BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[OriginalName]

I can't find the numbers, but I wonder how many pulls each of the vanilla bosses took to clear. I think that is a much better indicator of how difficult a boss is. [snip] If you took away the player's knowledge and skill level present in retail, but gave them modern advantages of you know ressing in the instance near the boss and have a full 7 days worth of attempts in a raid lockout, he would have died sooner than that 154 weeks.

This is exactly why BWL, AQ, Naxx wont be demolished with ease by your average guild.

[Zequill]

If you are in a guild that never cleared those raid or only few did them recently, there will still be a learning to do. Not as bad as it as 15 years ago, but you will still wipe a couple of time learning bosses. If you are in a guild that have already clear those recently in a private server then sure, it will be demolished... but you have already done your wiping on a private server...

[deenman]

I call bullshit.



Why do you think these bosses received nerfs?
Because their difficulty was above the intended.

LFR bosses are meant to be facerolled, if any boss is making a fuss, it gets nerfed to that point.
That's the point i'm making, LFR isn't even supposed to pretend it has any sort of difficulty, telling me that Blizzard does actually nerf LFR Bosses just proves this to me.

how is it bullshit?an easier boss will still be harder for a non organized group in comparison to a harder one

[munkeyinorbit]

Whatever really, my point was that I think the average player who does MC right now, irrelevant of how easy the content is, is not good enough to clear even basic stuff like AQ in a year/few months, because they simply don't have the mentality, or their guild isn't constructed with longevity in mind.

They will all crash and burn, so if you wanna be raiding in AQ, you better find yourself a guild with 30-40 min clear times, now or you'll be very sorry.

Quoting this so I can refer to it and have a massive fucking laugh at it.

AQ40 will be pug cleared in the first week. Naxx will be PUG cleared in the first week. I mean come on. Naxx will be as hard as an Average Joe fresh alt run on retail normal difficulty. You know the ones where you've just dinged 120 and you've ground out your 8 benthic 385 pieces, got a weapon and done some world quests? Your neck is 57 and you have 2 green esscences. That's how hard naxx will be. There is nothing in Naxx that is remotely hard. It's all worked out. The hardest part is probably getting the mats to get into Naxx.

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this exactly. many if not ALL 40 man raids drop bis pieces for the entire game, time wise. if you are in a 2 day a week guild, theres not enough time between phases to gear everyone up to sufficiently squash the gear check that is pachwerk. that is the only boss that will wall guilds who are not ready for him.

its a different kind of difficulty.

What dps is required. I bet everyone in my MC run already meets the standard and we are all trash geared (except our tanks. We've been lucky there). And that's still 2 years away.

[xpose]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

I don't think anyone is doubting this. I would be surprised if they weren't cleared day 1

[OriginalName]

Quoting this so I can refer to it and have a massive fucking laugh at it.

AQ40 will be pug cleared in the first week. Naxx will be PUG cleared in the first week. I mean come on. Naxx will be as hard as an Average Joe fresh alt run on retail normal difficulty. You know the ones where you've just dinged 120 and you've ground out your 8 benthic 385 pieces, got a weapon and done some world quests? Your neck is 57 and you have 2 green esscences. That's how hard naxx will be. There is nothing in Naxx that is remotely hard. It's all worked out. The hardest part is probably getting the mats to get into Naxx.

Where did I say that the encounters are hard for the best players, I have put emphasis on that classic raiding is very easy, but for some reason the overwhelming majority of players can not clear MC in under 2 hours.

A guild which imposes such lax standards isn't going to stay running once AQ opens, because they simply don't have the time to clear more than one raid a week. This isn't retail, where once you go to the next tier, everything before it, becomes irrelevant, BRE is always going to be the bis pvp 2hander in the game, thunderfury is always going to be bis, choker isn't replaced until aq, wild growth spaulders are bis for paladins, shamans, druids until naxx.

Your members are gonna leave for better pastures, if they don't have access to items they want, just because your guild was so poorly organized that you couldn't fit all raids you need into your schedule.

[Surfd]

Both BWL and AQ will be cleared first day they come out,BWL in around 3 hours tops,maybe less.

It'll be puggable first day for all of the raids. Raid comes out. First day. PUGs will clear it. More groups will clear it first day than people will clear a normal raid in 8.3.

Aq 40 maybe. Not so sure BWL will be clearable in one go by your average pug, especially if they "fixed" things like being able to avoid Shadowflame by hiding behind Neffs Throne.

BWL still has several "gates" that could crimp successful full clears provided you can't cheese your way past them. Onyxia Hide cloaks being one. Rolling a Bad combo on Chromaggus being another (I remember certain color combos on him being WAY harder than others).

