BWL/AQ/Naxx will be demolished with ease.

[Vampyrr]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

Issue is a few of the fights in Vanilla were damn near unkillable due to tuning or bugs and Blizzard then was extremely slow to push out fixes. Now we can sometimes see SAME DAY hotfixes for issues that slipped through.

[Xath]

It'll be puggable first day for all of the raids. Raid comes out. First day. PUGs will clear it. More groups will clear it first day than people will clear a normal raid in 8.3.

Not true for Naxx lol. The thing that will kill people in naxx will be the sheer amount of damage taken. Naxx 40 had a signficant number of abilities that dealt more damage in vanills than they did in naxx 25 in wrath not a higher percentage more damage flat out. Also people have had 10 plus years running it on private servers I would hope they can clear it.

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Retail 660 pulls in one week on one boss, 100.000.000 gold debt and sniping drops from other servers, running 40 mythic + in a week before. vs. 1-3 pulls + 1€ for cola to stay awake.

hmmm both cleared first week but one looks like more effort

Do people not understand how much time developing strategies takes? This is why if your average top 50 video guild suddenly decided to go 7 days plus day raids for a tier they likely wouldn't crack the top 10. It's very different to develop a strat vs copying an already created one.

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And yet you used an example where you ran a raid that took twice as long as normal and decided that it is impossible to clear more than 1 raid a week for these people. That is your reasoning here. Not mine. They cleared MC on one night but because it took them 4 hours it makes it impossible to raid a second night. No. You gotta be able to do it in 40 min. Otherwise it's impossible.

My shitty, third rate group have no gear and we clear mc then ony in under 2 hours (I know. It makes sense to do it the other way round). Almost everyone in the run have cleared MC when relevant a total of 3 times in 15 years (first time being 5 years ago). Guess what? Were going straight into bwl. We are going to assign 3 hours a week to it and I bet it's done in 2 weeks. We are the sort of shit tier, 3 month leveling to 60 bads that are absolutely crushing content.

We got a PS guy with a lot of xp running it. He kept logs last week so he could analyse our future path once bwl is released. See who's jacking off and needs help. See if we should be doing bwl or if we need Xtra time in mc. He's just like "ummmm, we good enuff to clear bwl. It'll take a couple of nights to clear first time round but we should be down to one raid a week for mc\bwl within a month"

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So what you are saying is that all that is holding us back is having 1 tank being able to survive 7k hits? With 8 heals and 4 tanks (a couple of reserves) we only need to be pulling 328 dps? Or maybe if we bring 23 dps doing 400 dps we can bring 5 extra healing druids that could also BR fuck ups.

So all we need is one geared tank? Yeah. Naxx is going to be hard.

Lol you are playing on the 1.12 patch and it's a lot more than just tanks that need health w/e I look forward to the crying once people hit the cintent that patch retune is actually meant for.

[ADA203]

More of a time sink than difficult by today’s standards.

[Dekkers]

A lot of guilds cant even down Rag and Domo consistently.

[Caperfin]

A lot of guilds cant even down Rag and Domo consistently.

That must be a very very small percent of the population considering how many guides/info there is out there for a 15year old game...

[Kralljin]

That must be a very very small percent of the population considering how many guides/info there is out there for a 15year old game...

I doubt the problem is a lack of information, but a lack of willingness to process it.

If you tell your entire raid to use consumables (and they actually do it) pretty much any boss in MC rolls over automatically, because the dps increase allows you to bypass almost any mechanic.
If you however, have people that aren't doing any research on their character and just equip whatever they want, do not use any (Fire resistance) Potions, Tanks just not giving a shit about taunting, i can see that rag can turn into a struggle.

Let's not forget, people also love to showcase "how few" people actually clear heroic on retail, would love to see some stats on how many people have reached 60 and killed Rag.

[chronia]

And yet i am watching streams every week of seasoned retail raiders wiping continuosly on Garr and Geddon and Shazzrah.

Yes, the top guilds that have been raiding this same content for over a decade will steamroll any and all content in Classic, that does not mean it's extremely easy. Simple yes, easy no.

I find that pretty hard to believe that seasoned raiders would wipe over and over on those bosses.
for example i'm in a very casual guild made of op ppl that played on my original realm back in the day. Some ppl in the guild haven't raided in years, some ppl still raid in BFA and everything in between.

