This is a really stupid justification. There's just as many Gary Stus there are Mary Sues. It's just that you're called a sexist asshole for pointing out the Mary Sues. Sylvanas, Jaina Proudmoore, and Tyrande are ALL Mary Sue characters. Just because there's a bunch of Gary Stus doesn't justify the large collections of Mary Sues in popular stories.
    How is Tyrande a Mary Sue?

    She had to "get empowered" in a supposedly life-risking ritual and team up with Malfurion to take out one Val'kyr, then Nathanos leaves having gotten pretty much what he wanted and needed, gloating at Tyrande all the while.

    Her race are only ever relevant to be glorified target dummies for the Horde. She's portrayed as being so unreasonable that she pushed the Nightborne to the Horde single-handedly and people constantly make fun of her being distressed over Malfurion in Val'sharah. Oh, and she, a 10.000+ year old fighter was taught a lesson in patience by a human King not even a fraction of her lifespan.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    How is Tyrande a Mary Sue?

    She had to "get empowered" in a supposedly life-risking ritual and team up with Malfurion to take out one Val'kyr, then Nathanos leaves having gotten pretty much what he wanted and needed, gloating at Tyrande all the while.

    Her race are only ever relevant to be glorified target dummies for the Horde. She's portrayed as being so unreasonable that she pushed the Nightborne to the Horde single-handedly and people constantly make fun of her being distressed over Malfurion in Val'sharah. Oh, and she, a 10.000+ year old fighter was taught a lesson in patience by a human King not even a fraction of her lifespan.
    She's the chosen of Ysera, she survived a ritual that has killed everyone else that has attempted it, she has never suffered a defeated in battle, and she literally has NO flaws. So...yeah. Definitely a Mary Sue. Just because the night elves aren't written as being powerful doesn't change the fact that Tyrande HERSELF is a Mary Sue.

  9. #189
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Immediately found a new and better solution?

    It literally takes from v7.0 to v9.0 in game, before that solution presents itself.
    False. Sylvanas was already displaying new powers as early as 8.0's opening cinematic, meaning that her deal with the Jailer happened during Legion.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. Sylvanas was already displaying new powers as early as 8.0's opening cinematic, meaning that her deal with the Jailer happened during Legion.
    Didn't they actually say recently that she made the deal with the Jailer during Edge of Night?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    Incels, that's why.
    Because Mary Sue's are freaking annoying, no matter their gender. We already have a big male Sue in WoW in the form of Manduin, but he isn't being shoved down our throats as hard as the morally grey lady. Besides, the thread is about Sylvie. If you want to complain about incels, the offtopic forum is =====> that way.



    @Shadoowpunk other franchises having plenty of male Sue's is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    She's the chosen of Ysera, she survived a ritual that has killed everyone else that has attempted it, she has never suffered a defeated in battle, and she literally has NO flaws. So...yeah. Definitely a Mary Sue. Just because the night elves aren't written as being powerful doesn't change the fact that Tyrande HERSELF is a Mary Sue.
    Tyrande definitely smells of Mary Sue, but the narrative doesn't bend over (not yet, at least) to give her the spotlight.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    What was Lukes training when he used force to do what targeting computers couldn't? Couple hours tops being shot at by a stun ball with one deflect. This is below young ling level.

    Between first 2 movies? 0 and he was able to force pull a sabre.

    Then few days with Yoda, fails to Vader. Then no more training between Empire and Return of the jedi. Where his first action is to force choke 2 jabba guards (Dark side skill who the hell taught him that?), one successful and one fail force persuasion. Then beats Vader later on.

    Rey was shown to have more training than Luke with her time with Luke then Leia who was trained at a high level herself.
    They never address this point, that Luke did completely absurd things in the original trilogy. Somehow to them, that's ok, but Rey is a Mary Sue.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkarra View Post
    Mary Sue
    I don't think Mary Sue means what you think it means.
    Why did you create a new thread? Use the search function and post in existing threads!
    Why did you necro a thread?

  14. #194
    Sylvanas is not a Mary Sue. But she's a victim of bad writing nonetheless. Certain examples that make it appearent are these:


    1) She failed to stop Arthas. If she was a mary sue, she would've kicked Arthas' ass back to Northrend and saved Quel'thalas.

    2) She was blind to Varimathras/Putress' schemes until it was too late.

    3) She was all around a terrible Warchief in comparison to Orgrim or Thrall, and led them to the jaws of death and destruction for the third time in the faction's history.

    4) She blew up her own carefully created plans out of spite/idiocy, for example, the Mak'gora and Teldrassil.

    If she was a legit mary sue, she would've been successful at everything and even her enemies would've liked her. Instead she fails. Everytime.