Also, there are pugs and then there are "pugs". If you try some of those raids with your typical LFR crowd, expect a WORLD of pain, as mechanics actually matter for like 70% of those fights. Especially in AQ40. Cthun where the fight lasts longer than 20 seconds is going to be awesome when people start chaining eye beams :P

[xpose]

Quoting this so I can refer to it and have a massive fucking laugh at it.

AQ40 will be pug cleared in the first week. Naxx will be PUG cleared in the first week. I mean come on. Naxx will be as hard as an Average Joe fresh alt run on retail normal difficulty. You know the ones where you've just dinged 120 and you've ground out your 8 benthic 385 pieces, got a weapon and done some world quests? Your neck is 57 and you have 2 green esscences. That's how hard naxx will be. There is nothing in Naxx that is remotely hard. It's all worked out. The hardest part is probably getting the mats to get into Naxx.

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What dps is required. I bet everyone in my MC run already meets the standard and we are all trash geared (except our tanks. We've been lucky there). And that's still 2 years away.

7 minute soft enrage. 3.8 million life and hateful strikes hitting for 7k on t2 warriors. So no, MC geared players cannot currently kill him

[Nitros14]

Patchwerk was always more of a healing/tank check than a DPS check. You only need like 350 dps per dps to kill him.

Loatheb is the actual DPS check in Naxxramas. Well and Kel'Thuzad, but if you got that far you can kill him.


The weird thing about classic is guilds are using flasks and world buffs and shit for Molten Core. People didn't flask their whole raid until Naxxramas in actual vanilla. Times have changed.

Also, I wouldn't really want to have to explain Four Horsemen rotations to a bunch of pugs but that's just me.

[Drefan]

Any raid tier will be cleared by a somewhat prepared guild during the first reset even on retail. Where any "decent" guild clears HC the first week so that they may move on to Mythic in week 2 where the only "long" standing challenge is found. Does this mean that anyone not raiding mythic is not having fun because they are not clearing the "hardest" content? Definitely not, so just be happy playing your version of the game that suits you the best.

[pinkz]

What difference does it make?

You mean people have learned in 15 years how to use pots, wizard oil, flasks, potions, stack buffs and itemize vs showing up in greens and yelling “PULL!”?

So bosses don’t have 5 phases, you don’t need players to nuke adds or set up stacks/spread out etc. SO WHAT?

You’re basically complaining that people want to play a game they enjoy in an version/era they loved or never got to see?

MC was cleared in classic WOW on day 6 of launch, with players in green's and blue's, subpar or near no enchants, with alot of players not even 60's

Classic is not Van WOW, but still good. there are players who played van wow thru all the patches/phases, classic wow blizzard picked a deeper patch. also you have players with 15 years of unauthorized server experience that have dealt with raids, etc that were increased in difficulty / players nerfed

[munkeyinorbit]

Where did I say that the encounters are hard for the best players, I have put emphasis on that classic raiding is very easy, but for some reason the overwhelming majority of players can not clear MC in under 2 hours.

A guild which imposes such lax standards isn't going to stay running once AQ opens, because they simply don't have the time to clear more than one raid a week. This isn't retail, where once you go to the next tier, everything before it, becomes irrelevant, BRE is always going to be the bis pvp 2hander in the game, thunderfury is always going to be bis, choker isn't replaced until aq, wild growth spaulders are bis for paladins, shamans, druids until naxx.

Your members are gonna leave for better pastures, if they don't have access to items they want, just because your guild was so poorly organized that you couldn't fit all raids you need into your schedule.

And yet you used an example where you ran a raid that took twice as long as normal and decided that it is impossible to clear more than 1 raid a week for these people. That is your reasoning here. Not mine. They cleared MC on one night but because it took them 4 hours it makes it impossible to raid a second night. No. You gotta be able to do it in 40 min. Otherwise it's impossible.

My shitty, third rate group have no gear and we clear mc then ony in under 2 hours (I know. It makes sense to do it the other way round). Almost everyone in the run have cleared MC when relevant a total of 3 times in 15 years (first time being 5 years ago). Guess what? Were going straight into bwl. We are going to assign 3 hours a week to it and I bet it's done in 2 weeks. We are the sort of shit tier, 3 month leveling to 60 bads that are absolutely crushing content.

We got a PS guy with a lot of xp running it. He kept logs last week so he could analyse our future path once bwl is released. See who's jacking off and needs help. See if we should be doing bwl or if we need Xtra time in mc. He's just like "ummmm, we good enuff to clear bwl. It'll take a couple of nights to clear first time round but we should be down to one raid a week for mc\bwl within a month"

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7 minute soft enrage. 3.8 million life and hateful strikes hitting for 7k on t2 warriors. So no, MC geared players cannot currently kill him

So what you are saying is that all that is holding us back is having 1 tank being able to survive 7k hits? With 8 heals and 4 tanks (a couple of reserves) we only need to be pulling 328 dps? Or maybe if we bring 23 dps doing 400 dps we can bring 5 extra healing druids that could also BR fuck ups.

