Please tell me how Nightborne being monks before druids makes sense?

[Amnaught]

Blizzard seems to bring only dual druid combinations Tauren/Nightelf, Druid/Worgen, Zandalari/Kul'Tiran so there was no way they would do Voidelf/Lightforged Druids :P

Uhhhhhh we broke that trend with Highmountain Tauren, broskie, Horde already has more druids

[Syegfryed]

Just like Chinese humans and indian are not the same race because their eyes and skin colour are slightly different, and one tends to be shorter than other.. when you look at nightborne and night elves, one's ear tips turn up and the other tapers, the only other noticeable physical difference is slight colour variation and one is skinnier than the other.

Not rly, you are entering in another approach who its not the same

night elf is a race of elves

nightborne is another race of elves

just like blood elves are another race of elves, end of history

Both are night based elves, directly related and connected to each others.. but sure they're not the same race, because the nightwell changed the appearance of

they didn't just change "appearance" they change their bodies and more that alone is enough to prove they are no longer the same race, they are another race/specie of elves, they are not night elves anymore, they mutated and mutation is the base for new races/species to appear

The way I view it, is that they're not the same ethnicity

neither the same race, you can't compare a different humans in this case, its not rly the same thing, we are essentially still humans, the elves not

[Razion]

Training as a druid is supposed to take a long time. Picking up brewing or martial arts is a lot quicker by comparison.

[Amnaught]

Ugh, I don't need Nightborne being Druids so they become straight up Night Elf copy cats. I'd prefer them becoming Paladins first so they remain more like Blood Elves.

Nah, they shouldnt even have priests. They are much less religious/faithful than other elves

[Shakana]

It’s actually a very good thing Druidism is no longer tied to night elves because elves are the weakest link in Warcraft’s lore. Nothing close to the depth and appeal of Tolkien elves Blizzard tried so hard to replicate.

I don't think so, i prefer a nelf than a blood elf anytime of the day. I just don't like to play on alliance, so i like elves on horde.
I like their theme alot, and i like their lifestyle. I also love magical places and beautiful music. "Nightsong" is one of the best tracks ever in wow history. And it's nice seeing night elves keep their contact with nature.

Night elves just don't have like a lore following them for a long time, if Tyrande turned into a night warrior, that's already a trophy... But they still are behind when it comes to "new lore" or importance of their race in nowadays wow. And Tyrande also lost against Nathanos. She lost Ysera, too. Her people due to Sylvanas genocide. Like, she fails to protect those who needs protection and now she is trying to get revenge, and all this is still not good for night elves. They seem yes, the weakest link.

But i love them and i hope they can do more.


This song is the most iconic thing on wow when i think about wow i think about this, and that after the soundtrack:

[Caerule]

You do have to realize that the Nightborne have to start from scratch here. Pandaren are actively spreading their teachings, but all you need for that is a Nightborne that wants to master hand-to-hand combat better.

Druidism is a much more cultural change. And being a gardener is nothing like being a druid. Gardeners shape nature to suit them. The Nightborne ones especially. Being a druid is the opposite. It's where you shape yourself to become a part of the wilds.

The Night Elves have long had a leg up in this. Not only because of their lifestyle, but the teachings of natural forces like Ancients and being connected to the Emerald Dream through the World Tree for 10.000 years of history and teaching.

Meanwhile the Nightborne have been cut off from the wilds and any sense of nature and the natural balance for 10.000 years. They don't know forests, animals or ecosystems. They are nature-illiterate.

So yeah, they may hold some gratitude to the wildmen that helped their salvation. But that doesn't mean they are ready or of the right mindset to abandon city life and become one with the natural world. Especially not right off the bat.

[Psykho]

I guess someone didn't read Chronicles. Before Malfurion we had: yaungol, Zandalari, dark trolls, valewalkers and many other kinds of druid.

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Priests of Gonk were exactly druids. Cenarius doesn't have copyrights for druidism.

No. It turned out that they learned druidism before even evolving to tauren.

This doesn't mean that they can't have druids.