We also don't even have 40 ppl yet, our first Onyxia kill was with +-20 ppl, and not because we wanted to splitraid, but because that was the number of ppl we had available, we also did the whole of MC with well less than 40 players, starting with around 20 and killing rag with around 30 in raid. Our highest wipe count before the first kill was 4, which was on Major Domo, since that was the hardest too coordinate with a less than optimised grp.

But if 20 to 30 casual players, generally not geared in pre-bis, nor chasing worldbuffs or using a large amount of consumes and stuff can kill every MC boss in a few attempts, i really have a hard time believing that there are veteran raiders from retail that are wiping continiusly on bosses like Garr, Geddon and Shazzrah.

[Monster Hunter]

What difference does it make?

You mean people have learned in 15 years how to use pots, wizard oil, flasks, potions, stack buffs and itemize vs showing up in greens and yelling “PULL!”?

So bosses don’t have 5 phases, you don’t need players to nuke adds or set up stacks/spread out etc. SO WHAT?

You’re basically complaining that people want to play a game they enjoy in an version/era they loved or never got to see?

I feel sorry for people like kungen who have basicly been living and making a living in his case on the reputation of having cleared this "hard" content first.

I can't imagine how it must feel to have been in a "hardcore" guild back then, raiding nearly every night then spending years after bragging about how leet you used to be and how hard that was only for Classic to come along and basicly just trivialise all thows hundreds of hours of grinding by basicly just showing it was the players lack of knowledge that made it hard not the content.

It actualy makes me glad I only got up to bwl/aq20 first time round. Its bad enough thinking back to some conversations I had over the last decade where I'd big up my vanilla and tbc raiding record and talk about how hard it was, deep down I did have my doubts that it was actualy as hard as I made it out to be, but having classic come along and show so clearly how much of complete melt me and the rest of my raid team was back then has been a bitter pill haha.

Ahh well at least it's a small comfort that others wasted far more time than I did back then

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I doubt the problem is a lack of information, but a lack of willingness to process it.

If you tell your entire raid to use consumables (and they actually do it) pretty much any boss in MC rolls over automatically, because the dps increase allows you to bypass almost any mechanic.
If you however, have people that aren't doing any research on their character and just equip whatever they want, do not use any (Fire resistance) Potions, Tanks just not giving a shit about taunting, i can see that rag can turn into a struggle.

Let's not forget, people also love to showcase "how few" people actually clear heroic on retail, would love to see some stats on how many people have reached 60 and killed Rag.

Acording to warcraft logs as of now.
8,560 guilds ha e 10/10 mc

338 guilds are 9/10

93 guilds are 8/10

33 guilds are 7/10

Though that's obvs only the guilds who bother to log raids so there's no über casual guilds. But it does still show of those who bother to raid mc the vast majority have likely cleared it.

[Kralljin]

But it does still show of those who bother to raid mc the vast majority have likely cleared it.

It only shows that those who bother to log clear MC.

Correlation ain't causation.

[deenman]

It's literally the same argument why Classic bosses are "more difficult", not because the bosses are somehow challenging but people simply wipe because the majority of the group is incompetent.

However, the crucial difference here is that in Classic, a single mechanic can and will kill you, whereas in LFR, anything that is instakill is nonexistant or gets nerfed asap.
A Boss that can actually kill people in a quick fashion is generally more difficult than a boss that cannot.

but thats not what i said,i was saying that an lfr boss can be harder for a random pug than the same boss on hc for an organaized group,even when facing it the first time,its not bullshit as this has happened to me

[Monster Hunter]

It only shows that those who bother to log clear MC.

Correlation ain't causation.

Good thing that this is the same as a politocal poll and not a correlation of unrelated info then.

As most guilds log nowadays or at least have one person in the team logging this is as close to the full picture your going to get and what it's showing is shits easy fam.

[deenman]

And yet i am watching streams every week of seasoned retail raiders wiping continuosly on Garr and Geddon and Shazzrah.

Yes, the top guilds that have been raiding this same content for over a decade will steamroll any and all content in Classic, that does not mean it's extremely easy. Simple yes, easy no.

yeah im sure people that have killed bosses like kj or azshara in the first weeks are somehow wiping on bosses with one mecanic,yep,sounds tottaly legit,unless they are raiding it alone with 39 trolls that just stand in the group than yeah i guess

[Ielenia]

Retail stuff get cleared pretty fast too. When people say Vanilla is hard, they didn't mean for modern gamers of 2020. They meant relative to its time period. Vanilla still has highest average times for the raids to be cleared. The times just got lower as time went on.

I see many claiming that "vanilla is harder than modern" so I'm not sure they're on the same page as you are.