So all we need is one geared tank? Yeah. Naxx is going to be hard.

[OriginalName]

And yet you used an example where you ran a raid that took twice as long as normal and decided that it is impossible to clear more than 1 raid a week for these people. That is your reasoning here. Not mine. They cleared MC on one night but because it took them 4 hours it makes it impossible to raid a second night. No. You gotta be able to do it in 40 min. Otherwise it's impossible.

My shitty, third rate group have no gear and we clear mc then ony in under 2 hours (I know. It makes sense to do it the other way round). Almost everyone in the run have cleared MC when relevant a total of 3 times in 15 years (first time being 5 years ago). Guess what? Were going straight into bwl. We are going to assign 3 hours a week to it and I bet it's done in 2 weeks. We are the sort of shit tier, 3 month leveling to 60 bads that are absolutely crushing content.

We got a PS guy with a lot of xp running it. He kept logs last week so he could analyse our future path once bwl is released. See who's jacking off and needs help. See if we should be doing bwl or if we need Xtra time in mc. He's just like "ummmm, we good enuff to clear bwl. It'll take a couple of nights to clear first time round but we should be down to one raid a week for mc\bwl within a month"

Your approach to classic raiding is incredibly shortsighted, ofcourse you will clear the raid, anyone can clear any classic raid. Will your members want to be clearing bwl exclusively for items that are worse than mc pieces?

Or when AQ is out, how are you gonna find the time to get ZG, MC, BWL done in the same week? You're gonna hemorrhage members, because you guys aren't approaching classic raiding with any forethought.

My point was never, you can't clear x content, because you will, you just won't be able to do anything else with your allotted and limited raid time because you guys decided to be super casual, not make a business of using consumables, recruiting slackers and hybrids.

[Flarelaine]

But hes correct and each will be cleared within the week of their release (and access).

Probably.

But I don't give a flying flamingo for some guild, eager for their 15 minutes, clearing on the first week. Good on them, but I only care for how long it will take me. Though as long as we have the laughs in raid chat, taking longer is still cool.

[Kithelle]

Yet I'll still have infinitely more fun than I'd ever have on retail

I'm sorry retail is too hard for you to enjoy

[Nitros14]

So what you are saying is that all that is holding us back is having 1 tank being able to survive 7k hits? With 8 heals and 4 tanks (a couple of reserves) we only need to be pulling 328 dps? Or maybe if we bring 23 dps doing 400 dps we can bring 5 extra healing druids that could also BR fuck ups.

So all we need is one geared tank? Yeah. Naxx is going to be hard.

Patchwerk hateful strikes the highest HP target in melee range that isn't top on threat and is also one of the top 4 on threat. Hateful strikes are about 8k looking at youtube videos. Sometimes as high as 8500. If you don't have three hateful tanks I assume melee are going to die one by one, even if they step in the slime.

I don't see any way eight healers don't go OOM or fall behind unless you killed it stupidly fast. Most videos are ~12 healers.

[Charo]

iirc the days are counted from the moment the boss was killable in theory. So Onyxia and Rag started counting the day of Vanilla release. And Kael'thas is counted from the release date of TBC.

Not shown here are for example Zul'gurub that was cleared on release data, same with Zul'aman.

How is this accurate for MoP/WoD/Legion/BfA then if the raids aren't killable until their respective patches? Seems like it is unfair to judge retail with the same metric.

[Ielenia]

He is correct, but it's still bait.

...and just to point out: He's still wrong in some way. BWL/AQ/Naxx are gonna be super easy and will be cleared by top guilds very fast in Classic, however this doesn't change the fact that vanilla was once considered very hard and that it took a long time and a lot of practice for the guilds back then to clear the content.

I think the only reason that sentence was true was not because of difficulty, but because players, back then, had... I'm guessing roughly 10% of the tools we have, today:
• SimulationCraft did not exist...
• WoWHead did not exist (yes, Allakhazam and Thottbot were a thing, but were so bare-bones compared to WoWHead)...
• YouTube was still a very 'niche' thing, created in 2005, so little to no video guides...
• Widely-spread and widely-available class and boss guides did not exist...
• Etc, etc...

[clevin]

No one thought that MC would take awhile because of the fights or gear. What we all thought was that it might be tight to do all the rep etc in time to do it the first week.

Also, quit attention seeking. We all know classic is easy. We play it because we like it, not because it's 'hard'. If you don't, go do something you do like.

[Zuvio]

~snip~People put MC being cleared so fast down to 1.12: trust me, it would have been cleared in the same time even in an earlier patch.~snip~

I don't trust you and you are wrong about this 'fact' of yours. MC with these talents is a joke, I agree.