They were never Druids till Gonk introduced the technique of worshipping multiple loa at once, which didn't happen till Wrath at the earliest
As for concerning the Yaungol I shall quote Wowpedia's page on Druids
"According to tauren mythology, Cenarius (the patron for all druids) instructed them first in druidism as recounted in their myth Forestlord and the First Druids. As it stands, the night elves claim the first druid was Malfurion Stormrage, an idea challenged by the tauren beliefs. This is clarified in Chronicle. Cenarius did live among yaungol, the ancestors to the tauren, when they settled near the Well of Eternity between the 12,000 and 11,900 BDP, but Malfurion was the first to be trained in the ways of the druid, around year 10,000 BDP. This is why Malfurion is referred to as the first mortal druid. The yaungol could thus be compared to the early humans who used crude nature magic, a primitive sort of druidism, like the Gilnean harvest-witches. A similar case can be said about Valewalker Farodin, who was a student of an ancient order of keepers predating the druidic traditions of the night elves, and not full druids themselves"
and on the topic of Highmountain specifically you presented the horns of Eche'ro as proof they were naturally druids before Malfurion I was merely pointing out it was far from the truth

[Mehrunes]

Farodin isn't even a Druid. Which was pointed out to you a boatload of times during your way too many threads on how Nightborne are Night Elves at a different stage of nightelvennessness.

[ravenmoon]

You do have to realize that the Nightborne have to start from scratch here. Pandaren are actively spreading their teachings, but all you need for that is a Nightborne that wants to master hand-to-hand combat better.

Druidism is a much more cultural change. And being a gardener is nothing like being a druid. Gardeners shape nature to suit them. The Nightborne ones especially. Being a druid is the opposite. It's where you shape yourself to become a part of the wilds.

The Night Elves have long had a leg up in this. Not only because of their lifestyle, but the teachings of natural forces like Ancients and being connected to the Emerald Dream through the World Tree for 10.000 years of history and teaching.

Meanwhile the Nightborne have been cut off from the wilds and any sense of nature and the natural balance for 10.000 years. They don't know forests, animals or ecosystems. They are nature-illiterate.

So yeah, they may hold some gratitude to the wildmen that helped their salvation. But that doesn't mean they are ready or of the right mindset to abandon city life and become one with the natural world. Especially not right off the bat.

Then how are worgen and trolls druids, they had no druidic culture, neither did the Tauren, if I remember correctly, Malfurion teaches Hammuul Runetotem after WC3, and over time more Tauren disciples come along (If I remember correctly, it wasn't a popular move to the pure shamanistic Tauren society at the time, over time it came to be accepted, I believe seeral sources talk about the initial struggle) . Their culture at the point has no druidsm. Poin t is I don't see how botanists somehow disqualify the nightborne, and I would think Farodin and the Suramar refugees from Val'sharah would point to it.


Your analaysis and points aren't wrong, it's all subjective. True the nightborne could feel that way, though there isn't any indication though of this, if they think of druids as wildmen and reject them for it, then what do they think of the rest of the horde? THat's why I am not entirely inclined to agree with your assessment, though I accept it is possible, it is improbably along with no instances of that view of druidsm being prevalent.


But I know you are only trying to give possible reason as to why this is the case. BUt I think in this case it is bad choice by blizzard or an oversight. Maybe it isn't, maybe it's part of a plan to come down the line, but development constraints sometimes means things that may have come much soon end up taking years sometimes before we see them, but the plans or intentions were made years before.

- - - Updated - - -

Farodin isn't even a Druid. Which was pointed out to you a boatload of times during your way too many threads on how Nightborne are Night Elves at a different stage of nightelvennessness.

And what about the night elven druid refugees that join the Nightfallen rebellion too, are they not druids too? The whole point is druidsm and nature callers are orking with the nightborne, the Arcan'dor is symbol of balance of nature and the arcane, does that somehow disqualify nightborne from being able to qualify for druidsm when we see blizzard use weaker and wonkier criteria to bring Highmountain, Tauren, Worgen, Trolls into it. Excuse me for believing that this isn't any less likely for the nightborne given the things we are shown.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think so, i prefer a nelf than a blood elf anytime of the day. I just don't like to play on alliance, so i like elves on horde.