In my opinion, the reason vanilla (and TBC as well) have such long times to clear the instances is due mostly to two factors:
• One: lack of tools and communication. By 'communication' I mean boss guides and strategies. If you wanted to find out how to kill X boss, you'd have to ask a guild that already killed said boss. There was little to no online guides.
• Two: the amount of "out-of-raids" requirements one would need, like attunements, grinding resistance gear, grinding rep, etc.

[Kralljin]

As most guilds log nowadays or at least have one person in the team logging this is as close to the full picture your going to get and what it's showing is shits easy fam.

Simply because it's the only data we have, doesn't mean that data is useable.

Doesn't even answer what i was asking in the first place, because i asked "how many people that are 60 have killed rag", not "how many people entered mc and have killed rag".

According to Warcraft logs, 95% of all guilds that entered EP HC also killed Heroic Azshara.
Yet when i check Wowhead, only 22% of all profiles actually have AotC, so yeah, Warcraftlogs is not representative for the whole playerbase.

Organized groups (which always have logs) will breeze through MC easy time, no question about it.

In your set of data you simply have a massive blindspot, yet this blindspot is precisly what i'm interested in.
Let alone that pugs don't even show up in your data.

but thats not what i said,i was saying that an lfr boss can be harder for a random pug than the same boss on hc for an organaized group,even when facing it the first time,its not bullshit as this has happened to me

What you are basically saying is: The perception of difficulty varies from player to player.
What a revelation.

[Headayke]

They will absolutely be cleared faster, people have had 15 years to get things right and it has paid off already with leveling, phase 1 raiding and quick BG's because people know what they are doing. You had 1/3rd the guilds that cleared MC compared to then and today so the extra 2/3rds of the max level player base ready for BWL means it will definitely be cleared at a faster rate then back in Vanilla.

[Monster Hunter]

Simply because it's the only data we have, doesn't mean that data is useable.

Doesn't even answer what i was asking in the first place, because asked "how many people that are 60 have killed rag", not "how many people entered mc and have killed rag".

According to Warcraft logs, 95% of all guilds that entered EP HC also killed Heroic Azshara.
Yet when i check Wowhead, only 22% of all profiles actually have AotC, so yeah, Warcraftlogs is not representative for the whole playerbase.

Organized groups (which always have logs) will breeze through MC easy time, no question about it.

In your set of data you simply have a massive blindspot, yet this blindspot is precisly what i'm interested in.
Let alone that pugs don't even show up in your data.



What you are basically saying is: The perception of difficulty varies from player to player.
What a revelation.

Well there's Alot of variables in there we won't ever know. What do you class as player base? We talking only active 60s cos there a non negligible ammount who dinged 60 and called it a day on classic. So are we talking only those who dinged 60 and kept playing?

[Kralljin]

Well there's Alot of variables in there we won't ever know. What do you class as player base? We talking only active 60s cos there a non negligible ammount who dinged 60 and called it a day on classic. So are we talking only those who dinged 60 and kept playing?

I'd use the same standard that people use on retail whenever they flail over "Heroic / Mythic is only cleared bx x% of playerbase".
Which seemingly seems to take a straight cut through the playerbase.

[tauntor]

Many guilds wiped a lot in MC. I'm sure that Naxx will be a worthy challenge for casual players. For nolifers? Not so much, but who cares?

Exactly this. Im a casual player but I do put in a ton of hours a day playing. (I have 3 level 60s already) I love the difficulty level of the raids. Difficult content doesnt mean more fun. Ive never had as much fun playing wow as I have in classic. Retail wow is fun for that best 10% of players. Maybe thats why only 10% of the subs they had previously still play.

[Whistl3r]

Exactly this. Im a casual player but I do put in a ton of hours a day playing. (I have 3 level 60s already) I love the difficulty level of the raids. Difficult content doesnt mean more fun. Ive never had as much fun playing wow as I have in classic. Retail wow is fun for that best 10% of players. Maybe thats why only 10% of the subs they had previously still play.

Couldn't give a single fuck what goes on outside of my guild. Cool for you if you clear Naxx on day 1. I'll be getting weeks out of entertainment out of it.

[Monster Hunter]

I'd use the same standard that people use on retail whenever they flail over "Heroic / Mythic is only cleared bx x% of playerbase".
Which seemingly seems to take a straight cut through the playerbase.

That data is gathered via the armoury api and achivments.

Classic dosnt have that, unless it's hidden somewhere.