    Admittedly, I am still salty over Saurfang/Bolvar fight, but oh well.
    Last edited by Dark Succ; 2020-01-01 at 09:37 PM.
    "You stand at a dangerous crossroads. You can either stay here and be slaughtered by human hands... Or choose a darker path... To freedom."

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Because Mary Sue's are freaking annoying, no matter their gender. We already have a big male Sue in WoW in the form of Manduin, but he isn't being shoved down our throats as hard as the morally grey lady. Besides, the thread is about Sylvie. If you want to complain about incels, the offtopic forum is =====> that way.



    @Shadoowpunk other franchises having plenty of male Sue's is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

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    Tyrande definitely smells of Mary Sue, but the narrative doesn't bend over (not yet, at least) to give her the spotlight.
    A massive portion of Val'sharah was dedicated to Tyrande. Everything about Darkshore is about Tyrande. She even outright refuses the orders of the King, which is treason in a monarchy, and nothing bad happens to her as a result. She's totally gotten the spotlight. She just hasn't gotten it as much as others. And she's getting her own big story in Shadowlands.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    She even outright refuses the orders of the King, which is treason in a monarchy, and nothing bad happens to her as a result.
    The High-King title doesn't hold that much weight, especially in Anduins hands. The Alliance is that - An Alliance. No race can claim dominion over another, unlike Warchief, whose orders are absolute.
    Last edited by Dark Succ; 2020-01-01 at 09:51 PM.
    "You stand at a dangerous crossroads. You can either stay here and be slaughtered by human hands... Or choose a darker path... To freedom."

  17. #197
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Didn't they actually say recently that she made the deal with the Jailer during Edge of Night?
    Unsure. All I recall from the 'Edge of Night' is that the Lich King's remaining Val'kyr pledge themselves to Sylvanas and one saves her from death.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    It's existed for ages.

    I think this has more to do with you than anything else.
    You are correct. It was coined in 1973, however, I never saw it on these, or the official forums, until recently. I probably worded that wrong, but yeah, mostly me...

  19. #199
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TragedyAnn View Post
    Ya'know, before someone linked it at the beginning of this thread, I had no idea that the term was supposed to pertain *by definition* to female characters... because people on the internet sure don't use it exclusively for females.

    I saw so many people call Thrall a Mary Sue during Cata it made my head hurt.
    The *ORIGINAL* Mary Sue, was a parody of badly written (usually) female self-insert characters in Star Trek fanfiction. There is nothing in the concept itself that says a Mary Sue has to be male or female. In early Star Trek fanfiction, they were *usually* female, but that's just in Star Trek. The concept of a Mary Sue works just as well for male characters as female characters.

  20. #200
    Not really. I wouldn't even give her a high percentile. From the well known key points that form a mary sue she lacks some of the most notable, like being an author self-insert or being loved by everyone, even her enemies. For this to be true Anduin would need to be salavating at her sight like the dipshit that writes her character, which already brings us to what she really is, the waifu of some sorry fuck that fell up in Blizzard's internal hierarchy until he was allowed to shape expansion narratives around his dream girl.

    She is just an OP waifu and we are stuck playing her character arc as spectators, the goal is clear as well, ascension to some form of divinity. She will be WoW's Kerrigan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post
    Sylvanas is not a Mary Sue. But she's a victim of bad writing nonetheless. Certain examples that make it appearent are these:


    1) She failed to stop Arthas. If she was a mary sue, she would've kicked Arthas' ass back to Northrend and saved Quel'thalas.

    2) She was blind to Varimathras/Putress' schemes until it was too late.

    3) She was all around a terrible Warchief in comparison to Orgrim or Thrall, and led them to the jaws of death and destruction for the third time in the faction's history.

    4) She blew up her own carefully created plans out of spite/idiocy, for example, the Mak'gora and Teldrassil.

    If she was a legit mary sue, she would've been successful at everything and even her enemies would've liked her. Instead she fails. Everytime.

    Admittedly, I am still salty over Saurfang/Bolvar fight, but oh well.
    The issue with your points is that while being poorly written is the main cause of her terrible character at the moment, this wouldn't neccessarily negate being a mary sue (again she isn't one imho). For one the characters in WoW don't really belong to anyone anymore (with a few exceptions which are purely based on courtesy from one author to another, like Thrall), which means if the writing team changes, the character can become someone elses self-insert for example. Jaina has pretty much become the self-insert of Golden, doesn't apply to Sylvanas, but it's not really an argument against a character being a mary sue. So failings in the distant past don't mean much today.

    The oher points you mentioned have been kinda retconned by now. There are hints that she might have known of varimathras/putress all along, same with her "tactical failures", which were just sacrifices to the Maw and various other things. The only reason she keeps failing is pretty much that Blizzard, no matter much of an idiot the lead narrative designer is, can't have the players keep losing. Comporate money >> somone's bodypillow.
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2020-01-02 at 02:48 AM.
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