I like their theme alot, and i like their lifestyle. I also love magical places and beautiful music. "Nightsong" is one of the best tracks ever in wow history. And it's nice seeing night elves keep their contact with nature.

Night elves just don't have like a lore following them for a long time, if Tyrande turned into a night warrior, that's already a trophy... But they still are behind when it comes to "new lore" or importance of their race in nowadays wow. And Tyrande also lost against Nathanos. She lost Ysera, too. Her people due to Sylvanas genocide. Like, she fails to protect those who needs protection and now she is trying to get revenge, and all this is still not good for night elves. They seem yes, the weakest link.

But i love them and i hope they can do more.


This song is the most iconic thing on wow when i think about wow i think about this, and that after the soundtrack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6FfKXvZX8

I agree with what you've said. On the horde, they have given the higher and more complete magical fantasy of elves. Now I have felt that was unfair to the alliance who traditionally was the home of the elves, but it's their lore and they've changed.

SEeing it on the horde, I don't begrudge horde elves getting druidsm especially when I see the nature love, presence and connection. The blood elves have a very foresty home, forest love, as well as the high fantasy magical city. The night elves were written with this too, except their cities were destroyed, and most of their remnant were in forests. Suramar brought one of their ancient cities back, with a sub-race of their people, they are also in an area with a forest, have tree and grove tenders, interact with druids who help them and work with them.. and yet despite their night elven nature somehow can't be druids I feel is an oversight.

I don't see anything wrong with Nightborne becoming druids, nor blood elves through learning from nightborne - it's like saying blood elves can't become paladins because that's mainly a human thing. Nor do I see a reason why an excuse can't be found for void elves to become druids.

In my opinion, mage, priest, druid and lock are the 4 magical classes, the first 3 should be an Elven staple. MAge is the arcane expression, Priest is the divine/religious expression and druid is the nature expression of magic - These are the 3 areas all elves should have. I would also give them all warlocks but in different ways, for night elves warlocks would come through the Illidari (demon hunter race), i.e. when you click on Warlock and Demon hunter you get the Illidari customisation. I would also set up specific lore for Blood elf warlocks and void elf warlocks - because this is a very sensitive thing to the elven people. Just like we have the night people having an Elune focused priesthood (deity related), while the Thalassian ones having a Light (or void) focused priesthood (essence related).


I feel it was an interesting move to make druidsm Elven in Warcraft, it felt different from shamanism with different emphasis and approaches to natural forces, including ways they used them. Societal wise, druids in Warcraft were elven lovers and scholars of nature, caring and loving plant and animal life. In Shamanism, shaman were leaders sort of pseudo chief/priests but of natural forces, they viewed them with reverence and respect and had a bargaining with the spiritual elemental forces of them, rather than the elven scientific approach borne out of love. This si why one is more concerned with elements to aid their village or help their fights whether it be rains for crops, or averting natural disasters and is tied into ancestral worship, while the other actually loves the feel of nature, tranquillity, love of flowers and plants, and animals seeing them ore as friends than tools,

They had the perfect lore set up for it too, animals around the well of eternity grew to be more intelligent, so the elves could have closer relationship and love for them, the trees also awoke and they had interactions with ancients etc, this is absent from the shamanic societies. Cenarius has a much heavier involvement in the early development of the arcane based night elves and is drawn by this new races love for nature and magic - this is stated in the lore

It is in the inception of the elven race, and the high elves, blood elves, as well as the night elves in the height of their arcane power nor the nightborne nor shen'dralar night elves do not give any indication of a hate or disparaging of nature, but blizzard continue to show ample evidence of love and appreciation for nature. So I have every reason to believe the love of nature carries on to the various elven off shoots - WC2 impression of high elves was almost all predominantly foresty and Ranger/archer mode sets, and even in TBC you see Quel'thalas treants and ancients.

So I don't see why they shouldn't become druids, or why the druid class should be missing from all but one of the elven groups. To me it's an oversight. Quel'thalas was established to be a place where all magic was practised freely and safely, (including but not limited to the banned arcan - yet somehow this nuance is forgotten in the class development team).

- - - Updated - - -

I'm fine with the races having different versions of druidsm, the night elven version of druidsm should spread to the nightborne, void elves and blood elves - with its more arcane/solar nature magical emphasis as well as healing and tree love.

Kul'tiran druidsm has it's own unique drust vibe and feel to it, and even if it's roots date back from Vrykul interaction with Cenarius/Malfurion it's developed in a unique way, and this is fine.

Trolls have a different and unique approach which is also acceptable, a druid is a special kind of Loa priests, and troll druids have trained with the Cenarion circle to expand knowledge, this iis fine, and it is equally fine if the expression shifts mainly to the unique Zandalari one now that Gonk is approachable.

This leaves Worgen and Tauren also based on the night elven druidsm. This is fine, a lot of lore historoically ties Cenarius and the tauren, although it's hunting that's the emphasis not star/moon and sun magic, - so the more Guardian bear form aspect I think is the vein that should be most emphasiszed

Now worgen had the harvest witch tradition, however the night elf help brought a night elf basis to their druidsm, but still allows a different emphasis for it, harvest witches were more about medical remedies and crop growth, where as the worgen is more of a hunter predator in it's nature, the form created to fight a war. This allows it to also have it's own unique night elven branch focusing on the cat form which I really feel should be a dire wolf

[baskev]

I don't understand why this didn't happen. Valewalker Farodin's close and integral role with the nightborne as well as the Val'sharah druids and priest refugees who join them up, not to mention the very active Botanists who work with nature magic amongst the nightborne...


This demonstrates both an aptitude for nature and relationships with druids who are actively help and like them. Valewalker Farodin is fond of them. Furthermore you see they have members that love nature, why aren't they druids?

The Arcan'dor the centre of their new identity replacing the Nightwell with its dual arcane/nature composition

How the F*** are they able to be monks before druids...?


I don't understand...? Druidsm in wow no longer efels elven, seriously 1 out of 6 playable druids are elves. It feels more a troll/tauren thing now. I use to feel druidsm was the elven equivalent of other races shamanism, a more intellectual approach to nature full of elven softness and love for the beauty of nature.. it has that tone for it. Whiles shamanism felt more Tauren/orc/troll like - based not on love but on respect/fear for nature of w hich the lements are a major part of (just as when we think of natural sources, we think of wind, storms earthquakes, as well as trees and animals - it's all part of nature in our understanding).

Anyway, druidsm in wow had a distinct elven feel to it that it has lost by the failure to bring it to the other elven groups. The most likely candidate were the nightborne.

Euuuuh how about lightforged being death knights. Or void elves? Those make more sense that they do not fitt then nightborne not being druids.

I will give you a reason now why nightborn And blood elves can not be druids. Both have a other source of their power. That both feeds/corrupts them. Think that is enough for them not to be able to be druids.

[ravenmoon]

Euuuuh how about lightforged being death knights. Or void elves? Those make more sense that they do not fitt then nightborne not being druids.

I will give you a reason now why nightborn And blood elves can not be druids. Both have a other source of their power. That both feeds/corrupts them. Think that is enough for them not to be able to be druids.

Well your point about lightforged being death knights or void elves does make the point that nightborne druids is not the least likely class combination by a long shot, and my point was that it has legitimate reason to be.


However your point about corruption is not true for all the nightborne or blood elves. Nightborne didn't corrupt a naaru or feed on fel power, they over indulged on a pure source of arcane power for a longer period and greater extent than normal kaldorei society did in the pre-sundering era, because their circumstances placed them in that position (their city was low on food resources, and they solved the problem by literally feeding off a pure arcane source in a clever adaptation albeit crude and not really natural way) this caused the twisting of their body to the skinny form we have and caused the curse they would endure when cut off from it. It wasn't a corruption really, but an abuse that gets healed thanks to nature balancing work with the arcane a project the VAlewalker order was working on gets perfected by the druid Valewalker Farodin.

So I don't think that is sufficient enough reason, and we see that even in a blood elf society where some corrupt powers, there are others who do not, the blood elves had a redemption arc remember, they may have once done that, but even then not all did it, and many who did turned away and started using some of their magics correctly in a non corrupt/feed way.

Who's to say some of those would be disqualified from becoming druids?

I have come to accept lightforged and void elf DKs I guess because if any race dies, when it is raised by death powers, it would have a natural affinity for death powers above the powers it's body in life was more naturally attuned to, whether that be arcane, nature, light, void, elemental etc. Therefore any race or class once killed and raised to undeath can become a death knight. - At least that is how I view it.

[scubi666stacy]

It’s actually a very good thing Druidism is no longer tied to night elves because elves are the weakest link in Warcraft’s lore. Nothing close to the depth and appeal of Tolkien elves Blizzard tried so hard to replicate.

Technically, Warcraft is a Warhammer clone. There are High Elves (=Blood Elves in WoW), and Wood Elves (=Night Elves in WoW). Night Elves do a good job in depicting Wood Elves.

Anyway, Nightborne are an arcane society, thus more fitting for Mages and Warlocks than for Druids. This was probably the reasoning. Though I really don't care about Nightborne Druids. I would play one if Blizzard would introduce the class at some later point, but I don't have a special need. I already have 5 Druid characters.

[Aucald]

Shal'dorei society is one modeled along the lines of the ancient Night Elves, those who had largely given up the path of Druidism and considered those who followed it to be back-woods yokels and/or primitives. I would imagine that is why modern-day Nightborne likely eschew Druidism, but are otherwise okay with the path of the Monk. Though I also imagine that Nightborne Monks are probably a curiosity on their own culture, like urban primitives or starving artists, in a sense.

[ravenmoon]

Shal'dorei society is one modeled along the lines of the ancient Night Elves, those who had largely given up the path of Druidism and considered those who followed it to be back-woods yokels and/or primitives. I would imagine that is why modern-day Nightborne likely eschew Druidism, but are otherwise okay with the path of the Monk. Though I also imagine that Nightborne Monks are probably a curiosity on their own culture, like urban primitives or starving artists, in a sense.

That's an intersting way of looking at it. Although I don't entirely agree.

Kaldorei pre-sundering society left druidsm behind because of the power and attraction of an arcane with limitless resources, power and no drawbacks, with a Queen that promoted it above everything else, displaying it's incredible power ... I feel all those parameters have that allowed that state have changed.

No queen, an arcane having noticeable drawbacks (addiction and the curse as examples of drawbacks), and nature wielders achieving breath taking feats.

There is also the affinity and love of nature as an inherent part of the elf... something i dont' believe any night elf's transition to the more night state of nightborne or to the devolved high elf stated changed or removed either.

Today's nightborne like the current Darnassians who had to face a post sundering world would have many previously held views challenged and changed, this is noticeable in Thalyssra for example telling Valtrois to accept the foreign hero (not be dismissive or arrogant showing her mind set that she eschews throughout her leadership), and I also feel their acceptance of both the blood elves and the horde demonstrates this. It is not because of "superiority" in any horde race that they accept the horde (becuase the nightborne were more advanced than all horde races), it was because the blood elves were willing to help them and show them the respect they felt they deserved, also sharing their values, meanwhile it is hinted that others "reluctantly" helped.. so it is not primitive vs urbanised situation here, although i can see why people might hink so, you have to bear in mind the alliance has Highborne and high elves too as well as draenei, - (lest anyone think that horde membership was because of blood elf advanced state)

The power of druidsm is quite evident to them also as it is this that saves the nightborne, furthremore the exploits whcich they would now have heard of, like the world tress, reshaping of the evolution of a world, cloaking a continent, defeating the Burning LEgion, reshaping the wilds - nature wielders of the craft have achieved things no one with the arcane has been able to wield, I highly doubt a sensible nightborne would reject nature like the kaldorei did at the end of Azshara's reign now having seen it's power.

There is also the point that if you can have social pariahs (urban primitives/starving artists - not a new thing to Suramar - remember Malfurion was such in that very city 10k years ago) that can have monks as you say it, why can't the botanists have some or all amongst them willing to enhance their knowledge with druidsm? If the Arcnaists look down on druidsm, why would the botanists do the same when their line of work is something that benefits and comes in leaps and bounds with druidsm? WE have seen examples of a society having diverse interests with some groups looking down on others or no, and that does not necessarily influence or stop those from happening (if you feel eschewing or contempt for druidsm might be a factor) - Kaldorei involvement of druidsm and its development is certainly one that can change a nightborne's point of view like it has inevitably changed some of the highborne, and if it must be reminded there was a point in the kaldorei past were both druidsm and arcanists as well as priests were around and equally respected and revered for what they ddi in their fields. I believe the ending of addiction removes a lot of the source for the disdain and contempt, as well as working together. Addiction accounted for the arrogance of the pre-sundering night elf during the end of Azshara's reign of everything - not just other professions, but other races. The current highborne, nightborne have all been shown to have enough people past this and seeing the effectiveness of others disciplines for that not to play a factor.

In other words, seeing druidism saves you , your people have an affinity for nature, and is demonstrably quite powerful I don't see iit not happening because of the disdain the kaldorei had in pre-sundering times. I see that contempt being the one to shift with the healing of addiction and the exposure to the effectiveness of other disciplines like druidsm. The fact that the High Botnatists and a whole team of nightborne wield nature druidic powers is an indcitationo that even in their stuffy contemtpable pre 7.2 state, this was on e of the few non-arcane magical fields that were prevalent.

I don't see the current events of 7.0 making progress in this field less likely, but rather more, for all the reasons above.


My point is that, druidsm is quite feasible from every possible way you can look at it, and while it is quite possible as well for them not to take it up or have it, they have a good case for it. Nightborne becoming druids would not feel like an arse pull at all, and in the light of their storyline and their heritage, is conceivable.

[Selastan]

1. They were locked into a city. The Night Elves at the time of the Sundering weren't very nature loving. They were all about their arcane empire. And those that WERE in touch with nature were off in Hyjal or other sacred places. Suramar was one of the arcane capitals of their empire, finding a druid there would be like finding a farmer in Tokyo.

2. Pretty much all Night Elf druids are part of Malfurion's specific school. Druidism wasn't really part of their culture, it was Malfurion who learned from Cenarius, and he taught others. Druidism is an ingrained part of the religions of other races, while it took the Sundering for most Night Elves to join Malfurion's cult out of fear. Elven druids just don't make that much sense, unless they are specifically Night Elves of Kalimdor.

3. They have other ways of manipulating nature. Druidism requires a connection to the Emerald Dream, and why go through that when you can just use the arcane to bend nature to your will, and even fuse nature to the arcane?

[Tharivor]

Because the Nightborne, like most Highborne, rejected druidism before the War of the Ancients. There is absolutely no reason why they would want to reform their entire society just because a single proto-druid with no interest in recruiting disciples helped one of their leaders during the rebellion.

I know from previous threads that you have a strong desire for some kind of nature-arcane elven society, but this does not seem to be something any in-universe elves actually want. Quite realistically each elven culture is more interested in preserving their own centuries-long distinct culture and traditions, rather than throwing it all out the window for something new.

[matrix123mko]

They were never Druids till Gonk introduced the technique of worshipping multiple loa at once, which didn't happen till Wrath at the earliest

He taught that Darkspear to beat Zalazane. Zandalari had their Raptari long before.

As for concerning the Yaungol I shall quote Wowpedia's page on Druids
"According to tauren mythology, Cenarius (the patron for all druids) instructed them first in druidism as recounted in their myth Forestlord and the First Druids. As it stands, the night elves claim the first druid was Malfurion Stormrage, an idea challenged by the tauren beliefs. This is clarified in Chronicle. Cenarius did live among yaungol, the ancestors to the tauren, when they settled near the Well of Eternity between the 12,000 and 11,900 BDP, but Malfurion was the first to be trained in the ways of the druid, around year 10,000 BDP. This is why Malfurion is referred to as the first mortal druid. The yaungol could thus be compared to the early humans who used crude nature magic, a primitive sort of druidism, like the Gilnean harvest-witches. A similar case can be said about Valewalker Farodin, who was a student of an ancient order of keepers predating the druidic traditions of the night elves, and not full druids themselves"

"Primitive" druidism is enough to justify a playable class.

and on the topic of Highmountain specifically you presented the horns of Eche'ro as proof they were naturally druids before Malfurion I was merely pointing out it was far from the truth

No. I said that current Highmountain are naturally druids while night elves are not.

[Aucald]

That's an intersting way of looking at it. Although I don't entirely agree.

Kaldorei pre-sundering society left druidsm behind because of the power and attraction of an arcane with limitless resources, power and no drawbacks, with a Queen that promoted it above everything else, displaying it's incredible power ... I feel all those parameters have that allowed that state have changed.

No queen, an arcane having noticeable drawbacks, and nature wielders achieving breath taking feats.

There is also the affinity and love of nature as an inherent part of the elf... something i dont' believe any night elf's transition to the more night state of nightborne or to a high elf changes either.

The Shal'dorei are still deeply reverent towards the Arcane, even more so than the ancient Night Elves of yore as they've literally drank the essence of Arcane energy from a Titan World-Soul and had their very beings infused with its essence. I don't think either Azshara or Elisande are really a constituent of that, as ancient Night Elven society had embraced the Arcane well before the coming of Azshara. I don't think either the loss of Elisande nor the miracle of the Arcan'dor are going to change the society of the Nightborne effectively overnight, if at all.

Today's nightborne like the current Darnassians who had face a post sundering world would have many previous held views challenged and changed, this is noticeable in Tahlyssra for example telling Valtrois to accept the foreign hero, and their acceptance of both the blood elves and the horde demonstrates this, it is not becausee of superiority in any horde race that they accept the horde (becuase the nightborne were more advanced than all horde races), it was because the blood elves were willing to help them and show them the respect they felt they deserved, also sharing their values, meanwhile it is hinted that others "reluctantly" helped.. so it is not primitive vs urbanised situation here, although i can see why people might hink so, you have to bear in mind the alliance has Highborne and high elves too.

Which I would say is a different argument and/or topic as opposed to the Nightborne's lack of Druidism. Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion saw the need for outside help and aid beyond what they could provide for themselves, overcoming a degree of xenophobia to embrace the world once more. That's well and good on their parts, but doesn't really address that they are products of a society that has promoted the ascendancy of the Arcane for 10,000+ years. They're not going to change their stripes so completely, even if they have evolved somewhat following the close shave with the Legion and the Felborne.

The power of druidsm is quiteveident as it is this that saves the nightborne, furthremore the exploits whcich they would now have heard of, like the world tress, reshaping of the evolution of a world, cloaking a continent, defeating the Burning LEgion, reshaping the wilds - nature wielders of the craft have achieved things no one with the arcane has been able to wield, I highly doubt a sensible nightborne would reject nature like the kaldorei did at the end of Azshara's reign now having seen it's power.

One could say the same of Shamanism, another route to power that the Nightborne eschew. The Nightborne may indeed show an interest in Druidism in time, though it's highly likely they'll look at it through the lens of the Arcane as opposed to embracing Druidism in its entirety. The Arcan'dor itself is something of a union of the two philosophies - a tenuous and delicate balance of Nature and Arcane. I would have little to no doubt that the Nightborne would emphasize the Arcane side of the equation in the general sense, with a tipping of the proverbial hat to the Nature side without much in the way of exploring it.

THere is also the reality that if you can have social pariahs (urban primitives/starving artists - not a new thing to Suramar) that can have monks as you say it, why can't the botanists have some or all amongst them willing to enhance their knowledge with druidsm? If the Arcnaists look down on druidsm, why would the botanists do the same when their line of work is something that benefits and comes in leaps and bounds with druidsm?

And perhaps they do, to a much lesser degree. It would explain such individuals like High Botanist Tel'arn in the Nighthold raid, who seems to be a Druid in many ways, combined with Arcane abilities. Though this might also be under the file of exceptions that prove the general rule.

My point is that, druidsm is quite feasible from every possible way youc an look at it, and while it is quite possible as well for them not to take it up or have it, they have a good case for it. Nightborne becoming druids would not feel like an arse pull at all, and in the light of their storyline and their heritage, is conceivable.

It would require time, a lot more time than has currently passed, before Nightborne Druids became so regular a part of Shal'dorei society. I won't argue the potential is there, but right now in my view, the potential is all that's there.

[ravenmoon]

Because the Nightborne, like most Highborne, rejected druidism before the War of the Ancients. There is absolutely no reason why they would want to reform their entire society just because a single proto-druid with no interest in recruiting disciples helped one of their leaders during the rebellion.

I know from previous threads that you have a strong desire for some kind of nature-arcane elven society, but this does not seem to be something any in-universe elves actually want. Quite realistically each elven culture is more interested in preserving their own centuries-long distinct culture and traditions, rather than throwing it all out the window for something new.

This is not about what i had desires for in previous threads, lets be objective about it Tharavor.

People sometimes take your view that because the most highborne rejected druidsm before the war of ancietns.. you say "aboslutely no reasons"... i say that is an un reasonable assertion. Most highborne isn't all highborne, and if an arcane society like the kaldorei coudl adopt druidsm so wholeheartedly under the guidance of one mand who plays an instrumental role, including some highborne and Moonguard arcane users bear in mind as the story goes., then why is it aboslutely impossible for nightborne community (which isn't all highborne either) in the same pre-sundering spread, and having similar and dramatic changes, saved by druidsm, opened to possibilities that chalelnged atheir arorogantly held prejudices, not also have at least some ( ratehr than the whole society0 adopt said druidsm especially after it's power is now quite provable strongas shown in both the nightborne being saved and the feats of druidsm in saving the world and evolving that werne't visible to th epre-sundering kaldorei? Not to emntion the existint of the very visible botanist nature wielding core in the nighthold we have to fight, showing that of all the other disciplines around and magics, nature is the only other one present and wielded by the nightborne outside the arcane. We see evidence to support a mage class, hunter class, warrior and rogue class and druid class. Warlock class through the felborne. A priest class we imagine is possible via the historical Elune connection or possible blood elf light route but there is no evidence of it in the story, nor is there evidecne of monk class, we just see npcs turn up for that and it showing up in teh class selection.


I wouldn't say nightborne druidsm has "absolutely no reason" as you put it, to be.

[matrix123mko]

And what about the night elven druid refugees that join the Nightfallen rebellion too, are they not druids too? The whole point is druidsm and nature callers are orking with the nightborne, the Arcan'dor is symbol of balance of nature and the arcane, does that somehow disqualify nightborne from being able to qualify for druidsm when we see blizzard use weaker and wonkier criteria to bring Highmountain, Tauren, Worgen, Trolls into it. Excuse me for believing that this isn't any less likely for the nightborne given the things we are shown.

These night elven druids just have met nightborne a couple months ago. They are not huge part of their culture. Tauren and Worgen(who had witches anyway) are nature-based races and they are naturally better at druidism, so they learn faster. Compare that to human mages. Trolls, at the other hand, have been worshipping wild gods long before night elves came to existence. They had theoretical background for druidism due to their loa worship and friendship with tauren.

I agree that arcan'dor is important and interesting but nightborne need time to master new arcanic druidism. It requires inventing new way and night elves(who I doubt would help them) cannot help them much. Currently, it would make more sense to give druids to races that had more time to practise it, like Ironforge dwarves or Stormwind humans.

But yes, after Shadowlands we can get cool new druids. I would like that.